Elder Scrolls V SKYRIM !! 11-11-11

[Benetanegia]

Originally Posted by Kreij

and a classless skill system.

Oh, wait. Maybe I understood that part wrong? If it's not based on classes at all, me likes, me likes a lot. I thought you could not create custom classes and had to choose from the preconceived ones.

Well I regained a little hope in the game and Bethsoft.

[Kreij]

Yah, it looks like you don't pick a class, you just learn skills and select abilities to make your character however you want.

[olithereal]

Originally Posted by Kreij

Yah, it looks like you don't pick a class, you just learn skills and select abilities to make your character however you want.

This is great. More games should go that way IMO...hell, Ultima Online back in the days had this type of system and it worked really well for it, same goes for the Gothic series.

So far I'm really happy with what I'm reading on TESV: Skyrim.

[AphexDreamer]

Originally Posted by Benetanegia

eeerm... no. I'm talking about having MORE customization options and having the freedom to level up and do as you damn please and that is only posible on TES games (previous ones at least), not about taking just another generic RPG. Dragon Age is not what I'm looking for at all. I don't want skill points and crap like that. I don't want to be limited by my previous choices, if I chose a warrior but now want to improve and concentrate on magic and have ALL the spells or whatever, that's what I want. I want level ups based on how much you use that skill and I want my capabilities be based on that and not lame perks and other stupid things. If I want max out my magic skills to 100% at level 1, just because I want and I am so cool (as stupid as it may be), so be it, that's what I want.

The ONLY RPGs that I have ever finished are TES games. All the others get boring after a while, a short while. I've played many RPGs, it's not like I hate the genre, but on every non-TES game I get bored right after the character has started to shaping up and all I want to do next is concentrate on other skills or other forms of beating the game. What I end up having is 3-8 different level 15 characters (depending on the game) and very little wisdom to continue playing with any of them. TES always gives you options and you can find the way to make the game fun and challenging under your own terms. THAT's what made TES the great series that it is, not the rest of the aspects of the game, which are average to say the leaast and are rather mediocre tbh, except for graphics and little more. It looks like they are commited to destroying that and I am very dissapointed. If they stop making TES games, real true to their heritage TES sequels, I'll quit playing RPG alltogether, because for me RPG genre is dead without a true TES game. And considring that nearly every other genre is following suit and dumbing down the games to the point they all seem crafted for 5 year old kids with lower than 90 IQ, I may quit gaming as a whole real soon too.

Originally Posted by KainXS

completely agree with that

Me 2. Exactly how I feel as well. People just look for different things in RPGs.

[Kreij]

Here's the "known" features nicely laid out ... The Imperial Library

Doesn't look like they are removing anything?

[Frick]

Originally Posted by Benetanegia

No. Not at all. in fact, I hate action RPGs. I love TES, specially I loved Morrowind, for me Morrowind >>>>>>>>>> Oblivion and I have stated that previously on this thread, I think twice. How on earth can you think I want action with a little magic?

That was the picture I got when reading the long post I quoted. Some things that made me jump to that conclusion:

[quote]I don't want skill points and crap like that.[/qoute]

This is one of the reasons I love RPG's: I can control everything, steer everything and how I want things to be. I don't understand RPG's without skill points.

I don't want to be limited by my previous choices, if I chose a warrior but now want to improve and concentrate on magic and have ALL the spells or whatever, that's what I want.

This almost contradicts every RPG there is. Actions and consequences, even when you choose proffesions/classes/whatever, is a cornerstone in RPG's.

I want level ups based on how much you use that skill and I want my capabilities be based on that

This is a personal thing, I don't like those systems at all. In Dungeon Siege you leveld Melee if you used melee weapons. For some reason I can't stand this. I WANT MY POINTS DARNIT!

If I want max out my magic skills to 100% at level 1, just because I want and I am so cool (as stupid as it may be), so be it, that's what I want.

This is a personal note as well: I think we see games very differently. Mostly I view games as a way to tell a story, or in some cases (like Dwarf Fortress and Rougelikes) create stories. And that thing you want is just unnatural to me. I don't even understand how it would work.

So I don't know, but I get the feeling that you want a game where there are no rules, or at least a game where rules doesn't apply to you. But again, I have a feeling we play games for different reasons.

[quote]TES always gives you options and you can find the way to make the game fun and challenging under your own terms.[/qoute]

Now this I can almost agree on, but in some ways it's not a good thing. To me there's a huge lack of direction and meaning in the TES games. You're dumped somewhere and that's about that. If the world was interesting and inviting for exploration this would be a good thing, but instead we get retarded AI's, generic fantasy setting and bad dialouges (which also are cornerstones in RPG's, and I'm not talking about voice acting, I'm talking stupid dialouges). Fallout was a bit better as I'm a big fan of dystopias and post apocalypse things, but it inherited all the stupidness of Oblivion.

