Inception: is it possible?

[Easy Rhino]

many people have seen the movie 'Inception' and wonder, is it possible? can we share our dreams and can idea be planted in our minds without us knowing? thoughts?

[Yukikaze]

Sharing of dreams would require a means for two brains to communicate while sleeping. Presumably via some sort of (very Matrix-ish) "network" interface. So while there is a possibility this is feasible, I highly doubt we're going to see something of the sort within our life time.

Planting ideas in our minds without us knowing is done every day. It is called marketing, advertising and manipulating public opinion.

[Nesters]

Originally Posted by Yukikaze

Planting ideas in our minds without us knowing is done every day. It is called marketing, advertising and manipulating public opinion.

This.
Sharing dreams however is more abstract subject. It would require two brains to work at the same frenquency while also communicating with each other. Not an easy call.

[DanTheBanjoman]

Interesting that you wondered that, as I was just trying to make you wonder exactly that. I'd say test successful.
Now consider my statement a lie.

[digibucc]

yuki and nesters really said it though. the techniques used by advertisers
are exactly what is needed to implant ideas into peoples heads.

as far as implanting memories they believe truly to be their own.... and as
far as sharing dreams, i can only say we are in no way advanced enough to
even know if that is possible.

we don't know how the synapses and neurons in our minds create thoughts
and dreams in the first place, let alone have any idea of whether or not it is
possible to ... "re-write" them.

[Yukikaze]

Originally Posted by digibucc

as far as implanting memories they believe truly to be their own.... and as
far as sharing dreams, i can only say we are in no way advanced enough to
even know if that is possible.

This is also possible. Remember that study which placed people in fake "family photos" and asked them whether they remembered the experience? There were people in that study who created an entire fake memory to fit with the picture and they believed in it as if it were real.

Human memory is a very faulty mechanism.

[digibucc]

Originally Posted by Yukikaze

There were people in that study who created an entire fake memory to fit with the picture and they believed in it as if it were real.

Human memory is a very faulty mechanism.

i know what you are talking about. our memory is so crappy that we fill in the blanks with
bits of stories from movies, books, thin air, etc.

and i assume someone with enough forethought, intelligence, and resources could build a
scenario as to make you believe an invented story.

but that's a dirty way around it, and still doesn't provide a technical understanding of
where these thoughts beliefs and ideas originate, and our held, in our minds.

so it's more like tricking the brain's weaknesses, rather than forming a complete
understanding and placing specific thoughts and memories where you want them.

[TIGR]

I have no doubt the technology will within a few decades exist to connect multiple minds together directly. Brain-computer interfaces have been researched since the 70s (DARPA) and significant progress has been made.

But anyway, would we still call them "dreams" if minds were communicating with each other? It depends on the method and execution, I suppose, but I would be tempted to consider it more a sort of shared virtual reality experience. When in a dreaming state, the body is essentially paralyzed while the mind remains active in an "unconscious" state. We can effect the paralysis with technology and "disconnect" the mind from sensory inputs (auditory, visual, etc.) so as to keep the "dreamer" unaware of reality, but could truly unconscious minds communicate, or would they have to be in [some sort of] a conscious state?

Of course, even if the subject were not really dreaming but were in fact conscious, he could be tricked into thinking he was dreaming. Projecting a reality that his conscious mind will assume must be a dream would probably not be hard, and I imagine the use of sedatives would help in more ways than one.

As for the "planting an idea" part, Inception is vague about just how "deeply" implanted it must be. Like others have said, planting ideas in our heads without us knowing it already happens. I think the depth with which an idea can be planted will depend not so much on technology as on an understanding of neuroscience and the individual's psychology.

Ironically, I feel like I'm in a half-conscious state right now and about to go to bed. Been up 40 hours so forgive me if this is nonsensical.

[Yukikaze]

Originally Posted by digibucc

i know what you are talking about. our memory is so crappy that we fill in the blanks with
bits of stories from movies, books, thin air, etc.

and i assume someone with enough forethought, intelligence, and resources could build a
scenario as to make you believe an invented story.

but that's a dirty way around it, and still doesn't provide a technical understanding of
where these thoughts beliefs and ideas originate, and our held, in our minds.

Well, there are plenty of things we don't understand completely, but we can still manipulate, influence and take advantage of. The human memory is just one more on that list

[digibucc]

Originally Posted by Yukikaze

Well, there are plenty of things we don't understand completely, but we can still manipulate, influence and take advantage of. The human memory is just one more on that list

fair enough, but my point is more that, without a complete understanding in these regards,

it is theoretically possible to implant the idea that "i want cheesecake with dinner"
but not theoretically possible to implant the knowledge necessary to bake cheesecake.

we can influence people's thoughts, but are not at the level where we can directly
communicate with the information the brain holds. we don't know how it is held, so
therefore have no way of interacting with it directly, short of old-fashioned "learning"

so while we may be able to manipulate the mind, we don't even know how a process
of inputting ideas directly into one's mind would work, let alone have one or plans for
one in existence.

