No Performance Difference Between My Old 5770 and New 6870 - Get My Money Back?

[Mussels]

thread cleaned.


keep it that way.

[SkipCameron]

Originally Posted by Bo$$

I am assuming those mods are eating all your VRAM, i think you should swap it for a 2GB card, you'll see a fair boost.

I understand this will sound stupid but did you format your HDD when you swapped out your parts?

I did format my HDD when I swapped the CPU/MoBo/RAM which is part of why I haven't reloaded all of my Fallout mods yet (it takes a while to get everything working properly).

[SkipCameron]

Originally Posted by Dent1

OK guys, we need to stop blaming his PSU, his CPU, vram and other nonsense. If his performance hasnt improved it's most likely driver related. The 6870 is significantly faster thant he 5770 so much so that he should see an obvious enhancement in performance. TPU shows a 35% difference.


http://tpucdn.com/reviews/HIS/Radeon...es/perfrel.gif

I was wondering about this but I downloaded the most up-to-date driver from the AMD website as soon as I installed the card and I've used Catalyst Control Center and GameBooster to verify that the drivers are all up to date, and they are.

[SkipCameron]

Originally Posted by pantherx12

Could you try a different game or benchmark please?

Fallout isn't all that hard to run and I believe it has a frame cap of 60 fps ( so you won't see a performance difference here)

my 6870 was a great card upgrade from my 5770, I was nearly laughing at some benchmarks being double the speed.

I'll run some benchmarks on The Witcher 2 today, but I only started playing that after upgrading my CPU/MoBo/RAM. When my 6870 finally arrived Wednesday I popped it in, updated to the latest drivers, and fired up The Witcher 2 and didn't notice much of a difference. There were still points where it was dropping from a 50+ average into the low 30s-high 20s, the same as with my 5770.

Unfortunately, Fallout 3 and New Vegas are probably my favorite games and so I really want my system to be able to run THEM really well, so a performance boost in Furmark or Supreme Commander doesn't interest me for the money I'm spending.

As for the 60FPS cap, my hope was that even with the cap the 6870 would hold Fallout at a steady 50+ where my 5770 often dropped into the 30s and even 20s (like approaching the US Capitol building battleground where tons of NPCs and particle effects are on screen), but I'm having the same issues with the 6870.

I've also had repeated CTDs with the 6870 on Fallout 3, but no problems with New Vegas. I had some with the 5770 after heavy modding in FO3, but I'm running no mods and it has frozen up or crashed three times within 3 minutes of loading my save. But that's probably an issue for another day.

[pantherx12]

Originally Posted by SkipCameron

I'll run some benchmarks on The Witcher 2 today, but I only started playing that after upgrading my CPU/MoBo/RAM. When my 6870 finally arrived Wednesday I popped it in, updated to the latest drivers, and fired up The Witcher 2 and didn't notice much of a difference. There were still points where it was dropping from a 50+ average into the low 30s-high 20s, the same as with my 5770.

Unfortunately, Fallout 3 and New Vegas are probably my favorite games and so I really want my system to be able to run THEM really well, so a performance boost in Furmark or Supreme Commander doesn't interest me for the money I'm spending.

As for the 60FPS cap, my hope was that even with the cap the 6870 would hold Fallout at a steady 50+ where my 5770 often dropped into the 30s and even 20s (like approaching the US Capitol building battleground where tons of NPCs and particle effects are on screen), but I'm having the same issues with the 6870.

I've also had repeated CTDs with the 6870 on Fallout 3, but no problems with New Vegas. I had some with the 5770 after heavy modding in FO3, but I'm running no mods and it has frozen up or crashed three times within 3 minutes of loading my save. But that's probably an issue for another day.

If it's NPC causing the problems then it probably is the CPU, can you overclock at all?

[SkipCameron]

Originally Posted by CJCerny

OP, I think the main reason that there isn't much visible difference between your old card and your new card is because of the relatively low resolution of your monitor. Faster video cards aren't really that much faster at lower resolutions like you are using. You will likely not notice any significant differences between them unless you run it at higher resolutions. You could also try bumping up the graphic detail, if you have not already. You will likely begin to see the more powerful GPU at work at a lower resolution by doing that. The fact that your new card is benchmarking much faster on Furmark likely means that everything is working just fine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was hoping that upgrading would allow my system to run at my 1440 x 900 at a more consistently high framerate. In other words, if I overpowered my hardware to where it was more than enough given my resolution I should be able to get a consistent 50+ FPS without the dips into the 20s and 30s like I'd been getting with my older system. Does that expectation gel with your reasoning, or should I only expect a performance boost at higher resolutions (which doesn't make sense to me, but as I said, I'm a bit of a hardware noob).

