PSU Guide

[panchoman]

Originally Posted by DRDNA

I am sure with a little more research on the EnerMax you will find that it is indeed GREEN and in the top 5 of all the manufactures Thank you for taking the time to do this project
I will slap ya an official thank you once your documentation has become near completion

well for enermax, it's green now. the documentation will never be complete because new psu brands are always coming out and older brands are changing their psu's are releasing new series. i found this great article from toms hardware guide http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/07/11/stress_test/ just hitting the arrow for the table of contents and reading the headlines is enough you need to know about the psu lol. as of course, the good psus survive, the bad crumble.

[panchoman]

as for pfc, im not too sure but i think this quote means that without pfc the power gets wasted, i read in another guide that active pfc can make more use of the ac line then a psu with no pfc, "PFC is desirable because the source of electrical energy must be capable of supplying real power as well as any reactive power demanded by the load. This can require larger, more expensive power plant equipment, transmission lines, transformers, switches, etc. than would be necessary for only real power delivered. Also, resistive losses in the transmission lines mean that some of the generated power is wasted because the extra current needed to supply reactive power only serves to heat up the power lines."

[AsRock]

Originally Posted by panchoman

all the units are built by enermax as far as i know, and enermax is not a good oem company, so i would say even the 300 buck models are bad. i finished color coding btw. i have about 15 links of psu info sitting in my inbox, i'll compile all the info and add it in eventually..

So retail units should be ok ?

As i have been planing to pick one of these up some time this year
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817194019

[panchoman]

Originally Posted by AsRock

So retail units should be ok ?

As i have been planing to pick one of these up some time this year
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817194019

i would wait, while enermax produts are really good overall, the recent reviews are disturbing, and this one might explain the problem:

"Cons: Did not have proper cabling. Called ENERMAX and they admitted shipping bad units. However they tried to convince me to use an improper cable to power my motherboard because it could be easily forced into the receptor on the motherboard. "

if they're shipping bad units, i suggest you wait a little bit untill they correct the problem.

heres the review under that one:

Cons: It blew up, only lasted 1 hour, scared the life out of me and my quad core system. I have since fitted an Antec Truepower Quad 1000 with no problems, i should have used antec the first time around, also the Enermax is way longer than any other psu i have used, the antec is the typical psu size and fits much better!

and the one under that one:

Other Thoughts: Wouldn't post new Abit IN9-32X Max MB with all power connectors attached. Removing molex conn. to MB booted system, but SLI not stable. My older PSU booted the MB just fine. RMA'd this unit. Hopefully a new one will work.

and the one after that one:

Cons: When the PSU was mounted in the case following the instructions in the manual (135mm fan facing down). The fan shaft had enough play that the fan blades cam in contact with the fan grill. It sounded like a a blender. It also overloaded my APC UPS. Because of the fan I RMAed the item.

Other Thoughts: Their quality control must be rather poor allowing a unit to be sold with a blatant problem.

and the one after that one:

Cons: Has many issues with power stability. Fails to boot. Shuts down randomly.

and the one after that one:

Cons: Enermax still hasn't learned to make the cables longer and they are failing QA - the first one not only had a short, but it kept constant power on one of the rails (CD light would be one with the machine off).


i think you get the point now, and these are the first few reviews from the link you sent me, stay away untill they stop shipping bad units i say..

[panchoman]

okay, i put more info for wattage, and i put out some general amp numbers. And i rewrote the rails paragraph with some new info(i'll clean it up later). Addied some info on modular too,changed the yellows to orange so that you can read them better, and now i can call it a day.

my goal for this guide is: the guide should be through with all the information in one place, while being user friendly and well organized so that it does not feel like a novel.

[AsRock]

Originally Posted by panchoman

i would wait, while enermax produts are really good overall, the recent reviews are disturbing, and this one might explain the problem:

"Cons: Did not have proper cabling. Called ENERMAX and they admitted shipping bad units. However they tried to convince me to use an improper cable to power my motherboard because it could be easily forced into the receptor on the motherboard. "

if they're shipping bad units, i suggest you wait a little bit untill they correct the problem.

heres the review under that one:

Cons: It blew up, only lasted 1 hour, scared the life out of me and my quad core system. I have since fitted an Antec Truepower Quad 1000 with no problems, i should have used antec the first time around, also the Enermax is way longer than any other psu i have used, the antec is the typical psu size and fits much better!

and the one under that one:

Other Thoughts: Wouldn't post new Abit IN9-32X Max MB with all power connectors attached. Removing molex conn. to MB booted system, but SLI not stable. My older PSU booted the MB just fine. RMA'd this unit. Hopefully a new one will work.

and the one after that one:

Cons: When the PSU was mounted in the case following the instructions in the manual (135mm fan facing down). The fan shaft had enough play that the fan blades cam in contact with the fan grill. It sounded like a a blender. It also overloaded my APC UPS. Because of the fan I RMAed the item.

