HD 7950 May Give Higher Framerates, but GTX 660 Ti Still Smoother: Report

btarunr · Dec 13, 2012, 04:40 AM

The TechReport, which adds latency-based testing in its VGA reviews, concluded in a recent retrospective review taking into account recent driver advancements, that Radeon HD 7950, despite yielding higher frame-rates than GeForce GTX 660 Ti, has higher latencies (time it takes to beam generated frames onto the display), resulting in micro-stutter. In response to the comments-drama that ensued, its reviewer did a side-by-side recording of a scene from "TESV: Skyrim" as rendered by the two graphics cards, and slowed them down with high-speed recording, at 120 FPS, and 240 FPS. In slow-motion, micro-stuttering on the Radeon HD 7950 is more apparent than on the GeForce GTX 660 Ti.

Find the slow-motion captures after the break.

Source: The TechReport

james888 · Dec 13, 2012, 04:51 AM

Interesting. I have never noticed anything with my 6950 or 7970, but I am not one for fine detail.

The testing system. http://techreport.com/review/23981/r...ti-revisited/2

The 7950 was better in sleeping dogs and medal of honor: Warfighter in their tests for latency. So it is not an always situation but in most cases.

Novulux · Dec 13, 2012, 04:56 AM

Considering I already have a Radeon Card, I suppose Radeon Pro will have to suffice...

Deadlyraver · Dec 13, 2012, 05:04 AM

Its just drivers, so quit endorsing and accept the numbers!

entropy13 · Dec 13, 2012, 05:07 AM

Remember also that they've addressed the "Windows 7 v. Windows 8" issue in a follow-up review too...

james888 · Dec 13, 2012, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy13

Remember also that they've addressed the "Windows 7 v. Windows 8" issue in a follow-up review too...

Here.

DaJMasta · Dec 13, 2012, 05:15 AM

Honestly, I don't see a dramatic difference in the amount of stutter between the two videos, and as someone who games at 60Hz, I'm never going to see most of what you can see here anyways.

It does sound like driver optimization to me more than anything else, but it could be less a case of "amd is faster but their drivers are worse" and more a case of "amd optimizes more for speed while nv optimizes more for less stutter" or something along those lines. Maybe there's even some hidden hitch in the CPU code for the drivers that is holding everything back.

Any particular reason why the AMD card drops to zero latency for the last few hundred frames of the chart, but the nV one doesn't?

BlackOmega · Dec 13, 2012, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btarunr

its reviewer did a side-by-side recording of a scene from "TESV: Skyrim"

And therein lies the problem. There are known problems with Skyrim and ATi cards.

This is skewed towards Nvidia to make them look better.

Deadlyraver · Dec 13, 2012, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackOmega

And therein lies the problem. There are known problems with Skyrim and ATi cards.

This is skewed towards Nvidia to make them look better.

Again, endorsement.

SIGSEGV · Dec 13, 2012, 05:27 AM

omg, i'm lil disappointed with TPU, why on earth you should post something like this. for me it's embarrassing

MxPhenom 216 · Dec 13, 2012, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackOmega

And therein lies the problem. There are known problems with Skyrim and ATi cards.

This is skewed towards Nvidia to make them look better.

With Nvidia Skyrim stutters with it too. Atleast from what I can tell. And My eyes catch any degree of stutter and hickups.

Protagonist · Dec 13, 2012, 05:47 AM

i read this yesterday, and i was like mmm...... now hows about that. And again i was like what does this have to do with anything.... maybe, maybe not something to worry about.

and now i see it in TPU,... this method might be on to something,... what it is might not seat well with consumers at the long run.

entropy13 · Dec 13, 2012, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackOmega

And therein lies the problem. There are known problems with Skyrim and ATi cards.

This is skewed towards Nvidia to make them look better.

That probably explains why Tech Report had an HD 7770 giveaway three weeks ago, an HD 7870 giveaway two weeks ago, and an HD 7950 giveaway last week.

And since you're quite insistent that there is an Nvidia bias, why not read this page about Sleeping Dogs, an "AMD Gaming Evolved" title?

AMD IS BETTER!!! NVIDIA SUCKS!!!

Not much difference, it's just a tie...

Oh...THAT'S NVIDIA'S FAULT!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

omg, i'm lil disappointed with TPU, why on earth you should post something like this. for me it's embarrassing

Video card reviews should just focus on framerates? Testing for latency is embarrassing?

