Sandisk CEO: ''Windows Vista not Optimized for SSDs''

btarunr · Jul 22, 2008, 03:13 PM

During a conference of the company's second quarter earnings, the CEO Eli Harari of Sandisk, a significant player in the solid state drive (SSD) industry said that Windows Vista would present a special challenge for solid state drive (SSD) makers. Says Harari: "As soon as you get into Vista applications in notebook and desktop, you start running into very demanding applications because Vista is not optimized for flash memory solid state disk,". He hints at the design of Vista as a cause for performance not being upto the mark, adding that Sandisk's next generation drive controllers should aim to "basically compensate for Vista shortfalls".

"Unfortunately, (SSDs) performance in the Vista environment falls short of what the market really needs and that is why we need to develop the next generation, which we'll start sampling end of this year, early next year," said Harari. Ironically, he has also been quoted saying that such issues didn't affect the "very low-end, ultra low-cost PCs" (read ULPCs), where existing controller technologies could handle 8 ~ 32 GB drive capacities. Clever choice of words since that's the segment that has drive manufacturers, both SSD and HDD, eying at since it's an emerging segment.

Source: CNET

cdawall · Jul 22, 2008, 03:46 PM

so basically we get to see that M$ pushed out an unfinished product that wasn't up to par?

newconroer · Jul 22, 2008, 04:49 PM

Sandisk is a laugh.

MS could easily turn the table and say that SD's products are not flexible enough.

[I.R.A]_FBi · Jul 22, 2008, 04:56 PM

pointing fingers generally gets you nowhere

Kreij · Jul 22, 2008, 04:58 PM

It would help his cause a little if he shed some light on why Vista was not optimized for SSD.

[I.R.A]_FBi · Jul 22, 2008, 05:05 PM

Im betting he's reffering to the hundreds of reads and writes going on in the background by default

mlupple · Jul 22, 2008, 06:02 PM

It's the other way around. Sandisk's SSDs are not optimized for Windows Vista. How about releasing drivers like everyone else?

hat · Jul 22, 2008, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlupple

It's the other way around. Sandisk's SSDs are not optimized for Windows Vista. How about releasing drivers like everyone else?

Drivers? For a hard drive? I've never heard about hard disk drivers, aside from RAID.

mlupple · Jul 22, 2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hat

Drivers? For a hard drive? I've never heard about hard disk drivers, aside from RAID.

Then make them. AMD's not gonna bitch because their video card doesn't work the way they want it to natively in windows so they're going to make drivers for it.

Kreij · Jul 22, 2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hat

Drivers? For a hard drive? I've never heard about hard disk drivers, aside from RAID.

The controller (driver) is for the bus. Each bus on the motherboard uses a driver (IDE, SATA, PCIe, etc.)

Sandisk SSD's use the SATA bus.
Sandisk claims their SSD's can maintain a sustained read rate of 67MB/s.

The Theortical limit on SATA 2 (3Gb/s) is 376MB/s
On SATA 1 (1.5Gb/s) its 187.5 MB/s

Both bus speeds are considerably higher than the sustained rate of the SSDs.

That is why it would have been nice for him to drop a little technical info on his "Vista not optimized" statement. Where, exactly, is the problem occurring?

Whoops ... found this. Vista's the problem ? Doesn't appear that way.

Quote:

While Vista may be a performance inhibitor compared to Windows XP for SSDs, it appears that most new, current-generation SSDs are having no problems performing well with the operating system. The problem appears to be SanDisk's low reads and writes (67 MB/sec and 50 MB/sec respectively) compared to the competition (i.e., OCZ’s new Core Series SSDs which clock in at 120 to 143 MB/sec for reads and 80 to 93 MB/sec for writes).

Dia01 · Jul 22, 2008, 08:08 PM

What's he mean "Vista is not optimized for flash memory solid state disk,". Vista recommends using a flash drive for ready boost. Scare mongering tactics, especially when the OCZ Core Series are offering reasonable priced SSD's at the moment, and that's in Australia!