Other Thoughts: Their quality control must be rather poor allowing a unit to be sold with a blatant problem.

and the one after that one:

Cons: Has many issues with power stability. Fails to boot. Shuts down randomly.

and the one after that one:

Cons: Enermax still hasn't learned to make the cables longer and they are failing QA - the first one not only had a short, but it kept constant power on one of the rails (CD light would be one with the machine off).


i think you get the point now, and these are the first few reviews from the link you sent me, stay away untill they stop shipping bad units i say..

Cheers for the responce and yeah by the reviews there some bad one BUT all so i know how stupid people can be and expect bad ones anyways but does seem a bit high still.

As for waiting have no option i have to wait lol. I'm sure it's not as bad as Coolmax like the one i have all ready too glad to see them marked RED.

[panchoman]

Originally Posted by AsRock

Cheers for the responce and yeah by the reviews there some bad one BUT all so i know how stupid people can be and expect bad ones anyways but does seem a bit high still.

As for waiting have no option i have to wait lol. I'm sure it's not as bad as Coolmax like the one i have all ready too glad to see them marked RED.

yeah, if you really really want to get that enermax galaxy, i suggest you wait till they stop shipping out bad units, or just a different psu, like the pc power and cooling 1kw psu.


COMING SOON:

-i'm going to be splitting the psu guide into 2 sections. the first section will be basically the psu guide in a nutshell and the second part will be the guide that currently exists.

-i gotta change the yellows to orange so that you guys can see them better

-i'll add "pancho's top 10 psu's list"

-possible psu of the week idk, this guide's not that popular yet lmao.

[keakar]

i dont see Broadway on the general list of power supplies anywhere

[panchoman]

Originally Posted by keakar

i dont see Broadway on the general list of power supplies anywhere

broadway??

[keakar]

probably list a red colored brand but this is them http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...k=&srchInDesc=

[panchoman]

Originally Posted by keakar

probably list a red colored brand but this is them http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...k=&srchInDesc=

the dont have a ul logo and thats really bad, definite red. edit: some have the logo, some dont. anyone know how to zoom in on text without making it blurry? http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowIm...W+Power+Supply
i need to read the ul number(its under the backwards R thats attached to a U) off of that label.

[keakar]

Originally Posted by panchoman

the dont have a ul logo and thats really bad, definite red. edit: some have the logo, some dont. anyone know how to zoom in on text without making it blurry? http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowIm...W+Power+Supply
i need to read the ul number(its under the backwards R thats attached to a U) off of that label.

looks like they make em themselves, will this help? http://www.bccpc.com/bccpc/about_us.htm

[panchoman]

Originally Posted by keakar

looks like they make em themselves, will this help? http://www.bccpc.com/bccpc/about_us.htm

actually, i was going to say that as well, i went to the ul directory, and broadway com corp is registered as a psu maker, heres their ul file: http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/t...374&sequence=1

[panchoman]

oh and the orange looks almost like red, so i'll be reverting back to yellow since its more logical then like purple lmao. im using traffic light colors btw. and if you guys know any other brands that i need to add on here, just drop a post, and i'll look it up.

[panchoman]

Coming Soon(in the next few days):

-changing the color coding scheme for the 3rd time

-finishing up the psu simplied portion.

-19 more brands added (preety much went through all the brands on newegg) - this will take some time(few days probably) because need to check through all the psu's and find oem patterns and what not so if theres a brand on here that you want,post it here and i'll put it at the top of my list)

[KennyT772]

Rails: While many psu's are multi rail, it is better to get a single rail system because with a single rail, the psu can transfer 100% of the 12v output of the psu to the computer, whereas in a multi rail system, you can face up to 30% distribution loss due to underutilized rails. lets say for example lets say rail 12vr2 is assigned to work for the cpu, and lets say the rail carries 17Amps of power, but the cpu only uses 7A of power, that 10amps in lost, whereas in a single rail system, the system draws from only one rail so the power loss is not there. also, lets say you have a grafix card that required 20A, but the rail its using is 17A, you have instability and problems like that, thats why for a sli/crossfire system, you definently want a single rail psu, because everything draws from the single rail, which has all the power of the psu. whereas if you're trying to sli/crossfire on a quad rail system, which has like power of the psu split up, that 1/4 of the power of the psu might not be able to power the sli/crossfire grafix cards.