SIGSEGV · Dec 13, 2012, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy13

:snip:
AMD IS BETTER!!! NVIDIA SUCKS!!!

meh..

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy13

Video card reviews should just focus on framerates? Testing for latency is embarrassing?

i believe you have no experience playing any games even skyrim with amd radeon HD7900 series. This news is kinda fishy for me.

crazyeyesreaper · Dec 13, 2012, 06:19 AM

would be more interesting to see how a stock non Boost 7950 handles the tests or a 7970 and 7970 GHz edition im willing to bet the clock speed changes which are more frequent on the 7950 boost compared to the 7970GHz edition cause latency issues.

from what i remember a 7950 clocked up is faster than a 7950 boost that hits the same clocks speeds do to 0 clock speed fluctuation.

There is more going on in the background that isnt being expanded upon and tested. Essentially it seems TR took the 1 AMD gpu thats had the roughest time out of all AMD products then used a model that brings in the boost variable and its potential problems that represents.

boulard83 · Dec 13, 2012, 06:39 AM

HardOCP are speeking about this "smoothness" from Nvidia setup for years now. Mostly when using multiGPU setup, multi monitor being even worse.

From Hardocp testing, you seem to need more FPS to have the same "smoothness feeling" while gaming VS Nvidia. They spoke about it lots of time on lots of reviews.

marsey99 · Dec 13, 2012, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btarunr

The TechReport, which adds latency-based testing in its VGA reviews, concluded in a recent retrospective review taking into account recent driver advancements, that Radeon HD 7950, despite yielding higher frame-rates than GeForce GTX 660 Ti, has higher latencies (time it takes to beam generated frames onto the display), resulting in micro-stutter. In response to the comments-drama that ensued, its reviewer did a side-by-side recording of a scene from "TESV: Skyrim" as rendered by the two graphics cards, and slowed them down with high-speed recording, at 120 FPS, and 240 FPS. In slow-motion, micro-stuttering on the Radeon HD 7950 is more apparent than on the GeForce GTX 660 Ti.

http://www.techpowerup.com/img/12-12-13/118a_thm.jpg

Find the slow-motion captures after the break.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/NLcq6IQz-sM?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/ZM043GqzRuk?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Source: The TechReport

they both stutter like fuck, whats the big deal?

GC_PaNzerFIN · Dec 13, 2012, 06:56 AM

Fanboys refuse to believe anything no matter how well you try to run your tests.

I was telling about micro stuttering with SLi/CF years ago but people went mad at me and refused to believe it exists. Same thing with HD5 series broken AF. Etc. etc.

HumanSmoke · Dec 13, 2012, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyeyesreaper

would be more interesting to see how a stock non Boost 7950 handles the tests or a 7970 and 7970 GHz edition im willing to bet the clock speed changes which are more frequent on the 7950 boost compared to the 7970GHz edition cause latency issues.
from what i remember a 7950 clocked up is faster than a 7950 boost that hits the same clocks speeds do to 0 clock speed fluctuation.

Doesn't make a helluva lot of difference imo. TR are only claiming the discrepancy regarding the 7950 Boost, they aren't extrapolating the results and saying it affects all models.
Having said that, given the standing that Scott has in the community, I'd say that someone will test the 7970, 7970GE etc. It wouldn't surprise me if AMD were optimizing for outright speed at all- that is the primary metric used in the majority of reviews, and a major bullet point in PR slides.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyeyesreaper

Essentially it seems TR took the 1 AMD gpu thats had the roughest time out of all AMD products then used a model that brings in the boost variable and its potential problems that represents.

AMD had no problem reaping the rewards of reviews using the all new 7950 Boost...are you saying that TR should gloss over any potential problem because the bulk of the other models are possibly OK ? HardOCP and Tom's Hardware amongst others are also reporting various issues in single/multi card configs- at what point do you say its worth reporting?

the54thvoid · Dec 13, 2012, 07:37 AM

Ooh another hate fest kicking up.

I get micro stutter on Fry Cry 3 with my crossfire 7970 set up, very noticeable when it should be butter smooth. But my friend with a GTX 680 also has graphical issues.

Micro stutter itself is a bit subjective. I've played games with fare worse with micro-stutter on AMD cards (according to Hard OCP) but haven't noticed any effect unlike FC 3 where it is considerably more apparent.

Meh, choose your card and see how you like it. Dishonored played beautifully on my cards. Such an awesomely well planned and coded game.

Wile E · Dec 13, 2012, 07:47 AM

I wonder if it's driver or hardware related?

