Can AMD or Intel create a real SOC solution; universal for consoles and PCs?

[EastCoasthandle]

With the way things are heading with Llano, Ivy Bridge, etc I wonder if we will ever see the day that they create a SOC solution that can be interchangeable with consoles yet still powerful enough for PCs.

[crazyeyesreaper]

the new APUs in the A series are pretty much at that point right now.

well in theory anyway there performance is better then that of the PS3 / 360 so while there not up to standard compared to high end PCs as far as console systems are concerned yes a SOC is capable of that and then some already. by 2014 when the consoles are finally replaced i am willing to be that yes an SOC solution will be easily interchangeable.

[Thatguy]

Originally Posted by crazyeyesreaper

the new APUs in the A series are pretty much at that point right now.

well in theory anyway there performance is better then that of the PS3 / 360 so while there not up to standard compared to high end PCs as far as console systems are concerned yes a SOC is capable of that and then some already. by 2014 when the consoles are finally replaced i am willing to be that yes an SOC solution will be easily interchangeable.

I am willing to bet in 2014 next gen consoules will be x86 socs, it should be at 20nm even on the low end stuff by then which should be some absolutely retarded power for a consoule.

[crazyeyesreaper]

that why it will most likely be a CPU+GPU hybrid like the APU example later this year AMD will have quadcore cpus with a gpu around 5670/gts 440 performance or better, in a tdp of 125w or less, the old phat PS3 uses nearly 300w, so at this point an APU is as fast as a PS3 with real x86 instruction sets, full direct X and open GL support and uses 1/3 the power 3 years from now id expect to see 8 core cpus with gpus around 5850 performance on die. at 125w tdp. only time will tell though.

also need to remember consoles tend to be closed systems with a greater then 80% efficiency, comparing that to a PC which is lucky to get 40-50% efficiency, thats like adding an extra 40-50% performance to your current PC like magic lol. would mean the next generation of APUs etc if applied to a console and at greater then 80% efficiency would be rather amazing performance wise to TDP wise, but thats still some time away.

[Thatguy]

Originally Posted by crazyeyesreaper

that why it will most likely be a CPU+GPU hybrid like the APU example later this year AMD will have quadcore cpus with a gpu around 5670/gts 440 performance or better, in a tdp of 125w or less, the old phat PS3 uses nearly 300w, so at this point an APU is as fast as a PS3 with real x86 instruction sets, full direct X and open GL support and uses 1/3 the power 3 years from now id expect to see 8 core cpus with gpus around 5850 performance on die. at 125w tdp. only time will tell though.

also need to remember consoles tend to be closed systems with a greater then 80% efficiency, comparing that to a PC which is lucky to get 40-50% efficiency, thats like adding an extra 40-50% performance to your current PC like magic lol. would mean the next generation of APUs etc if applied to a console and at greater then 80% efficiency would be rather amazing performance wise to TDP wise, but thats still some time away.

actually in 3 years they should be able to stuff a whole 8 core cpu and a 6980 gpu on the same 300mm die if 18nm matures quickly enough. AFIAK they are planning to skip 28nm or something and go for something around 24nm and going to 18nm after that.

So, could be kind of silly. Figure a 40nm 6980 is 3mm and a 8core cpu is a bit over that. It would be entirely possiable to see that level of performance at 18-22nm in 3 years.

Not to mention if they bump the die size to 450nm or so, they should be able to fit nearly the entire freaking nb/sb/pcie etc all in one package.

AMD is planning for 5 years down the road while intel is chasing clock speed

typical.

[crazyeyesreaper]

true but AMD has yet to really leave socket 775 in the dust let alone compete with i3 i5 i7 first gen and were now on Intels 2nd gen i3 i5 i7, with ivybridge expected end of the year. with AMDs bulldozer performance rumored to be 50% to 150% of a Phenom IIs performance depending on the task, so a modular chip that half as fast to 50% faster isnt going to cut it if thats the case, Intel has the x86 stuff down, problem is there gpus still suck ass. so they wont be leading the SOC market when it comes to a console / PC acceptable chip. and 28nm will be used for GPUs 32nm was skipped on gpu side of things, but point is it hasnt happened yet and only time will tell.

[Thatguy]

Originally Posted by crazyeyesreaper

true but AMD has yet to really leave socket 775 in the dust let alone compete with i3 i5 i7 first gen and were now on Intels 2nd gen i3 i5 i7, with ivybridge expected end of the year. with AMDs bulldozer performance rumored to be 50% to 150% of a Phenom IIs performance depending on the task, so a modular chip that half as fast to 50% faster isnt going to cut it if thats the case, Intel has the x86 stuff down, problem is there gpus still suck ass. so they wont be leading the SOC market when it comes to a console / PC acceptable chip. and 28nm will be used for GPUs 32nm was skipped on gpu side of things, but point is it hasnt happened yet and only time will tell.