It's pretty interesting, because I'm the same way you are when it comes to TES games instead.

I can also agree on what you said last, games are dumbed down. And it's highly entertaining that they try to make the games more "adult" by adding things only 12 year old boys appriciate.

[AphexDreamer]

No he just wants a game like TES ^^^^

As do I!! Like Seriously getting hooked on TES is the worst thing you can do cause after that, NO RPG IS THE SAME!!!

[Benetanegia]

Originally Posted by Frick

...

I want RPG games to be what RPG really means: the changing of one's behaviour to fulfill a social role. In this case the social role is the one you'd choose + the one that the game imposes on you. Take Oblivion for example (any TES), the main quest imposes the role of savior of Cyrodiil/Morrowind, The Chosen One or whatever they call you and you can take it and progress whenever you want. But you can decide that's not what you want to do, you can choose to become the Archmage, the Champion of the Arena or many other things, you can do many side quests and you learn about the world that surrounds you by doing these quests and reading books and speaking to random people and... (a long etcetera), that's how the story is told and at least for me that's how the story should ALWAYS be told. That's how the story unfolds in real life.

The thing is that you can fullfil one role in that ficticious world and that role can be whichever you want and you'll have hundreds of hours of gameplay no matter what you choose doing. And that's for me a role playing game.

This is one of the reasons I love RPG's: I can control everything, steer everything and how I want things to be. I don't understand RPG's without skill points.

There's no better way to control how things are going to be than by increasing your strenghts based on how much you use those skills. If you want to be a master in Conjuration, just use conjuration spells. Easy.

What it's unnatural is to play 20 hours using a sword, because that's what you choose to do, probably because that's your best weapon and in level up you put all your skill points to axes (or spears or whatever), because you know that you'll soon get a kick ass axe. That's stupid and goes against the very nature of what role playing is. How can they give you the option to be a master on axes without the need to use an axe even once? That's stupid.

This almost contradicts every RPG there is. Actions and consequences, even when you choose proffesions/classes/whatever, is a cornerstone in RPG's.

And in TES games of course there are consecuences. If you have been using a sword to fight, you are good with the sword and only with the sword. Use an axe and you will most probably get killed soon. BUT you can still chose to use an axe any time and you will get proficient at using it, by using it. Again it's stupid when in other games you reach the level cap and from there on, you cannot learn anything new: So I've been fighting with a sword for 10 years, ok, and what? now I can't learn how to use an axe? Wtf. Of course you can and it will take time, a lot of time and that's exactly what it takes in TES games. Leveling skills is not easy on TES games, far from easy, in fact, and it requires a lot of investment in TIME and that's how things work on real life, as long as you devote enough time you can learn almost anything.

Now this I can almost agree on, but in some ways it's not a good thing. To me there's a huge lack of direction and meaning in the TES games. You're dumped somewhere and that's about that. If the world was interesting and inviting for exploration this would be a good thing, but instead we get retarded AI's, generic fantasy setting and bad dialouges (which also are cornerstones in RPG's, and I'm not talking about voice acting, I'm talking stupid dialouges). Fallout was a bit better as I'm a big fan of dystopias and post apocalypse things, but it inherited all the stupidness of Oblivion.

Once again I disagree on that. I don't find any unproportionate lack of direction on TES games and I think the world and the lore are exceptional and are told very well. On the matter of lack of direction, once again, I have to compare it slightly to real life, because for me role playing is acting like a real person would do in a fantasy world, based on the inherent rules to that world of course. So I have to ask you, which real directions do you get in real life? We are all just dumped into this world with nearly no direction and no f**ing idea of what we want to be or what we want to do for the rest of our life. We learn about those things from life, and from the environment and from what we ask. WHY should a role playing game be different? It shouldn't. That's why I think that TES is about the only RPG series that is worth playing.

[Kreij]

Being dumped into the world with no apparent direction is the hallmark trait of an open world RPG.
You make your own story (or find theirs if you want). Anything else is just another linear RPG.

Some people like that, some don't. Play the games you like.
IMO, Bethesda makes the best RPG there are (even with the game flaws).

Bethesda is doing their best to mirror the P&P RPGs within the constrains of computer software.
No one else is even attempting to do that in a single player game.