[SkipCameron]

Originally Posted by pantherx12

If it's NPC causing the problems then it probably is the CPU, can you overclock at all?

I have never overclocked anything before, thought I did just start experimenting with manually setting fan speeds yesterday using Afterburner because the 6870 is SO MUCH LOUDER than my silent 5770. I'm a bit nervous about it since I've never done it before but would be willing to give it a shot to determine if it's a processor issue and save myself a bunch of RMA/shipping cost grief. Could you link me to a good CPU overclocking guide?

Also, why would a lot of NPCs be a CPU and not a GPU issue? Is there anywhere I can read up on what game features are handled by the CPU vs GPU? I know that load times, especially with high-res textures are determined a lot by HDD, which is why SSDs are so superior when it comes to load times. But the CPU vs GPU workload breakdown is still a big mystery to me.

[MT Alex]

Originally Posted by Dent1

OK guys, we need to stop blaming his PSU, his CPU, vram and other nonsense. If his performance hasnt improved it's most likely driver related. The 6870 is significantly faster thant he 5770 so much so that he should see an obvious enhancement in performance. TPU shows a 35% difference.


http://tpucdn.com/reviews/HIS/Radeon...es/perfrel.gif

This post makes the most sense, so far.

Did you do a clean install of windows when you upgraded? Are you running the same version of Catalyst as with your 5770, if not, which one? With AMD cards the latest drivers aren't necessarily the greatest for last gen cards.

[pantherx12]

Originally Posted by SkipCameron

I have never overclocked anything before, thought I did just start experimenting with manually setting fan speeds yesterday using Afterburner because the 6870 is SO MUCH LOUDER than my silent 5770. I'm a bit nervous about it since I've never done it before but would be willing to give it a shot to determine if it's a processor issue and save myself a bunch of RMA/shipping cost grief. Could you link me to a good CPU overclocking guide?

Also, why would a lot of NPCs be a CPU and not a GPU issue? Is there anywhere I can read up on what game features are handled by the CPU vs GPU? I know that load times, especially with high-res textures are determined a lot by HDD, which is why SSDs are so superior when it comes to load times. But the CPU vs GPU workload breakdown is still a big mystery to me.

Over-clocking is incredibly easy for small boosts, for example to get to 4ghz on my chip I only need to change two settings in my bios. (4.5ghz required more fiddling )

We could help you with over-clocking you go that route.

Regarding NPCs being a CPU issue, AI is typically ran on the CPU and a lot of games only use a a core or two at best so with a slower processor this will cause the game to slow.
Also fall out uses the CPU to work out the shadows ( stupid way of doing it in these modern times) which causes even more slow downs.

In Skyrim ( it is essentially the same game engine as used in fallout) if I have shadows on very high even with my rig busy areas can go down to 30fps or so from around 58. If it used the graphics card to control the AI and the shadows the game would likely be locked to 60 at all times on my set up.

[D007]

A game that uses a lot of AI uses a lot of CPU. That's the rule of thumb I generally follow and it seems to be fairly accurate so far. Games that Betesda make are generally extremely intensive on using AI.
Me thinks the cpu is making the pc brain fart..

I also think you will notice that gpu u got is better, just mods destroy performance..
Play any other game maxed out and compare the two without adding mods. That would be a fair comparison ^^..
Gl, hope it works out for ya.

[DEFEATEST]

Check out reviews and fps charts on both the specific graphics cards and compare. If they are significantly different, then you know its your system, maybe the cpu. If they are not that different then your not crazy and can make decisions from there.

[Mussels]

skipcameron, learn to edit/multiquote, posting repeatedly like you are is against the forum rules.

[brandonwh64]

Skip can you try this driver for us? I learned last night that the newest drivers make me have FPS tanks and junk. I installed this driver with the help of cadaveca and it works WONDERS!

http://www2.ati.com/drivers/hotfix/c...ws_vista_7.exe

*EDIT*

make sure you use driver sweeper after uninstall of AMD drivers

[ChristTheGreat]

If you have 2 monitor, Put on the other screen: Task manager, GPU-Z... If the CPu runs 100% and GPU low, this is a CPU bottleneck. Also, you will see if the GPu usage is normal.