Easy Rhino · Jul 22, 2008, 08:28 PM

wake me up when SSDs are priced for the average consumer. then i will care.

WhiteLotus · Jul 22, 2008, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easy Rhino

wake me up when SSDs are priced for the average consumer. then i will care.

i have to agree with this.

and yea why chuck that statement out with no evidence.

hat · Jul 22, 2008, 08:54 PM

I agree with Easy Rhino as well.
Oh look, a 128gb SSD. Looks like they're finally getting to sub-par storage levels. But wait! It only comes at the low-low price of over $500!
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227345

I'd rather take this cool Western Digital Caviar 1TB drive forr $240
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136206

[I.R.A]_FBi · Jul 22, 2008, 09:17 PM

when i can get 2 120 gb ssd's for 100 dollars ill be interested

Megasty · Jul 22, 2008, 09:35 PM

Hardly worth a yawn. These giant flash drives have to come down to earth b4 normal computer shoppers like me will even turn an eye to this kind of news.

The only funny part of it is how Harari is complaining about vista when its basically his drives which are too slow.

TheGuruStud · Jul 22, 2008, 10:17 PM

I bet vista fails at SSD b/c it read/writes to it like a flash drive. Have you ever used a flash drive on vista? It's like using a 3.5 floppy. Actually, a 3.5 floppy is faster. But the interesting thing is that the perf. isn't completely abysmal using FAT, but using NTFS makes it so slow, it's literally useless. It would take an hour to load a multi-GB drive. I even remember trying to load just a few MBs of small files and it took 15 mins. Pathetic.

newtekie1 · Jul 22, 2008, 10:31 PM

This is exactly how it should be. It is either you optimize it for a regular HDD or a SSD. Microsoft optimized it for HDD's since that is what the large majority of users will have, and that will continue to be the case for long after Vista is EOL'd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdawall

so basically we get to see that M$ pushed out an unfinished product that wasn't up to par?

Isn't up to par? I don't think "up to par" means what you think it means. Up to par means that it is at the expected standard. SSD's aren't anywhere near the standard. Why should Microsoft waste time optimizing their OS for less than 1% of their users. I think there are much bigger problems with Vista than SSD optimizations.

FatForester · Jul 23, 2008, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdawall

so basically we get to see that M$ pushed out an unfinished product that wasn't up to par?

What a useful post, enlighten me more!

They're just trying to get people to buy their SSD's under the illusion that if Microsoft fixes their "problems" it will perform better. Yawn.

Mussels · Jul 23, 2008, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGuruStud

I bet vista fails at SSD b/c it read/writes to it like a flash drive. Have you ever used a flash drive on vista? It's like using a 3.5 floppy. Actually, a 3.5 floppy is faster. But the interesting thing is that the perf. isn't completely abysmal using FAT, but using NTFS makes it so slow, it's literally useless. It would take an hour to load a multi-GB drive. I even remember trying to load just a few MBs of small files and it took 15 mins. Pathetic.

my 2GB rally does 25MB/s, my 4GB imation nano does 12MB/s no matter how full it is, and my brothers 8GB manages around the 15MB/s mark (its on NTFS)

i've never seen this USB problem you speak of in vista.

TheGuruStud · Jul 23, 2008, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mussels

my 2GB rally does 25MB/s, my 4GB imation nano does 12MB/s no matter how full it is, and my brothers 8GB manages around the 15MB/s mark (its on NTFS)

i've never seen this USB problem you speak of in vista.

consider yourself lucky

Mussels · Jul 23, 2008, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGuruStud

consider yourself lucky

give some details on the problem if you can, i'll try and reproduce it.

I'm yet to see slow USB on vista, most lanners use vista x64 now around here and flash drives are the most common way of transferring files between us.

newtekie1 · Jul 23, 2008, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mussels

give some details on the problem if you can, i'll try and reproduce it.

I'm yet to see slow USB on vista, most lanners use vista x64 now around here and flash drives are the most common way of transferring files between us.

Agreed, I've never seen this USB Flash Drive issue either.

