Phenoms Dell Transformation Project

[MxPhenom 216]

As many have seen in my "File Server over Network" thread. I have decided to rebuild one of my Dell Dimension Desktops from like 8-10 years ago into a Storage/VMHost Server to play with VMs and have back up storage locally over the network to store all my 1GB+ GoPro videos I make from Snowboarding, Mountain biking, and Motocross in. I spend over 5 hours on the videos when I edit them.

The whole reason im doing this, and some have already told me its a waste of time and you can just get a cloud storage thing, but I am specifically doing this because ever since I got into computer building about 5 years ago when I was 14 I have wanted to rebuild a system in one of these cases. I also want a place to store my videos, since my main rig is changing all the time, and it would be shitty to lose all the work in my videos. And last reason is because I want to learn how to do things over network, and play with VMs to expand my knowledge on those too.

Anyways so on to the things you all care about. The Hardware and pictures. I tried to make this build the cheapest possible (and most power efficient/performance) with spending just $250 on main parts like the PSU, memory, CPU, and motherboard, and some cooling fans for the case. Hard drives have not been purchased yet, waiting for next pay day.

Hardware Specs of Server:

Intel Pentium G630 2.7GHZ
Asrock H77M H77 Board(to do Hardware Raid 1)
PNY 8GB 1600mhz ram
Corsair CX430M Modular Edition PSU
My Vertex 2 90GB SSD for OS
2x Western Digital 2TB Reds in RAID 1 Array
Windows 8 Pro (For Hyper V)


Anyways Pictures will be up in a bit.

**Updated Specs**

[MxPhenom 216]

Okay, Sorry for the very blurry pictures. I tend to get some tremors when I build systems. I really need a tri-pod for my camera haha.




Old Dell parts thrown out of the case. Want any of it? Let me know. P4 Socket 478 platform.


Installed the PSU and Rear 92mm Gelid 1500rpm fan.


I love Gigabyte motherboards. They are my go to board for most systems.


The little beast.


Most of it all installed. Waiting on the drives now.

[newtekie1]

I'm interested to see how you handle the front panel connectors, since most of the Dells I see use special connectors for the buttons/LEDs and audio connections. Unless you got lucky and they used the standard connectors.

Originally Posted by MxPhenom 216

Explanation on the WD Reds: People seem to have a misconception about the WD Red drives(Not naming names, but they are from TPU Forums) where they are specifically meant for NAS system because of their firmware. However I have been researching these drives the last week or so, and the Western Digital website says the Red drives have code in the firmware to make the COMPADIBLE with NAS storage system, nothing about them not working with normal Windows systems. I also work with guys at Microsoft that have massive file servers at home and use Red drives with zero issues on a Windows or WIndows Server OS. The thing with the Red drives is that they have special parts in them for improved durability, which is what you want in a NAS system, and this also applies to normal computers as well.

While I agree with most of that, I don't believe they have any special parts in them to make them any more durable. AFAIK, the Red drives are nothing more than WD-Green drives with special firmware that allows them to be more compatible with RAID configurations.

Though according to WD, their standard desktop drives support 2 disk RAID arrays, while their Red and RE drives are for arrays with 3 disks or more.

[MxPhenom 216]

Originally Posted by newtekie1

I'm interested to see how you handle the front panel connectors, since most of the Dells I see use special connectors for the buttons/LEDs and audio connections. Unless you got lucky and they used the standard connectors.



While I agree with most of that, I don't believe they have any special parts in them to make them any more durable. AFAIK, the Red drives are nothing more than WD-Green drives with special firmware that allows them to be more compatible with RAID configurations.

Though according to WD, their standard desktop drives support 2 disk RAID arrays, while their Red and RE drives are for arrays with 3 disks or more.

Either way the point im trying to make about them, is that they work fine with Windows in Raid configs, and if your making a storage server then they really are a no brainer since they have better capabilities when it comes to raid arrays.

I wont be using anything on the front panel other then maybe the USB. The front power won't work which is why I bought a new power cable/button thing from Apevia for temperary use. I want to get a full power switch like one of these at some point.