This information is very incorrect.

Example say we have a psu with 4 rails that outputs a max of 650w between the four 12v rails. Each rail has a max of 18a output. That should add up to 864w right? Wrong.

There is a single transformer that makes the 650w of 12v power. From there the power is split into 4 channels: 12v1 12v2 12v3 12v4. Then there is a limiter placed on each channel of 18amps or 216w. This means that up to 216w can be used from any one channel, but no more than 650w total.

So you could use 3 of the rails and still use 650w, but if you put anything on that last rail you would overload the transformer - psu shuts off.

Say you put two HD2900's on a single rail, you go over the 216w max - psu shuts off.

Now if you put the motherboard on rail one 12v1, say that uses 11a. CPU power goes from rail two or 12v2, that uses 11a. Then you throw a HD2900 and a hard drive on each of the last two rails, a HD2900 + HDD on 12v3 and a HD2900 + HDD on 12v4. Each of those uses say 16a. That equals 54amps or 648w.

This means that while no rail uses the full 18a, you still max out the power supply. You are not wasting any power as there is no cutting it apart. There is no psu whose sticker says
12v1 18a 12v2 18a
max 12v 36a
That would waste power.

While I thank you for starting this thread, some of your definitions need to be changed.

[KennyT772]

Modular Cabling: Modular cabling is always something that PC enthusists want. with modular cabling, most cables other then the 20+4 pin, 4 pin cpu, etc. come seperate from the PSU. with modular cabling, you only need to use the cables which you want. the rest of the cables can stay outside of the case, which will help improve your airflow. While modular cabling does improve airflow, they limit power by increasing the electrical resisitance, in fact the voltage drop can be as much as that which would occur in 2 feet of standard wire. Worst of all though, modular plugs utilize delicate pins that can easily loosen, corrode, and burn, creating the potential for a major system failure.

This is also incorrect.

Depending on design there can be little to no difference on modular and fixed cables. Take the new thermaltake power supplys. Because they make the exact same unit in two versions, modular and not, there have been several tests done to see if there is indeed a difference. While I do not know where I read this off hand I'm sure someone else does.

With cheaper modular units such as Ultra's etc over time the pins do loosen although there is no difference with loose pins on the power supply and loose pins on the other end of the wire. This is a common marketing ploy by some higher end psu makers to promote their units as the best.

Some other designs such as Hiper's aircraft style plugs prevents the quoted issue as there is no way the connection can be faulty or the connector can fall out. This is a superior although bulky design.

[xnox202]

I was kinda surprised, Decathlon and Olympia in reds. And I thought they are really excellent PSUs?

Edit: wops, orange i meant.

[panchoman]

Originally Posted by KennyT772

This information is very incorrect.

Example say we have a psu with 4 rails that outputs a max of 650w between the four 12v rails. Each rail has a max of 18a output. That should add up to 864w right? Wrong.

There is a single transformer that makes the 650w of 12v power. From there the power is split into 4 channels: 12v1 12v2 12v3 12v4. Then there is a limiter placed on each channel of 18amps or 216w. This means that up to 216w can be used from any one channel, but no more than 650w total.

So you could use 3 of the rails and still use 650w, but if you put anything on that last rail you would overload the transformer - psu shuts off.

Say you put two HD2900's on a single rail, you go over the 216w max - psu shuts off.

Now if you put the motherboard on rail one 12v1, say that uses 11a. CPU power goes from rail two or 12v2, that uses 11a. Then you throw a HD2900 and a hard drive on each of the last two rails, a HD2900 + HDD on 12v3 and a HD2900 + HDD on 12v4. Each of those uses say 16a. That equals 54amps or 648w.

This means that while no rail uses the full 18a, you still max out the power supply. You are not wasting any power as there is no cutting it apart. There is no psu whose sticker says
12v1 18a 12v2 18a
max 12v 36a
That would waste power.

While I thank you for starting this thread, some of your definitions need to be changed.

This is from Pcpower.com:

8. ARE MULTIPLE 12-VOLT RAILS BETTER THAN A SINGLE 12-VOLT RAIL?
With all the hype about multiple 12-volt rails (ads claim that two rails is better than one, five is better than four, etc.), you’d think it was a better design. Unfortunately, it’s not!

