Nvidia Entering the CPU Business.

[CDdude55]

From Nvidia's official blog:

As you may have seen, NVIDIA announced today that it is developing high-performance ARM-based CPUs designed to power future products ranging from personal computers to servers and supercomputers.

Known under the internal codename “Project Denver,” this initiative features an NVIDIA CPU running the ARM instruction set, which will be fully integrated on the same chip as the NVIDIA GPU. This initiative is extremely important for NVIDIA and the computing industry for several reasons.

NVIDIA’s project Denver will usher in a new era for computing by extending the performance range of the ARM instruction-set architecture, enabling the ARM architecture to cover a larger portion of the computing space. Coupled with an NVIDIA GPU, it will provide the heterogeneous computing platform of the future by combining a standard architecture with awesome performance and energy efficiency.

ARM is already the standard architecture for mobile devices. Project Denver extends the range of ARM systems upward to PCs, data center servers, and supercomputers. ARM’s modern architecture, open business model, and vibrant eco-system have led to its pervasiveness in cell phones, tablets, and other embedded devices. Denver is the catalyst that will enable these same factors to propel ARM to become pervasive in higher-end systems.

Denver frees PCs, workstations and severs from the hegemony and inefficiency of the x86 architecture. For several years, makers of high-end computing platforms have had no choice about instruction-set architecture. The only option was the x86 instruction set with variable-length instructions, a small register set, and other features that interfered with modern compiler optimizations, required a larger area for instruction decoding, and substantially reduced energy efficiency.

http://blogs.nvidia.com/2011/01/proj...-of-computing/

[Thatguy]

Nvidia is in so much trouble right now.X86 is heading for phones.

[ron732]

I'm confused. How is the Denver project different from the Tegra or Tegra 2 chips?

[CDdude55]

Originally Posted by ron732

I'm confused. How is the Denver project different from the Tegra or Tegra 2 chips?

Tegra is for mobile devices, plus it's not a full blown CPU, it's the CPU, GPU, IMC, and chipsets built into a single package for mobility purposes.

Denver is supposed to be a new CPU design based on the ARM instructions(Tegra is ARM too though) which is supposed to be implemented not only in supercomputers but mainstream desktops and servers. Project Denver is basically just them trying to expand ARM out of the mobile market and into our desktop PC's and servers.

[Yukikaze]

Oh, if this works out, this might be interesting. However, I have serious doubts it will be a success due to the lack of mainstream software built for the ARM instruction sets. It will most likely work for specialized applications, though.

[Inioch]

This comes after the announcement by M$ that Windows 8 will also support ARM machines. So Denver and other ARM based machines can run Win 8 on netbook, all-in-one machines and such.

Edit: Source

[Yukikaze]

Originally Posted by Inioch

This comes after the announcement by M$ that Windows 8 will also support ARM machines. So Denver and other ARM based machines can run Win 8 on netbook, all-in-one machines and such.

Very interesting. ARM has quite the potential as an architecture, especially when one considers just how inefficient x86 and its derivatives truly are compared to more modern instruction sets.

I do not really see this dislodge x86 from the throne, though if it does we will be going towards some turbulent times in the industry.

Change never comes easy.

[Wrigleyvillain]

Doz It Has DRM?

[xrealm20]

hmm... another risc based processor is moving into desktop/laptop/server realm of computing. These chips (ARM) have a chance at getting a good market share. Anyone doubting the power of risc processors can look at the Power line of chips from IBM/Motorola.

Granted, I think that ARM has a lot of maturing to do in order to become truly competitive, but it has a chance.

[Yukikaze]

Originally Posted by Wrigleyvillain

Doz It Has DRM?

Can it run Crysis ?

[inferKNOX]

It was always going to happen & I wish nV well, but somehow feel that these CPUs will be to nV what Larabee was to Intel, ie, viable for now until the release of the next series.
To elaborate, Intel was working on Larabee, then ATi released the HD5000s with phenomenal performance compared to the previous generation (and later nV did the same). Soon after the HD5000s, Larabee got shelved. That doesn't seem like coincidence to me, they probably saw that the leap as being beyond them.
Now nV is looking at what CPUs are today and thinking, "We can do that!" However, when the Bulldozers and Sandy Bridges arrive, they're gonna rewrite the CPU landscape and probably leave nV shell-shocked. And if I know Intel, if the FXs do actually challenge Sandy Bridge, Intel is going to go into overdrive, and AMD is probably gonna have anticipated as much and have something hidden up it's sleeve especially to do it's best to keep up, accelerating things to a pace that an inexperienced company in the CPU market is probably gonna find hard to keep up with.
That being said though, if VIA can do it, nV may just stand a chance. I wonder if a single market can carry so many players though.
We'll see...