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...ducts_id=23261

[ThE_MaD_ShOt]

You are giving me some ideals of what to use the old dell system I have in the closet for.

[Frick]

Yes I want the old hardware.

Which Dimension is that?

[newtekie1]

Originally Posted by MxPhenom 216

Either way the point im trying to make about them, is that they work fine with Windows in Raid configs, and if your making a storage server then they really are a no brainer since they have better capabilities when it comes to raid arrays.

I wont be using anything on the front panel other then maybe the USB. The front power won't work which is why I bought a new power cable/button thing from Apevia for temperary use. I want to get a full power switch like one of these at some point.

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...ducts_id=23261

I definitely get your point, I'm just saying they aren't really any more durable. I've used them a lot in normal computers, they definitely aren't just for NAS use. I've been using the WD Red or Seagate SV35 drives when I've built RAID arrays. Generally I pick whichever is cheapest, but the SV35 drives are slightly faster since they are 7200RPM drives.

Oh yeah, this is that build. I just made the connection. I recommended you the Aprevia power button.

[MxPhenom 216]

Originally Posted by Frick

Yes I want the old hardware.

Which Dimension is that?

Dimension 3000

[cadaveca]

Originally Posted by MxPhenom 216

Explanation on the WD Reds: People seem to have a misconception about the WD Red drives(Not naming names, but they are from TPU Forums) where they are specifically meant for NAS system because of their firmware. However I have been researching these drives the last week or so, and the Western Digital website says the Red drives have code in the firmware to make the COMPADIBLE with NAS storage system, nothing about them not working with normal Windows systems. I also work with guys at Microsoft that have massive file servers at home and use Red drives with zero issues on a Windows or WIndows Server OS. The thing with the Red drives is that they have special parts in them for improved durability, which is what you want in a NAS system, and this also applies to normal computers as well.

First, you can say it was me, no problem.

Second..the firmware lowers error correction on the drive, and leaves it up to the controller(for RAID mode, prevents both the drive and controller fighting about who does the correction).

Also, the drive head doesn't park, so if jostled, damage is easier. The drive uses a varied spin rate instead. Around 5100-5900 RPM.

Secondly, that error correction feature(or lack thereof) is intended for use with RAID controllers, and you bought a board without RAID control, hence my recommendation for green drives.

Yes, that board, and any H61 controller...does not do RAID.


It is also just SATA 3 Gb/s, not SATA 6 Gb/s.



I make recommendations based on deployment. Your deployment is flawed.

Here's the board's product page. Don't worry, next time I won't offer you any help. I guess you won't be doing RAID like you planned either.

2x Western Digital 2TB Reds in RAID 1 Array

+

4 x SATA 3Gb/s connectors supporting up to 4 SATA 3Gb/s devices

= you FAILED.





http://www.gigabyte.us/products/prod...px?pid=4065#sp

WD REDs in RAID? You bet. As a SINGLE DRIVE? Not that great of an idea...you'll have near zero error correction. mkay?





From this point forth you shall be my example of someone asking for help, doing the opposite, and then running into problems. This is bloody great! Subb'd!!! :P You should have got the AMD rig, and avoided all of these problems, since that platform is much better featured.

[TheMailMan78]

MxPhenom 216.......

I mean really, you just threw good money after bad. Why didnt you just get a damn NAS as EVERYONE told you.

[MxPhenom 216]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

MxPhenom 216.......

I mean really, you just threw good money after bad. Why didnt you just get a damn NAS as EVERYONE told you.

No one told me to get a NAS lol. I don't know where you have been, but they haven't.

[Bo$$]

Originally Posted by cadaveca

I guess you won't be doing RAID like you planned either.

you can't do soft raid on these machines?

[cadaveca]

Originally Posted by Bo$$

you can't do soft raid on these machines?

Of course.

But...

Not with proper error correction, and you'll be taking a performance hit, negating the benefits of the RED drives.

If RED drives were good for all situations, they'd have simply replaced the green drives.

[MxPhenom 216]

How does an Intel board, regardless of controller, not have RAID abilities. I was under the assumption that any board can do it these days?