[digibucc]

and i for one love them for it!

i was an avid gamer before, but after Morrowind I had a whole new idea of what to expect from video games.
i didn't even think that level of immersion and addiction was possible in a video game, and i have yet to feel it sense.

oblivion was good, but not quite the same. by the looks though, they may be going in a positive direction

[Kreij]

I agree. Morrowind was better than Oblivion IMO, but anything new in the Elder Scrolls universe gets my hard earned money.

[AphexDreamer]

Oblivion certainly failed to invoke that certain feeling that Morrowind gave us all.

Despite that fact, after playing Oblivion I just couldn't go back to Morrowind, probably due to the graphics.

[Kreij]

Morrowind, because of it's surreal nature, had more of a sense of wonder while exploring.
Let's hope that Skyrim brings some of that back.

[erocker]

Oblivion was amazing when it came out. I remember seeing a picture of that game in a magazine or something and bought it just to see the scenery alone. That game made many people upgrade their graphics cards. It was the "Crysis" of video games before Crysis came out... and Far Cry to an extent. Skyrim will be a buy for the game world alone.

[AphexDreamer]

Originally Posted by erocker

Oblivion was amazing when it came out. I remember seeing a picture of that game in a magazine or something and bought it just to see the scenery alone. That game made many people upgrade their graphics cards. It was the "Crysis" of video games before Crysis came out... and Far Cry to an extent. Skyrim will be a buy for the game world alone.

Oblivion was the fist PC game that made me do my first upgrade. I remember buying my first Graphics Card (Radeon x1300) and in fact I think it was Oblivion that made me learn about Overclocking which in turn brought me here!

I actually have that game to thank for brining me here to TPU! That and Wizzard for making Systool. My first post here is about Systool lol.

[Kreij]

I remember watching the intro movie to Oblivion as the camera was panning from the sky around the city and losing my mind.
Unfortunatly, I never found my mind again. :/

[digibucc]

i custom built my first computer for oblivion

i had built before, but from barebones kits, etc.

[AphexDreamer]

Originally Posted by Kreij

I remember watching the intro movie to Oblivion as the camera was panning from the sky around the city and losing my mind.
Unfortunatly, I never found my mind again. :/

Yeah I know what you mean! Thats why I can't wait to have that feeling again with Skyrim!

[hellrazor]

Originally Posted by Kreij

Bethesda is doing their best to mirror the P&P RPGs within the constrains of computer software.
No one else is even attempting to do that in a single player game.

Did I miss something? I could have sworn NWN and Baldur's Gate and Icewindale and Fallout 1&2 were all created in this universe.

[Benetanegia]

Originally Posted by hellrazor

Did I miss something? I could have sworn NWN and Baldur's Gate and Icewindale and Fallout 1&2 were all created in this universe.

Those are based on Dungeaons&Dragons rules and while tabletop D&D is technically a P&P game, I don't usually consider it actual/original P&P, but rather a commercial tabletop game. While you may think it's the same, the difference is that D&D is a comercial RPG tabletop game with specific rules, while what I call P&P is the kind of RPG game that is created from scratch by the people playing it and that has no specific rules. In these games the prime objective is the creation of compelling stories and character development (not limited by rules on a book and some numbers), rather than following the rules and throwing dices in order to beat the objectives.

It's like when you played being a child (*). Your friends might be playing a Middle Earth kind of setting and you may suddenly join the game saying you are a robot from Delta Pi Andromeda, and as long as you explain why and how such a character would join the group and you convince the game master and a bunch of friends, you'd be accepted. (This is also posible under D&D because the rules specifically mention this posibility, but most people just play with the classes, races and skills specified by the playbook, it's <-- this last D&D that NWN, BG and Icewindale are based on, not the "open" one).

Also unlike D&D-like tabletop games on a P&P you can play without any statistics (although that's not common) and just play in terms like very strong, heroic/shy and whatnot. You are only limited by what your playing mates and game master accept as valid, because like I said the purpose of the game is not beatng the objectives you have been given based on some rules, the objective is ROLE PLAYING so if you have a very good imagination and you are good telling stories, only the sky is the limit. THIS is what role playing is and has always (historically) been. Dungeons&Dragons is something new that dates back to 1974, role playing is probably as antique as culture. (and probably much older, in the end, even chimps role play when they act as if they were humans)

* I have noticed that young people, the people that has completely grown in the era of modern video games have a worrying lack of imagination and few play as I would do when I was young, maybe that's the problem. And I'm talking about people just 5 years younger. I was born in 1983 so there was definately a videogame industry while I was growing, but those games strenghtened imagination rather than preventing it because they were so simple and limited (my parents worked hard to develop me out from VG and TV too something rare nowadays). Now it looks like kids need to be given everything. Seriously I've seen the case of kids who didn't know what to play if you take them to a park and they are not given some toy (like a ball) or if you don't give them "intructions". It's sad. We would just take anything from the ground and start playing as pirates or medieval and we didn't even need anything, our imagination and the thin air was more than enough. I'm not saying every kid is like that now, but I've seen many and I do see a trend...