Your missing my point, AMD is designing for SOC, Intel is still chasing process.

Pretty soon AMD's design strategy will pay off. Low cost single chip systems.It doesn;t have to be faster per clock, it just has to be more powerful.

[Doherz]

Intels chasing process, graphics and IPC from what I can see. Also they seem to be doing alright in lowering overall power consumption.

AMD has a big advantage in the graphics department yes, but just look at the improvements sandybridge brought to the table. If they keep improving at a similar rate that lead won't be enough for AMD to own the SOC market.

IMO using an SOC for new consoles wouldn't be feasible. Even 2-3 years from now I can't see an SOC powerful enough to run games at full 1080p in 3D with all the bells and whistles at a reasonable price, which is what consoles will need to overtake pc's in terms of graphical performance. Maybe I'm underestimating the advantage hard coding for specific hardware gives, but I can't see it just yet.

[Damn_Smooth]

Originally Posted by Doherz

Intels chasing process, graphics and IPC from what I can see. Also they seem to be doing alright in lowering overall power consumption.

AMD has a big advantage in the graphics department yes, but just look at the improvements sandybridge brought to the table. If they keep improving at a similar rate that lead won't be enough for AMD to own the SOC market.

IMO using an SOC for new consoles wouldn't be feasible. Even 2-3 years from now I can't see an SOC powerful enough to run games at full 1080p in 3D with all the bells and whistles at a reasonable price, which is what consoles will need to overtake pc's in terms of graphical performance. Maybe I'm underestimating the advantage hard coding for specific hardware gives, but I can't see it just yet.

Consoles are going to need a lot more than that to overtake a pc. They are going to need interchangeable parts, which would just make them a pc anyway.

Even if they made a console with the highest end parts available, It would still be outdone in less than a year. Not to mention that that console would cost too much to be sold as a console anyway.

[Doherz]

By overtake the PC I meant, have a graphical lead for roughly a year, just like the current generation of consoles did minus the wii.

The model works by upping the graphical horsepower to the best it can be for a reasonable price. With hard coding to increase the capabilities of the consoles and massive economies of scale knocking the price down they can have that one year lead.

Simple thing is consoles are cheaper and more conveniant. I put more effort and more money into a gaming rig that lasts 2-3 years than the previous 3 generations of of console hardware dating back to 96 when I got my first playstation.

[Damn_Smooth]

I see your point and pc gaming is more expensive, but I do believe that in this case, you get what you pay for. I too am looking forward to the next gen of consoles because then we will get games that push our pc's. And, I might need a new blu-ray player when PS4 comes out.

I just hope that they lay off the motion control and give us full keyboard and mouse support.

[Doherz]

Oh yeah you do get what you pay for. I'm looking forward to the consoles because like you said new consoles raise the bar for the pc too. Plus I'm quite partial to a few console exclusives.

The raising of the bar is the only reason why I can't see an SOC in the next gen consoles, if microsoft and sony manage to do it on an SOC it could only mean good things for consumers I would have thought.

[Damn_Smooth]

I completely agree, if they can make a s.o.c. powerful enough, that would only mean great things for the cost and production of the console.

That situation would be pure win for everybody.

I also agree about console exclusives. They are the reason I still have my PS3. The pc doesn't have an action adventure game that can touch God of War in my opinion.

[thunderising]

Originally Posted by EastCoasthandle

With the way things are heading with Llano, Ivy Bridge, etc I wonder if we will ever see the day that they create a SOC solution that can be interchangeable with consoles yet still powerful enough for PCs.

well if they do that, they would be killing of the 600-700$ GPU market entirely. Now why would they do that?

[Neuromancer]

Originally Posted by thunderising

well if they do that, they would be killing of the 600-700$ GPU market entirely. Now why would they do that?

Why would it kill off the high end discrete card market? A good SOC can run the integrated GPU when low power requirements are needed and fire up the crossfire "9880" GPUs when high end gaming performance is needed

[Thatguy]

Originally Posted by Doherz

Intels chasing process, graphics and IPC from what I can see. Also they seem to be doing alright in lowering overall power consumption.

AMD has a big advantage in the graphics department yes, but just look at the improvements sandybridge brought to the table. If they keep improving at a similar rate that lead won't be enough for AMD to own the SOC market.

IMO using an SOC for new consoles wouldn't be feasible. Even 2-3 years from now I can't see an SOC powerful enough to run games at full 1080p in 3D with all the bells and whistles at a reasonable price, which is what consoles will need to overtake pc's in terms of graphical performance. Maybe I'm underestimating the advantage hard coding for specific hardware gives, but I can't see it just yet.