Here are the facts: A large, single 12-volt rail (without a 240VA limit) can transfer 100% of the 12-volt output from the PSU to the computer, while a multi-rail 12-volt design has distribution losses of up to 30% of the power supply’s rating. Those losses occur because power literally gets “trapped” on under-utilized rails. For example, if the 12-volt rail that powers the CPU is rated for 17 amps and the CPU only uses 7A, the remaining 10A is unusable, since it is isolated from the rest of the system.

Since the maximum current from any one 12-volt rail of a multiple-rail PSU is limited to 20 amps (240VA / 12 volts = 20 amps), PCs with high-performance components that draw over 20 amps from the same rail are subject to over-current shutdowns. With power requirements for multiple processors and graphics cards continuing to grow, the multiple-rail design, with its 240VA limit per rail, is basically obsolete.

this is why i wrote what i wrote, so unless if you have another source of info that can prove this info wrong, please post an excerpt/link/etc. while i am happy that everybody's trying to help me add to this thread, it would be helpful if you could provide links to verified information. heres another article: http://www.maximumpc.com/article/sin...power_supplies
for running things such as compressors, etc. you need a single rail psu, "http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-71455.html" the power cannot be rerouted between rails, atx specs say that (i believe) in a dual rail psu, the first rail is for the 24 pin power connector and molex, and that the second rail is for the 4 pin cpu connector. with the processors becoming more energy efficent, the amps that the cpu isn't using, cant be rerouted to another rail, like a rail where you're trying to run 2 hd2900xt 's in crossfire. while lets say the cpu is using 7 amps on it's 17 amp rail, the other 10 amps cannot be rerouted to another rail, therefore the 10amps is not wasted as in burned up/used, but wasted in the sense that they cant be used by anything other then the cpu. for extreme overclockers and people running multiple video card setups, a single 12v+ railwill be more stable and powerful then a multiple rail system.

[panchoman]

Originally Posted by xnox202

I was kinda surprised, Decathlon and Olympia in reds. And I thought they are really excellent PSUs?

Edit: wops, orange i meant.

yeah, they're in orange, i need to make them yellow again, yellow looks too similiair, while the psu's are very good, the oem is a little , but dont worry, i'm actually working on figuring out why the thermaltake and silverstone psu's are good though the oems are like...

[panchoman]

Originally Posted by KennyT772

This is also incorrect.

Depending on design there can be little to no difference on modular and fixed cables. Take the new thermaltake power supplys. Because they make the exact same unit in two versions, modular and not, there have been several tests done to see if there is indeed a difference. While I do not know where I read this off hand I'm sure someone else does.

With cheaper modular units such as Ultra's etc over time the pins do loosen although there is no difference with loose pins on the power supply and loose pins on the other end of the wire. This is a common marketing ploy by some higher end psu makers to promote their units as the best.

Some other designs such as Hiper's aircraft style plugs prevents the quoted issue as there is no way the connection can be faulty or the connector can fall out. This is a superior although bulky design.

while i do agree that most of the time the plug part of the modular cabling system isn't that much of a problem, the electrical resistance part is.

[KennyT772]

Well how about this, buy a 1200w thermaltake's of each variety and test for differences.

I post not from marketing blurb, not from ad funded websites, but from technical design and physics laws.

My house has a 32 rail power supply believe it or not. Most rails are 15-30 amp but the max output is 300amp. Sound familiar? That is because a capped design to prevent overdraw on wiring has been the normal in home wiring for many years. If you don't believe me and say a single rail approach is better, go open your home fuse breaker.

With modular, if we are that worried about loose pins and high resistance connections why not just hard wire our computers into the wall while we are at it? Them darn power cords are costing us performance!!!!

Also, I distinctly said there can be no difference, there also can be a large difference. I'm not simply saying any and every modular design is flawless. Some such as hiper's are great and have very little degradation of the connection over time. Others that use simple plug in connectors with no clip (such as the sunbeam unit I am posting from) the connector can slide out of the socket increasing resistance and lowering output. It all depends on how solid the connection is. If there is no clip it is easy for the connector to fall out, if theres a clip like most modular psu's it is rather difficult but has happened. However, if it is a design good enough for the aeronautics community, I have rather large faith in the design.