[Steevo]

Fine for small devices, but more memory and faster processing is the way of the future, and the core improvements Intel/AMD have with integration is going to be in the lead. No one wants to recompile all their software to work on a new device, they want a device that is just the same but faster. Thus the reason Iphones/Ipads, PCs/netbooks/laptops, all only move on direction.


The only new market is for wifi/integrated devices, and Texas Instruments already has a large corner of this market. Unless Nvidia is willing to get into bed with TI or some other well founded company, spill their guts and team up they are going to see a slow adoption. ATI tried it and sold out. Now they have a X86 license, experience in chipsets, IMC, a large partner network, and alot of good GPU tech.

[digibucc]

Originally Posted by inferKNOX

...when the Bulldozers and Sandy Bridges arrive, they're gonna rewrite the CPU landscape...

no more than i7 or phenom ii did, really. the point being the instruction set. you can make technologically advanced hardware, but it still has to rely on software, on the instruction set.

no matter how powerful an x86 processor is, it's still an x86 processor, that's the point.

I see nvidia having a long road to gain, but i see it as only getting easier in the future. as people use tablets, smartphones, netbooks, etc - the "computer" itself is being redesigned, and people are starting to look at a machine for the application they want - rather than an application that is compatible to their machine , that's a big difference - and the one that i think gives NV the most promise here.
(note: by application, i mean how they are applying the technology, how it is used. not necessarily the software, but not necessarily excluding software either)

[Steevo]

Newer processors are X64, and X86 compatible. There is alot of software written for it, Apple uses it now, they moved away from RISC based power PC hardware to more mainstream X86/64 for a performance increase.

Intel currently uses some of the RISC based tech, on lower performance stuff, integrated crap, and other application specific items.

[inferKNOX]

Originally Posted by digibucc

no more than i7 or phenom ii did...

Maybe at first yes, but you are forgetting that this time there will be more factors at play than just gradual progression of tech. Once AMD gets in proximity of Intel, there's going to be all out WAR! That should really accelerate thing beyond normal IMO.

BTW, I read the whole 'DRM in Intel CPUs' thread and when I finally got to the end and itching to comment, I was so disappointed to find it was closed just because people calling for it, despite you guys all being calm.
I wanted to agree with you among other things. Anyway, let me not derail this thread.

EDIT: I have no doubt AMD & Intel are and have been looking into ARM for a while by now too.

[digibucc]

@infernox - true, but i still see the stagnation of x86, and even if not risc know it's only a matter of time before we move past. if we still use x86 in ten years, there is a problem, imo.

@steevo
i thought x86/64 were very similar, both with variable-width vs fixed, which is one of the main draws of risc.

is x64 not x86 architecture with the wider bit length?

[Fourstaff]

I think the x64 is another extension of x86 to keep it alive. No doubt we are still going to be using x86 for the next ten years or so, but for simple devices (such as a media player, home computer for internets and such) will move away from x86. Industry stuff like 3DS Max, Adobe Photoshop, etc etc will still largely use x86. At least that's what I am thinking right now.

Nvidia entering CPU? Not too surprising imo, given that they did push very hard to make a gpgpu which kinda succeeded. They also have Tegra, so its only logical to move forwards. Pricing and target product range will cause the chip to make it or break it. Performance wise, if we can use Atom for so long, its says lots about how much the general public cares about performance.

[inferKNOX]

Originally Posted by digibucc

@infernox - true, but i still see the stagnation of x86, and even if not risc know it's only a matter of time before we move past. if we still use x86 in ten years, there is a problem, imo.

Yeah, no doubt that they (Intel & AMD) will move past it in to long term. They've been hinting at it for a while now, I remember reading up on quantum & light-based processors a little while ago. I'm sure they've been looking at different architectures including ARM and are deciding/working/planning on an alternate architecture by now.
In the short term however, I think they're gonna be doing some major x86-64 stomping about as they battle it out, and nV might find itself scraping it's CPUs off their proverbial boots for a while.

I sincerely doubt nV could single-handedly hand it to Intel, AMD & VIA, who are all on x86-64 with the intro of ARM on the desktop, at least not in the short term, but that's just my opinion & I know nothing about ARM really.
I do think though that if they (Intel, etc) also decide on ARM, it could give nV the edge since they're already going for it.