AMD is designing for 5 years from today, intel is designing for today, by looking ahead, AMD will be in a better position as process tech allows more things in a die slot. Think about it. how much stuff can you fit on the die at 18 nm, at 350mm I think nearly everything. AMD has better thermal control in thoery on the new bulldozer design, they have good thermal control on the gpu's, they have good over all thermal envelopes.

In fact I'd bet at 14nm we see sizeable portions of ram on the soc as well.Think about it, 14nm 400mm die, 1-2 gb or ram, gpu with 1100shaders,8 cores, nb,sb etc. Likely it can all be put into one soc.

thermals will be pretty good and so will power consumption.

try looking over the horizon for a change.

[a_ump]

Originally Posted by Thatguy

AMD is designing for 5 years from today, intel is designing for today, by looking ahead, AMD will be in a better position as process tech allows more things in a die slot. Think about it. how much stuff can you fit on the die at 18 nm, at 350mm I think nearly everything. AMD has better thermal control in thoery on the new bulldozer design, they have good thermal control on the gpu's, they have good over all thermal envelopes.

In fact I'd bet at 14nm we see sizeable portions of ram on the soc as well.Think about it, 14nm 400mm die, 1-2 gb or ram, gpu with 1100shaders,8 cores, nb,sb etc. Likely it can all be put into one soc.

thermals will be pretty good and so will power consumption.

try looking over the horizon for a change.

It's going to be a while i believe until we see 14nm. I believe current process reaches diminishing returns at around 18-22nm or so. They're going to have to invent a new process to reach anything smaller, and gone will be the advantages of a smaller process until they do so. Research will have to blow up architecturally to improve performance.

[crazyeyesreaper]

either way i think SOC will happen i mean hell amd is releasing essentially a Phenom II 955 + 5670 on the same die at 100w TDP so SOC could easily be used in consoles and PCs by next year

you have to remember consoles have far higher efficiency as there ment to do 1 task, makes usage of the hardware easier for developers to code for. so if a 400 shader 5670 is essentially 200% faster then a 7800gt which is roughly the performance lvl of the PS3's gpu / the 360s x1800 performance level gpu,

so in essence
200% faster then consoles as is, next year should see the release of parts in the 300% improvement range.


so 80%-95% efficiency on console vs probably 30-40% on pc means you need usually double the hardware power to get equal results, this basically means look at a dual core i3 530 + gts 450 or Phenom II 955 + 5770 now add 40% to its performance, it dosent exactly work like that but im giving rough idea of whats happening,

the fact you can get a quadcore + 5670 on a single chip at 100w tdp is essential 1/3 the first gen 360 / PS3 power requirment and double its performance capability. end of next year that performance gap will widen, so by the time the next console hits. soc chip with highly efficient coding could easily give enough performance for the next console generation. as we wont be leaving 1080p behind any time soon.

good way to look at it by 2014 the same time frame as the transition from 3850- 4850-5850 in performance will have taken place.

so on an SOC front that would be roughly 400 shaders 4cores 650shaders 4cores 800shaders 6 cores being in the real of possibility in terms of advancement. only time will really tell.

[cheesy999]

Originally Posted by a_ump

It's going to be a while i believe until we see 14nm. I believe current process reaches diminishing returns at around 18-22nm or so. They're going to have to invent a new process to reach anything smaller, and gone will be the advantages of a smaller process until they do so. Research will have to blow up architecturally to improve performance.

Intel already did this, thats what all that 3d transistor stuff was on about, by using 3 dimensional transistors those sizes can easily be achieved

[bostonbuddy]

Slap a CPU and 2GPUs in a box, call it the xbox 3 and release that sucker

[a_ump]

Originally Posted by bostonbuddy

Slap a CPU and 2GPUs in a box, call it the xbox 3 and release that sucker

that would be interesting, using 2 cheaper GPU's in tandem in a console instead of a single more expensive one for next gen. Wouldn't that make it harder for dev's to code for it though?

[cheesy999]

Originally Posted by bostonbuddy

Slap a CPU and 2GPUs in a box, call it the xbox 3 and release that sucker

since when have 2 gpu's ever been better value or performance then 1 faster one

[a_ump]

Originally Posted by cheesy999

since when have 2 gpu's ever been better value or performance then 1 faster one

well, with consoles the hardware is utilized extremely efficient, so i was along the lines of thinking that the same benefits would apply to 2 gpu's in tandem. Though your point is valid, it was just an idea :P

[bostonbuddy]

you put 2 and make the os versatile so you can release it w/ the most power possible and later release a cpu + 1 gpu version w/o having to launch a new consul ie similar to the xbox or ps3 slim. And even later release a version w/ just a powerful apu.
2 of the most powerful gpu's possible is faster then just one.

[Neuromancer]

Originally Posted by cheesy999

since when have 2 gpu's ever been better value or performance then 1 faster one

Any arguable response, especially with nvidia. Most of their products are better doubled up and cheaper yes?