Besides that, Vista doesn't see SSD drive like Flash Drive, it sees them as a standard SATA drive.

TheGuruStud · Jul 23, 2008, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mussels

give some details on the problem if you can, i'll try and reproduce it.

I'm yet to see slow USB on vista, most lanners use vista x64 now around here and flash drives are the most common way of transferring files between us.

Maybe it's been fixed. I avoid vista like the plague

.
I just know that any ntfs flash volume took forever to write to.

And don't get me started on file copy/delete lol. I've never waited 7 seconds to delete files that are tiny.

Mussels · Jul 23, 2008, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGuruStud

Maybe it's been fixed. I avoid vista like the plague

.
I just know that any ntfs flash volume took forever to write to.

And don't get me started on file copy/delete lol. I've never waited 7 seconds to delete files that are tiny.

the delete bug has been gone for a long time, it was in a hotfix, and permanently nuked in SP1.

Jul 22, 2008, 03:13 PM	#1
btarunr Editor & Senior Moderator Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Hyderabad, India Posts: 14,981 (7.31/day) Thanks: 788 Thanked 12,895 Times in 5,647 Posts System Specs	Sandisk CEO: ''Windows Vista not Optimized for SSDs'' During a conference of the company's second quarter earnings, the CEO Eli Harari of Sandisk, a significant player in the solid state drive (SSD) industry said that Windows Vista would present a special challenge for solid state drive (SSD) makers. Says Harari: "As soon as you get into Vista applications in notebook and desktop, you start running into very demanding applications because Vista is not optimized for flash memory solid state disk,". He hints at the design of Vista as a cause for performance not being upto the mark, adding that Sandisk's next generation drive controllers should aim to "basically compensate for Vista shortfalls". "Unfortunately, (SSDs) performance in the Vista environment falls short of what the market really needs and that is why we need to develop the next generation, which we'll start sampling end of this year, early next year," said Harari. Ironically, he has also been quoted saying that such issues didn't affect the "very low-end, ultra low-cost PCs" (read ULPCs), where existing controller technologies could handle 8 ~ 32 GB drive capacities. Clever choice of words since that's the segment that has drive manufacturers, both SSD and HDD, eying at since it's an emerging segment. Source: CNET Last edited by btarunr; Jul 22, 2008 at 04:59 PM.

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Jul 22, 2008, 03:46 PM	#2
cdawall where the hell are my stars Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: some AF base Posts: 16,021 (6.43/day) Thanks: 457 Thanked 2,753 Times in 2,222 Posts System Specs	so basically we get to see that M$ pushed out an unfinished product that wasn't up to par? __________________

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Jul 22, 2008, 04:49 PM	#3
newconroer Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,251 (1.04/day) Thanks: 99 Thanked 230 Times in 193 Posts System Specs	Sandisk is a laugh. MS could easily turn the table and say that SD's products are not flexible enough. __________________ Awsome game I wish i could get it but parent are fags and they dont't let me get M games. Maybe if: You didn't call your parents fags You didn't call yourself "hacker" on the internet You learned to spell "awesome" and "assassin" they might think you are mature enough to get the game. -Davidelmo

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Jul 22, 2008, 04:56 PM	#4
[I.R.A]_FBi Eligible for custom title Join Date: May 2007 Location: c:\programs\kitteh.exe Posts: 6,152 (2.81/day) Thanks: 724 Thanked 556 Times in 461 Posts System Specs	pointing fingers generally gets you nowhere __________________ Rig 1+1 Athlon XP 2200+, MSI KM2M Combo, ATI 9200SE 128 MB DDR, 2 X 512 MB DDR333, 250GB + 80 HDD? “try intel cpu, amd is only good for going to nude sites” -firehawkxd “go for the 5850 now and play games while the nvidiots wait for the ceo to show an actual working product” -W1zzard “An MSI logo? This offends my retina. I await your apology.” -MRCL www.autolounge.com.jm