I moved away from ATI after the issues I had with my 4870X2. I'd really like to see them fix these small issues. Then I'd consider buying them again.

AphexDreamer · Dec 13, 2012, 07:47 AM

Uh... Vsync anyone?

Frick · Dec 13, 2012, 07:49 AM

This is why we should all have low end rigs. When you think 40FPS is awesome you don't notice these things.

But I thought all of those videos looked weird. Especially the 240FPS ones looked plain wrong. At 120FPS Nvidia looked smoother, but still flaky.

entropy13 · Dec 13, 2012, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

i believe you have no experience playing any games even skyrim with amd radeon HD7900 series. This news is kinda fishy for me.

A high-speed camera is biased, unlike a human being like you?

They should have done the gameplay video comparison with Sleeping Dogs and not Skyrim, so that there won't be any "BUT WE ALL KNOW THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH AMD IN THE GAME!!!" because right off the bat a big "AMD Gaming Evolved" logo will appear once you run the game. And if they still insist that Sleeping Dogs is "skewed towards Nvidia" then that also implies that "AMD Gaming Evolved" was pointless, unless they then say that United Front Games intentionally made AMD perform worse in their game...

the54thvoid · Dec 13, 2012, 07:54 AM

I actually just watched the videos and I'm thinking "God that is pretty bad!" I was looking at the one on the right - the 660. lol

Actually yeah, this is very subjective. The AMD card craps out as the video goes on and the foliage gets closer to the camera view but to me the 660 starts out with more noticeable jerkiness between frames.

Having watched this, I don't think it's micro stutter I've got on FC3. Something more buggy methinks.

Dec 13, 2012, 04:40 AM	#1
btarunr Editor & Senior Moderator Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Hyderabad, India Posts: 14,983 (7.29/day) Thanks: 788 Thanked 12,911 Times in 5,655 Posts System Specs	HD 7950 May Give Higher Framerates, but GTX 660 Ti Still Smoother: Report The TechReport, which adds latency-based testing in its VGA reviews, concluded in a recent retrospective review taking into account recent driver advancements, that Radeon HD 7950, despite yielding higher frame-rates than GeForce GTX 660 Ti, has higher latencies (time it takes to beam generated frames onto the display), resulting in micro-stutter. In response to the comments-drama that ensued, its reviewer did a side-by-side recording of a scene from "TESV: Skyrim" as rendered by the two graphics cards, and slowed them down with high-speed recording, at 120 FPS, and 240 FPS. In slow-motion, micro-stuttering on the Radeon HD 7950 is more apparent than on the GeForce GTX 660 Ti. Find the slow-motion captures after the break. Source: The TechReport

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Dec 13, 2012, 04:51 AM	#2
james888 Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,288 (3.28/day) Thanks: 457 Thanked 431 Times in 321 Posts System Specs	Interesting. I have never noticed anything with my 6950 or 7970, but I am not one for fine detail. The testing system. http://techreport.com/review/23981/r...ti-revisited/2 The 7950 was better in sleeping dogs and medal of honor: Warfighter in their tests for latency. So it is not an always situation but in most cases. __________________ My Heat Natural Selection 2 (NS2) - FPS/RTS with depth. Link. Studios and publishers seem to have forgotten that games are supposed to be games, not CG films with playable action scenes. Link. Last edited by james888; Dec 13, 2012 at 05:01 AM.

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Dec 13, 2012, 04:56 AM	#3
Novulux Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 124 (0.24/day) Thanks: 4 Thanked 26 Times in 20 Posts System Specs	Considering I already have a Radeon Card, I suppose Radeon Pro will have to suffice...

Dec 13, 2012, 05:04 AM	#4
Deadlyraver Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 113 (0.20/day) Thanks: 19 Thanked 13 Times in 9 Posts System Specs	Its just drivers, so quit endorsing and accept the numbers! __________________ League of Legends' Penta Raver and so on as Demon Hunter! Add me! Deadlyraver

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Dec 13, 2012, 05:07 AM	#5
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Dec 13, 2012, 05:15 AM	#7
DaJMasta Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 473 (0.17/day) Thanks: 0 Thanked 37 Times in 21 Posts System Specs	Honestly, I don't see a dramatic difference in the amount of stutter between the two videos, and as someone who games at 60Hz, I'm never going to see most of what you can see here anyways. It does sound like driver optimization to me more than anything else, but it could be less a case of "amd is faster but their drivers are worse" and more a case of "amd optimizes more for speed while nv optimizes more for less stutter" or something along those lines. Maybe there's even some hidden hitch in the CPU code for the drivers that is holding everything back. Any particular reason why the AMD card drops to zero latency for the last few hundred frames of the chart, but the nV one doesn't?