Sorry for my long posts, there's a lot that I have to explain to make my points clear and I competely lack any skills for systhesis, specially when writing in a language that is not mine.

[entropy13]

So Benetanegia would rather hate one kind and like another rather than play and accept both?

I played Morrowind, Oblivion, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Fallout 1-3 and New Vegas, Dragon Age, Divinity II, Diablo 2, and consider all of them equally simply as RPGs. No distinctions whatsoever.

Although it helps the Forgotten Realms games that they have a rich literature; I have a lot of Forgotten Realms books (and no, I don't like Drizzt, and drows in general), and even Dragonlance books.

[left4lol]

Skyrim look good and all but Wtcher 2 has already take the cake as Best looking RPG in 2011, so Bestheda has to get the credit from somewhere else.

[Benetanegia]

Originally Posted by entropy13

So Benetanegia would rather hate one kind and like another rather than play and accept both?

I played Morrowind, Oblivion, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Fallout 1-3 and New Vegas, Dragon Age, Divinity II, Diablo 2, and consider all of them equally simply as RPGs. No distinctions whatsoever.

Although it helps the Forgotten Realms games that they have a rich literature; I have a lot of Forgotten Realms books (and no, I don't like Drizzt, and drows in general), and even Dragonlance books.

I have played those too, most of them. I only really enjoyed TES games. Actually I enjoyed all of them at the beginning, but others get boring after a while for me. I'm not saying the other RPGs are crap or that don't have to exist. It's the absolute opposite, all I'm saying is that I don't want TES to become like the rest. I don't like the other kind as much as I like TES, why should I condone them if they make TES V just like the rest? If you want to play the other kind of RPG, if you prefer the other types of games, play them and leave me (and the others who like TES better than others) alone, we want to play TES.

The market does not need yet another generic RPG, even if maybe the mayority likes that kind of game. There's room for games to please everybody. In the end Bethsoft will do what's best for their pocket, but it's absolutely legitimate for us, their fans, the people who supported them from the beginning, to ask them to give us what we want. They would be nobody without the money we spent on them.

EDIT: I have the original Dragonlance trilogy and love it btw (one of my favorite sagas, only after Trantor's (Foundation's) trilogy or Ender Wiggin saga). I even like it more than LOTR, which I've never been able to read completely lol, and I read a lot, so that's not the problem, i.e I already read everything from Asimov, everything Tom Clancy, Phillip K.Dick, Chricton, Orson Scott Card, Verne... I just cannot fathom Tolkien's writing style. Booooring. No offense.

[the54thvoid]

lol... just lol..

I love how Ben says 'young people' and he's an 80's child. I was born in 1974 young man, listen up....

I played dice based rpg's and the rules were required. Imagination was key, a setting was described by the GM (gamesmaster) and you had to see it and work with it in your head. Rules were there to stop pointlessness of action.
You were roleplaying - you were trying to improve your 'character' by achieving things. The rules were needed to create hurdles. No rules means little challenge. I played the first D&D (where you could be a professional 'elf' lol) and it was crap. Middle Earth Role Play was great (Iron Crown Enterprises).

But i digress. I love open RPG's. It's escapism for me. But i do agree with Ben, there's a saddening decline in imaginative games for kids these days

[1Kurgan1]

Originally Posted by Frick

I'm psychic, and very hostile towards Bethsoft.

EDIT on level scaling:

I think the very idea is pretty ridiculous to begin with. As your character grows the story should develop so that you move away from your starting area. If there is a reason the monsters or whatever is getting stronger in certain events it's ok, but to make the entire world grow with you just feels .. unnatural. There is no sense in it. Do someone train the sewer rats when you are away? Are there bands of teenagers equipping them with magical armour?

Any game like that will not be nearly as open. The storylines going to have to drag you in a pretty linear pat hto keep you fighting things that are appropriate for oyu, then oyu never go back to enjoy the older zones.

Originally Posted by Kreij

I remember watching the intro movie to Oblivion as the camera was panning from the sky around the city and losing my mind.
Unfortunatly, I never found my mind again. :/

I remember getting Oblivion and me and Marineborn sitting there and him saying "max it out". So I did on my x850 Pro, which was great for the time. And it was running smooth, then I seen a wolf... and my fps literally went to like 1, I barely managed to fight it off, then proceeded to drop the settings.