[Mike0409]

This is pretty interesting. Windows 7 doesn't currently support ARM, but the next Windows release should..

[Steevo]

AMD's implementation of X64 on their first chips was what pushed them past Intel, it was new and faster per clock instruction than Intel was. Other programs are already achieving performance gains by moving to X64 native code.

There is more than just processor speed at play here, ARM instructions are very efficient, very compact, until you want to do something like Java, Flash, other out of order instructions, http://www.adobe.com/products/flashplayer/systemreqs/ 100Mhz faster with NEON and dedicated hardware acceleration is required for a RISC processor VS 450Mhz for a standard x86 CPU. Mac PowerPC is 50Mhz higher.


The other factor is ARM has been perfecting SOC with its multiple vendors and suppliers for years, do you think TI is going to hand over its patents, tech or proprietary information to Nvidia?

Once Intel/AMD get their systems ironed out, and the fact they are producing faster chips, with better graphics, with lower TDP as they are moving ahead with fabrication process, I foresee X64 SOC from them becoming the norm.

[Thatguy]

Originally Posted by Yukikaze

Very interesting. ARM has quite the potential as an architecture, especially when one considers just how inefficient x86 and its derivatives truly are compared to more modern instruction sets.

I do not really see this dislodge x86 from the throne, though if it does we will be going towards some turbulent times in the industry.

Change never comes easy.

the problem is that by the time ARM becomes instruction and mip comparable to x86, its going to look just like x86. so basically x86 is it, until we invent totally new technology.

[EastCoasthandle]

I really can't take this serious at this time. I'm sure if put to a vote few (if any) would leave the x86 for ARM using the PC knowing the level of compatibility offered with software out there. This looks nothing to me then some sort of device initiative not a PC one. People are playing games on their mobile devices which don't use x86. Heck, even Rage is on mobile and that's not even out yet!

To me, this is more about MS entering other potential markets (mobile and other devices). MS wants their software on all devices not just PC. Regardless if it's x86 or not.

[DigitalUK]

sandy and bulldozer will make no difference to nvidia with arm or risc cpu's as they are more designed for mobile devices using lower resoultions, im actually more surprised that risc hasnt come further than it has since the 90's, and the main reason has to be MS and x86. thank god for IBM or we would have 500mhz £1500 x86 Pentium2 cpus.

[Thatguy]

Originally Posted by DigitalUK

sandy and bulldozer will make no difference to nvidia with arm or risc cpu's as they are more designed for mobile devices using lower resoultions, im actually more surprised that risc hasnt come further than it has since the 90's, and the main reason has to be MS and x86. thank god for IBM or we would have 500mhz £1500 x86 Pentium2 cpus.

The reason ARM hasn't come further is becuase its to limiting from a technology standpoint. There is nothing wrong with x86 aside from power and at 25nm or so in process tech those difference are going to be so moot, they won't matter. X86 has a huge software ecosystem ready to get on phones and other small devices. Get ready to x86 to remove ARM from yet another market shortly.

[Steevo]

RISC by nature and name is specific application only.

Reduced Instruction Set Compute, the more instructions the more overhead, the more lost cycles, the more registers are needed for operations and the more cache misses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_OMAP


Once you see what it does you begin to understand, it works in a set top box for cable, with specific other hardware present. It works in a phone, with many limitations. It works in a reader, with specific hardware and software.


Now I want to play a new game, render video, edit photos, my wife wants to watch a netflix movie, or stream home movies on WMC, or listen to music while she works out, she wants to video chat with my parents, look at e-mail, shop online, pay bills online, check her balance, make a new spreadsheet for this years taxes, I want to VPN in and access my whole media library, i want to LAN game with friends, watch Hulu, play around on the net, print pictures.


Currently I could use my PC and do all of that, or I could spend thousands to buy gadgets to do it, and they woudn't be able to do it all in a year or two, as the tech would have evolved, but my PC could keep up as it has.

Originally Posted by DigitalUK

sandy and bulldozer will make no difference to nvidia with arm or risc cpu's as they are more designed for mobile devices using lower resoultions, im actually more surprised that risc hasnt come further than it has since the 90's, and the main reason has to be MS and x86. thank god for IBM or we would have 500mhz £1500 x86 Pentium2 cpus.

IBM makes PowerPC chips, but surprisingly their whole desktop lineup used X86 chips, and they helped make OS/2 for desktops with Microsoft specifically for X86. IBM is more RISC dataserver based than a high end gaming FPS machine that can also..........