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Dec 13, 2012, 05:27 AM	#10
SIGSEGV Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Bandung, Indonesia Posts: 363 (0.86/day) Thanks: 103 Thanked 73 Times in 45 Posts System Specs	omg, i'm lil disappointed with TPU, why on earth you should post something like this. for me it's embarrassing __________________ And if you hear me talking on the wind You've got to understand We must remain perfect strangers [Deep Purple - Perfect Strangers]

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Dec 13, 2012, 05:47 AM	#12
Protagonist Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 675 (0.68/day) Thanks: 18 Thanked 112 Times in 86 Posts System Specs	i read this yesterday, and i was like mmm...... now hows about that. And again i was like what does this have to do with anything.... maybe, maybe not something to worry about. and now i see it in TPU,... this method might be on to something,... what it is might not seat well with consumers at the long run.

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Dec 13, 2012, 06:19 AM	#15
crazyeyesreaper Chief Broken Rig Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: 04578 Posts: 6,016 (3.95/day) Thanks: 761 Thanked 2,225 Times in 1,559 Posts System Specs	would be more interesting to see how a stock non Boost 7950 handles the tests or a 7970 and 7970 GHz edition im willing to bet the clock speed changes which are more frequent on the 7950 boost compared to the 7970GHz edition cause latency issues. from what i remember a 7950 clocked up is faster than a 7950 boost that hits the same clocks speeds do to 0 clock speed fluctuation. There is more going on in the background that isnt being expanded upon and tested. Essentially it seems TR took the 1 AMD gpu thats had the roughest time out of all AMD products then used a model that brings in the boost variable and its potential problems that represents.

Dec 13, 2012, 06:39 AM	#16
boulard83 Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 256 (0.16/day) Thanks: 4 Thanked 54 Times in 41 Posts	HardOCP are speeking about this "smoothness" from Nvidia setup for years now. Mostly when using multiGPU setup, multi monitor being even worse. From Hardocp testing, you seem to need more FPS to have the same "smoothness feeling" while gaming VS Nvidia. They spoke about it lots of time on lots of reviews. __________________ • Le Québécois • • • BTTB • • • • EVGA X79 FTW • I7 3820 • PH-TC14PE • 16gb G.Skill 2133mhz • EVGA GTX 670 + Accelero TTII Tecnofront HWD BenchTable • Antec TPQ-1200-OC • 2x Agility 4 256gb • Surround Asus VE278Q 5760x1080 • • • • HTPC • • • • Asus Z77-m Pro • 2500K • NH-C12P • 2x4gb G.Skill Ares 1600mhz Asus GTX 650 TI • X25-M 80gb • Enermax Naxn 550w • Lian Li PC-C60B[b] Forum Québécois, si tu parles français !

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Dec 13, 2012, 06:56 AM	#18
GC_PaNzerFIN Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Finland Posts: 378 (0.29/day) Thanks: 22 Thanked 203 Times in 82 Posts System Specs	Fanboys refuse to believe anything no matter how well you try to run your tests. I was telling about micro stuttering with SLi/CF years ago but people went mad at me and refused to believe it exists. Same thing with HD5 series broken AF. Etc. etc. __________________ WE REQUIRE MORE HARDWARE

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Dec 13, 2012, 07:37 AM	#20
the54thvoid Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Scotland Posts: 2,068 (1.64/day) Thanks: 332 Thanked 874 Times in 508 Posts System Specs	Ooh another hate fest kicking up. I get micro stutter on Fry Cry 3 with my crossfire 7970 set up, very noticeable when it should be butter smooth. But my friend with a GTX 680 also has graphical issues. Micro stutter itself is a bit subjective. I've played games with fare worse with micro-stutter on AMD cards (according to Hard OCP) but haven't noticed any effect unlike FC 3 where it is considerably more apparent. Meh, choose your card and see how you like it. Dishonored played beautifully on my cards. Such an awesomely well planned and coded game.