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by MxPhenom 216

No one told me to get a NAS lol. I don't know where you have been, but they haven't.

I was on TS when you talked about starting the project. TWO PEOPLE told you to get a NAS. I even agreed with them saying "I need to get one to back up my wife's laptop automatically so I can stop using an external all the time." Then one guy said it was over kill and he built his own and you were all like "That's what I wanna do!".

And so the stone of fail rolled on.

Originally Posted by MxPhenom 216

How does an Intel board, regardless of controller, not have RAID abilities. I was under the assumption that any board can do it these days?

You assumed.

[cadaveca]

Originally Posted by MxPhenom 216

How does an Intel board, regardless of controller, not have RAID abilities. I was under the assumption that any board can do it these days?

Dude..I asked you why you choose that combo...then right after, told you not to get RED drives. FOR THIS EXACT REASON. Then I told you to go research why. Because clearly you weren't listening.

You were pretty confident, so I wasn't gonna burst your bubble. I mean really.. why do I care what you buy? It's not for me.. it's for you. I was just trying to prevent you from some heartache, even, when I recommended the AMD rig in the first place. FM2 platform boards have 6 or 8 drive ports, and support RAID no problem.

[MxPhenom 216]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

I was on TS when you talked about starting the project. TWO PEOPLE told you to get a NAS. I even agreed with them saying "I need to get one to back up my wife's laptop automatically so I can stop using an external all the time." Then one guy said it was over kill and he built his own and you were all like "That's what I wanna do!".

And so the stone of fail rolled on.



You assumed.

No one said get a NAS, everyone just said thats a stupid idea, and not worth it. "You just need more storage, not a server."

Originally Posted by cadaveca

Dude..I asked you why you choose that combo...then right after, told you not to get RED drives. FOR THIS EXACT REASON. Then I told you to go research why. Because clearly you weren't listening.

You were pretty confident, so I wasn't gonna burst your bubble. I mean really.. why do I care what you buy? It's not for me.. it's for you. I was just trying to prevent you from some heartache, even, when I recommended the AMD rig in the first place. FM2 platform boards have 6 or 8 drive ports, and support RAID no problem.

Right you asked me, why, and then you never said anything about the board not supporting RAID. You never specified the reason why to not get the board, and why not to get the Reds.

[cadaveca]

Originally Posted by MxPhenom 216

No one said get a NAS, everyone just said thats a stupid idea, and not worth it. "You just need more storage, not a server."

I told you to get a NAS. you said you wanted to run VMs, so I shut my mouth.




Again, a singular voice out there..and you listened to the masses.



Lesson learned.

And to those reading that think I'm being a bit hard on Phenom here(someone loves you, phenom!), he and I spend on average about 4 hours a day talking to each other, and I kinda consider us having a good friendship, so I'm just being honest here.

Originally Posted by MxPhenom 216

Right you asked me, why, and then you never said anything about the board not supporting RAID. You never specified the reason why to not get the board, and why not to get the Reds.

Nah, I told you to research. No big deal. Word for word.. I told you "look it says this on the website...go and check it out". You clearly only heard what you wanted to hear.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by MxPhenom 216

No one said get a NAS, everyone just said thats a stupid idea, and not worth it. "You just need more storage, not a server."

Dave said to get a NAS man.

Edit: beat me to it.

You know I love ya Phenom. But this conversation I remember man. I took note because I need to get a NAS and was listening carefully.

[cadaveca]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

Dave said to get a NAS man.

Edit: beat me to it.

You know I love ya Phenom. But this conversation I remember man. I took note because I need to get a NAS and was listening carefully.

Truly though, for the cost, a decent NAS is going to cost what that hardware did, so no big deal. He said he wanted to play with VMs and remoting in...and then I told him he's not going to have as easy of a time as he thinks...and he sluffed it off.

Meh.


You'll be fine, but you are going to have to re-work your idea of what you're doing a little bit..or not...Just run software RAID.