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Jul 22, 2008, 04:58 PM	#5
Kreij Hardcore Monkey Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cheeseland (Wisconsin, USA) Posts: 12,110 (5.28/day) Thanks: 591 Thanked 5,488 Times in 2,932 Posts System Specs	It would help his cause a little if he shed some light on why Vista was not optimized for SSD. __________________ Cloud (noun, singular): A dynamic arrangement of multiple potential single points of failure, with a user at one end and their data at the other. Get more tech news on a wide variety of topics at NextPowerUp

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Jul 22, 2008, 05:05 PM	#6
[I.R.A]_FBi Eligible for custom title Join Date: May 2007 Location: c:\programs\kitteh.exe Posts: 6,152 (2.81/day) Thanks: 724 Thanked 556 Times in 461 Posts System Specs	Im betting he's reffering to the hundreds of reads and writes going on in the background by default __________________ Rig 1+1 Athlon XP 2200+, MSI KM2M Combo, ATI 9200SE 128 MB DDR, 2 X 512 MB DDR333, 250GB + 80 HDD? “try intel cpu, amd is only good for going to nude sites” -firehawkxd “go for the 5850 now and play games while the nvidiots wait for the ceo to show an actual working product” -W1zzard “An MSI logo? This offends my retina. I await your apology.” -MRCL www.autolounge.com.jm

Jul 22, 2008, 06:02 PM	#7
mlupple Banned Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: USA Posts: 116 (0.06/day) Thanks: 87 Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts System Specs	It's the other way around. Sandisk's SSDs are not optimized for Windows Vista. How about releasing drivers like everyone else?

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Jul 22, 2008, 08:08 PM	#11
Dia01 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: QLD, Australia Posts: 425 (0.17/day) Thanks: 26 Thanked 54 Times in 46 Posts System Specs	What's he mean "Vista is not optimized for flash memory solid state disk,". Vista recommends using a flash drive for ready boost. Scare mongering tactics, especially when the OCZ Core Series are offering reasonable priced SSD's at the moment, and that's in Australia!

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Jul 22, 2008, 08:28 PM	#12
Easy Rhino Linux Advocate Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,218 (4.29/day) Thanks: 1,206 Thanked 2,774 Times in 1,792 Posts System Specs	wake me up when SSDs are priced for the average consumer. then i will care.

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Jul 22, 2008, 08:54 PM	#14
hat Maximum Overclocker Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 12,236 (5.16/day) Thanks: 2,054 Thanked 2,039 Times in 1,549 Posts System Specs	I agree with Easy Rhino as well. Oh look, a 128gb SSD. Looks like they're finally getting to sub-par storage levels. But wait! It only comes at the low-low price of over $500! http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227345 I'd rather take this cool Western Digital Caviar 1TB drive forr $240 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136206 __________________ My Heatware “Inb4 smartphone LN2 overclocking.” -radrok

Jul 22, 2008, 09:17 PM	#15
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Jul 22, 2008, 09:35 PM	#16
Megasty Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: The Kingdom of Au Posts: 1,209 (0.64/day) Thanks: 76 Thanked 83 Times in 76 Posts System Specs	Hardly worth a yawn. These giant flash drives have to come down to earth b4 normal computer shoppers like me will even turn an eye to this kind of news. The only funny part of it is how Harari is complaining about vista when its basically his drives which are too slow. __________________ gods are created through gaming not 3dmark... Comcast is great, isn't it...

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Jul 22, 2008, 10:17 PM	#17
TheGuruStud Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Police/Nanny State of America Posts: 1,394 (0.67/day) Thanks: 45 Thanked 142 Times in 109 Posts System Specs	I bet vista fails at SSD b/c it read/writes to it like a flash drive. Have you ever used a flash drive on vista? It's like using a 3.5 floppy. Actually, a 3.5 floppy is faster. But the interesting thing is that the perf. isn't completely abysmal using FAT, but using NTFS makes it so slow, it's literally useless. It would take an hour to load a multi-GB drive. I even remember trying to load just a few MBs of small files and it took 15 mins. Pathetic. __________________

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