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Sound Card:	On Board
PSU:	Seasonic Platinum 1000W
Software:	W7

Dec 13, 2012, 07:47 AM	#21
Wile E Power User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Western PA (Pittsburgh suburbs) Posts: 18,129 (7.47/day) Thanks: 450 Thanked 3,826 Times in 3,124 Posts System Specs	I wonder if it's driver or hardware related? I moved away from ATI after the issues I had with my 4870X2. I'd really like to see them fix these small issues. Then I'd consider buying them again. __________________ Visit Ashentech “What the hell did you expect? Leave Vista under the pillow and the OS fairy would make it Win7?” -El Fiendo “And Bring Mailman back god damnit, he is the Eric Cartman of TPU” -MRCL

System Name:	The ClusterF**k
Processor:	980X @ 4212Mhz 24/7
Motherboard:	Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD5 BIOS F12
Cooling:	MCR-320, DDC-1 pump w/Bitspower res top (1/2" fittings), Koolance CPU-360
Memory:	3x2GB Mushkin Redlines 1600Mhz 6-8-6-24
Video Card:	Evga GTX 580
Hard Disk:	Seagate 7200.10 320GB x2 RAID0; 2 x Samsung F2 1.5TB; 1 x F1 1TB; 1 x F4 2TB
Optical Drive:	LG WH10LS30K 10X Blu-ray Burner
CRT/LCD Model:	HP LP2475w 24" 1920x1200 IPS
Case:	Technofront Bench Station
Sound Card:	Auzentech X-Fi Forte into Onkyo SR606 and Polk TSi200's + RM6750
PSU:	ENERMAX Galaxy EVO EGX1250EWT 1250W
Software:	Win7 Ultimate N x64

Dec 13, 2012, 07:47 AM	#22
AphexDreamer Eligible for custom title Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: C:\Program Files (x86)\Aphexdreamer\ Posts: 5,614 (2.59/day) Thanks: 812 Thanked 888 Times in 674 Posts System Specs	Uh... Vsync anyone? __________________ Sent from my PC using chrome.

System Name:	Unknown
Processor:	AMD Bulldozer FX6100 @ 4.5Ghz
Motherboard:	Asus Crosshair V
Cooling:	ThermalRight Ultra Extreme 120 With two 120mm Fans/Heatsink and three 120 mm fans intake/outake
Memory:	8 GB of Rip Jaws DDR3 RAM 1680Mhz (8-9-8-24) 7.9 Rating
Video Card:	ASUS ROG MATRIX 5870 2GB GDDR5
Hard Disk:	Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s
Optical Drive:	HP DVD 840 Lightscribe DVD+/-Writer/CD-Writer & CD Drive
CRT/LCD Model:	AOC 23" @ 1920x1080
Case:	HAF X
Sound Card:	X Fi Titanium 5.1 Surround Sound
PSU:	750 Watt PP&C Silencer Black
Software:	Windows 8 Pro 64-bit

Dec 13, 2012, 07:49 AM	#23
Frick Fishfaced Nincompoop Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 7,901 (2.99/day) Thanks: 1,076 Thanked 1,449 Times in 1,155 Posts System Specs	This is why we should all have low end rigs. When you think 40FPS is awesome you don't notice these things. But I thought all of those videos looked weird. Especially the 240FPS ones looked plain wrong. At 120FPS Nvidia looked smoother, but still flaky. __________________ Typemachine: Acer Aspire One D250 \| Atom N280 1.6 Ghz \| 1GB DDR2 \| 160GB SATA \| 10.1' 1024 x 600 \| Lubuntu 12.10 Oldbox: HP D530 \| Pentium 4 2.8 Ghz \| 1GB DDR \| 40GB \| Windows XP "The 'gentle biker' look is overdone. I'm going for 'psycho hillbilly.' "

System Name:	Ongoing scavanging
Processor:	Sempron 140
Motherboard:	MSI 760GM-P23 (FX)
Cooling:	Somesuch
Memory:	2GB DDR3
Video Card:	Something
Hard Disk:	160GB + 1TB
Optical Drive:	Yes
CRT/LCD Model:	19" 1280 x 1024
Case:	Wossname
Sound Card:	Creative Audigy 2 ZS with front panel
PSU:	FSP400-60APN
Software:	Windows 7 Pro

Dec 13, 2012, 07:54 AM	#25
the54thvoid Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Scotland Posts: 2,068 (1.64/day) Thanks: 332 Thanked 874 Times in 508 Posts System Specs	I actually just watched the videos and I'm thinking "God that is pretty bad!" I was looking at the one on the right - the 660. lol Actually yeah, this is very subjective. The AMD card craps out as the video goes on and the foliage gets closer to the camera view but to me the 660 starts out with more noticeable jerkiness between frames. Having watched this, I don't think it's micro stutter I've got on FC3. Something more buggy methinks.

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