FYI, other than what I mentioned, I don't actually think RED drives are any different physically than Green drives. Just no parking, and no error correction. They get their faster speeds from the lack of parking. It'll be interesting to see some performance form those RED drives on SATA 3 Gb/s, too. They'll do 120 MB/sec in SATA 6 Gb/s, but so do the green drives, in my testing. Green drops to 102 in SATA 3 Gb/s..which I thought was weird.

[MT Alex]

Originally Posted by cadaveca

From this point forth you shall be my example of someone asking for help, doing the opposite, and then running into problems.

I'm pretty sure that honorable distinction should remain with Ducky

[Frick]

Originally Posted by MxPhenom 216

How does an Intel board, regardless of controller, not have RAID abilities. I was under the assumption that any board can do it these days?

[brandonwh64]

I have a AMD system I would trade you for that Intel, It supports hardware raid and is mATX. Just a thought.

[newtekie1]

Originally Posted by cadaveca

Of course.

But...

Not with proper error correction, and you'll be taking a performance hit, negating the benefits of the RED drives.

If RED drives were good for all situations, they'd have simply replaced the green drives.

Where are you getting that the Red drives don't have any error correction? That is simply not true. The Red drives have TLER enabled, a feature that used to be on pretty much all desktop drives. The drive can still handle error correction on its own, however TLER limits the amount of time it will leave the controller waiting for a response. Drives without TLER will not send a response to a command until after the error recovery is completed, if the RAID controller has to wait too long it will mark the drive as bad and drop it from the array. TLER forces the time that the drive waits to send a response to a much shorter time, so the drive will respond to the RAID controller informing it that there was an error. The controller can then issue the drive a command on how to handle the error correction, but if no command is issued the drive will handle the error correction(remap the bad sector) on its own. There is no lack of error correction on a drive with TLER enabled, TLER was a standard feature in desktop drives for years until WD got greeding and disabled it(and eventually removed it entirely) on their desktop drives to stop people from buying the cheaper drives for RAID arrays.

Originally Posted by MxPhenom 216

How does an Intel board, regardless of controller, not have RAID abilities. I was under the assumption that any board can do it these days?

Unfortunately, no. Though you can pick up a cheap stand-alone RAID controller to set up a hardware RAID if you want.

Something like this: HighPoint RocketRAID 620 PCI-Express 2.0 x1 SATA I...

Mind you, the SATA 6.0Gb/s ports aren't really important since the mechanical drives won't even come close to using the bandwidth SATA 3.0Gb/s provides, but the card is so cheap it is a nice bonus to have SATA 6.0Gb/s ports.

Originally Posted by cadaveca

It'll be interesting to see some performance form those RED drives on SATA 3 Gb/s, too. They'll do 120 MB/sec in SATA 6 Gb/s, but so do the green drives, in my testing. Green drops to 102 in SATA 3 Gb/s..which I thought was weird.

120MB/s isn't even enough to saturate a SATA 1.5Gb/s connection...

[cadaveca]

Originally Posted by newtekie1

Where are you getting that the Red drives don't have any error correction? That is simply not true. The Red drives have TLER enabled, a feature that used to be on pretty much all desktop drives. The drive can still handle error correction on its own, however TLER limits the amount of time it will leave the controller waiting for a response. Drives without TLER will not send a response to a command until after the error recovery is completed, if the RAID controller has to wait too long it will mark the drive as bad and drop it from the array. TLER forces the time that the drive waits to send a response to a much shorter time, so the drive will respond to the RAID controller informing it that there was an error. The controller can then issue the drive a command on how to handle the error correction, but if no command is issued the drive will handle the error correction(remap the bad sector) on its own. There is no lack of error correction on a drive with TLER enabled, TLER was a standard feature in desktop drives for years until WD got greeding and disabled it(and eventually removed it entirely) on their desktop drives to stop people from buying the cheaper drives for RAID array.

That's not what WD told me, but it seems your are quite correct. Poor phone support. Anandtech has a good review.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6157/w...th-the-premium

• Less aggressive head parking (no IntelliPark feature)
• Configurable Time Limited Error Recovery (TLER), with a default of 7 seconds
• IntelliPower disk rotation speeds (comparable to Green drives)
• Vibration reduction mechanism in hardware
• 3-Yr. warranty and 24x7 phone support