[Yukikaze]

Originally Posted by digibucc

fair enough, but my point is more that, without a complete understanding in these regards,

it is theoretically possible to implant the idea that "i want cheesecake with dinner"
but not theoretically possible to implant the knowledge necessary to bake cheesecake.

we can influence people's thoughts, but are not at the level where we can directly
communicate with the information the brain holds. we don't know how it is held, so
therefore have no way of interacting with it directly, short of old-fashioned "learning"

so while we may be able to manipulate the mind, we don't even know how a process
of inputting ideas directly into one's mind would work, let alone have one or plans for
one in existence.

Oh, I agree completely. We're not yet able to directly manipulate the information stored in a human brain. Truth to be told, we do not even know how exactly this information is stored in the first place.

Our ways of manipulating said information are usually either very tricky (like the trick we were discussing earlier), or very unpleasant (trauma, torture, etc). It is a bit like using a nail gun as a hammer - It works because it is heavy enough, but it would work a lot better if used properly.

This discussion reminds me of the lecturer in an "Introduction to AI" course I took a few years ago. He started the first lecture by saying that usually, the first thing done in a course is a quick definition of what the course name means. He then said that "the only problem is that to define 'Artificial Intelligence' we first need to define 'Intelligence' and we can't quite do that yet."

[KieranD]

Linking minds together is a bad thing for anyone who wants to retain their personality, just think of the borg or the geth.

Manipulation of the human mind already occurs but what you are talking about is a physical manipulation like actually being able to see the mind as a cognitive entity.

We all know about propaganda and how that instils the mind but to physically implant knowledge into ones mind without actually learning something by traditional methods its possible in the future but then again anything is possible via the magic that is speculation.

[digibucc]

Originally Posted by Yukikaze

"the only problem is that to define 'Artificial Intelligence' we first need to define 'Intelligence' and we can't quite do that yet."

i actually loled at that

[trickson]

The Brain works on chemicals with receptors and nerves and every one has a specific frequency at witch they work on . There are so many variables involved with the brain and each individual brain I think it would be almost impossible to link dreams from one person to another . I am far from an expert on the brain or even how it works , But I would have to say great movie good fantasy nothing more .

[kid41212003]

Easy is paranoid.

[KieranD]

Originally Posted by kid41212003

Easy is paranoid.

Terrified of the thought police me thinks!

[Yukikaze]

Oh....and:

Originally Posted by digibucc

but not theoretically possible to implant the knowledge necessary to bake cheesecake.

Why would you do that in the first place? The cake is a lie

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by DanTheBanjoman

Interesting that you wondered that, as I was just trying to make you wonder exactly that. I'd say test successful.
Now consider my statement a lie.

I made you inject that thought into Easys mind. Due to my infraction count being so high I had to troll through a troll so that my true trollieness wouldn't be reversed trolled with a ban. Also you are not reading this.

[Mathragh]

As a student in neurobiology I believe I can give you atleast some scientific input on this question.

The process of sleeping involves the deactivation of the receptive ability of your hippocampus. The hippocampus is(as far as we know today) the part of the brain that is responsible for intergrating incoming signals, filtering of signals and preparing relevant 'information' for being stored.

This is the reason why people generally do not remember their dreams, and that while they sleep they are not able to store new information. This gets different, however if the person wakes up, or partially wakes up while dreaming, since the hippocampus is active when awake, and is able to take in information again, and after that, preparing it for storage(so you can remember the dream aswell).

There is also still a lot to be researched before we can directly manipulate information in the brain in a usefull way . This is because it is not yet clear how the information our brains contain is stored.

So, I have to say: No.

Firstly because while you are sleeping, you're actually not able to recieve and store new information(because of the deactivation of the hippocampus)
Secondly because we do not (yet) have means to relevantly add, or edit information stored in our brains.

[digibucc]

Originally Posted by trickson

The Brain works on chemicals with receptors and nerves and every one has a specific frequency at witch they work on . There are so many variables involved with the brain and each individual brain I think it would be almost impossible to link dreams from one person to another . I am far from an expert on the brain or even how it works , But I would have to say great movie good fantasy nothing more .

not to mention all we know is the physical construct. we can use electrical impulses
to make certain areas react, but we can't pinpoint a physical structure in the brain
where consciousness comes from. or our beliefs. they transcend our currently
physical understanding of the brain, and are therefore far out of reach.

note:i am not being supernatural here. i am just saying it is currently beyond our
understanding. i have every confidence we will one day be able to explain it fully.

[DanTheBanjoman]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

I made you inject that thought into Easys mind. Due to my infraction count being so high I had to troll through a troll so that my true trollieness wouldn't be reversed trolled with a ban. Also you are not reading this.

Are you sure that's what really happened?

[DanTheBanjoman]

Omg, a forum within a forum.

[TheMailMan78]

Originally Posted by DanTheBanjoman

Are you sure that's what really happened?

What happen?

[DanTheBanjoman]

Originally Posted by TheMailMan78

What happen?

Who are you?

[digibucc]

Kick!