I do not quote other experts, I quote laws of physics and common sense. While this has failed me more than just once, I have been correct beyond my knowledge more times than I can count.

[KennyT772]

Originally Posted by panchoman

This is from Pcpower.com:



this is why i wrote what i wrote, so unless if you have another source of info that can prove this info wrong, please post an excerpt/link/etc. while i am happy that everybody's trying to help me add to this thread, it would be helpful if you could provide links to verified information. heres another article: http://www.maximumpc.com/article/sin...power_supplies
for running things such as compressors, etc. you need a single rail psu, "http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-71455.html" the power cannot be rerouted between rails, atx specs say that (i believe) in a dual rail psu, the first rail is for the 24 pin power connector and molex, and that the second rail is for the 4 pin cpu connector. with the processors becoming more energy efficent, the amps that the cpu isn't using, cant be rerouted to another rail, like a rail where you're trying to run 2 hd2900xt 's in crossfire. while lets say the cpu is using 7 amps on it's 17 amp rail, the other 10 amps cannot be rerouted to another rail, therefore the 10amps is not wasted as in burned up/used, but wasted in the sense that they cant be used by anything other then the cpu. for extreme overclockers and people running multiple video card setups, a single 12v+ railwill be more stable and powerful then a multiple rail system.

Are you telling me that there is a hard line between 12v1 and 12v2? The rails have caps preventing you from overloading the wire. The reason for all of this multi rail madness is the ATX2.0 spec. In order to have your psu display the ATX2.X sticker it has to comply to the specifications. One of those is no more than 18a over a single 12v wire if I remember correctly. This is due to Intel's P4's drawing so much power from the single 12v connector in the original 20pin mobo connector that it was melting the wire.

The 4pin "P4" connector was born. This enabled intel to use much more 12v voltage for motherboards and their processors. Once the Pentium D's came out, there became another problem. Not even the 3 12v leads were enough, so here came the 24pin sockets with an extra 12v lead in there totalling for 4 of them. It also added a 5v and a 3.3v.

More amperage - more line instability. This has long been a rule of overclockers. This is why you see no low end motherboards with a molex or floppy power connector on the mobo itself, Yet DFI and ASUS overclocking boards have 1, 2, or even 3 extra connectors to provide extra power.

I could sit and explain until you understand what I say, however It seems my time so far has been only in vain.

[keakar]

Originally Posted by KennyT772

I could sit and explain until you understand what I say, however It seems my time so far has been only in vain.

you have stated many things as fact but you have never provided anything in the way of links to any article backing up what you have said.

while everything you state could be acurate and truthfull you have to remember the purpose of the thread is to provide "acurate information" not opinions so all he is asking for is something to back up what you are saying.

if he is to post it as fact he needs more than just one persons "opinion" that it is correct.

he is not trying to argue with you he is only looking for verification of what you are saying.

[KennyT772]

Well give me a adjustable load psu tester and I could easily prove it.

Tell me if this is wrong
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817341002
That is the power supply I just purchased a week ago.

As you can see in the picture it has 4 18a rails with a combined output of 680w. That equates to roughly 57a between all 12v rails. How many different ways can you cut 57amps 4 ways?

I cannot find the description of which rail powers what connector so I don't really know. Although my guess is that the motherboard 24pin is one rail, the 8pin is another, then one pci-e/sata/molex each on the last two rails. So I could possibly put all of my computers load on 3 of the four rails correct? Well the max of any one rail is 18 amp, that times three means I can use a maximum of 54amp (as long as I don't pull more than 18amp from any one rail) and get by with a rail left over.

Am I wasting wattage now? No I am not. There are multiple ways you could use the total of 57amp over any of the connectors. The power supply doesn't care if you use only one rail at 18amp or if you use all four at 5amp. Why is that? Because it doesn't matter. You don't believe me so go try it yourself.

Rails are a safety feature not a performance feature. If you tear apart a PCP&C unit and try to draw say 30amp over one wire the unit will either shut off (because it has a maximum output shutoff coughrailcough) or you will melt the wire causing big problems.

Instead of telling me to back up my information why not go and prove me wrong, either with your own two hands or by one of our peers. Not some review guy with advertising money in his back pocket.

Keakar I have stated many things as that is what I do. I have many friends who are engineers, some of which are electrical engineers. I have discussed power design with them multiple times on the issue of rails etc. One of them works for intel and had a part in designing the ATX2.2 spec.
Link to atx2.2 http://www.formfactors.org/developer...s%5Catx2_2.pdf