HD6870 a just a bit slower than a HD5870... http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/H...D_6870/29.html

Remember also, that at a low resolution like 1440x900, which has less pixel than 1280*1024, graphic card will be limited.. do a benchmark @ 1080P, and the difference you will see

[SkipCameron]

Sorry for not using the Multi-Quote and for posting too much (first timer - I should have read the instructions more carefully, D’oh!).

I think the issue is with the Bethesda game engines and their CPU/GPU balance. I've been reading some more thanks to the suggestions of Pantherx12 and D007 about those usages in Fallout/Skyrim and I think that this is what happened: I upgraded my CPU before my GPU but hadn't played Fallout with it yet. When I went to benchmark after getting my new GPU, my old GPU had already received a performance boost from the new CPU and my new GPU was being "bottlenecked" by my CPU. The result is that, for Bethesda games, they are now running comparably due to CPU limitations and my new GPU isn't giving me the boost I'd expected.

I'm going to double check by doing some CPU overclocking (first time!) to see if that gives me any kind of FPS boost in Fallout and then I can maybe look instead at investing in an i5-2500K rather than keeping my 6870 (my 5770 runs everything else great and is much quieter and doesn't require a new PSU, so I can send that back too). Returning the 6870 and PSU will refund me $195 which is less than $30 shy of an i5-2500K, but I might hold off and do some overclocking first. Once I upgrade my monitor I'll start looking into a new GPU to support the higher resolutions.

Thanks everyone for your help!

[RejZoR]

Originally Posted by DannibusX

The monitor you're using probably isn't helping the situation. 1400x900?

Also, the 6870 is the equal line to the 5770 when ATi was finally absorbed by AMD. the X870 performance line was moved to an x970 numbering system.

5770 to 6870
5870 to 6970
5970 to 6990

Sorry but that's a load of BS.

5850 = 6870
5870 = ~6950

5770 is nowhere near in the same league as 5850 or 6870... 5770 is on average slower by 10fps compared to even HD5830, let alone HD5850...

[D007]

Originally Posted by SkipCameron

Sorry for not using the Multi-Quote and for posting too much (first timer - I should have read the instructions more carefully, D’oh!).

I think the issue is with the Bethesda game engines and their CPU/GPU balance. I've been reading some more thanks to the suggestions of Pantherx12 and D007 about those usages in Fallout/Skyrim and I think that this is what happened: I upgraded my CPU before my GPU but hadn't played Fallout with it yet. When I went to benchmark after getting my new GPU, my old GPU had already received a performance boost from the new CPU and my new GPU was being "bottlenecked" by my CPU. The result is that, for Bethesda games, they are now running comparably due to CPU limitations and my new GPU isn't giving me the boost I'd expected.

I'm going to double check by doing some CPU overclocking (first time!) to see if that gives me any kind of FPS boost in Fallout and then I can maybe look instead at investing in an i5-2500K rather than keeping my 6870 (my 5770 runs everything else great and is much quieter and doesn't require a new PSU, so I can send that back too). Returning the 6870 and PSU will refund me $195 which is less than $30 shy of an i5-2500K, but I might hold off and do some overclocking first. Once I upgrade my monitor I'll start looking into a new GPU to support the higher resolutions.

Thanks everyone for your help!

I think you may see a performace boost with overclocking.. Be gentle if you haven't done it before.. Look at guides and just take it easy.
it's no sweat and totally worth if for a moderate OC.
A lot of times you won't even need to raise voltage.

Heat will still go up due to speed going up though. Safe temps on a cpu should not exceed 80c at max load imo.. 80c is like your killing the cpu testing it, absolute worst case scenario to be safe imo..

PS: that wolfdale you have will hit 4 ghz I bet..
3.6 easily and likely with no voltage or minimal voltage increase necessary..

If you are using the i3 though, I can't see it being much of a cpu problem.
Couldn't hurt to give it a bit of a boost though. It should hit 4 ghz as well.

GL

[Jizzler]

An Apevia tip: Periodically check the fan. Unless the quality of those cheap translucent blue fans they use has improved in the last year, they don't have much life to them. You'll want to identify and replace them before the PSU is damaged due to overheating.

In my experience with three Apevia PSUs it's ~6months at 24/7 usage. Replacing them got me another 6 months of use before the PSU completely died

[brandonwh64]

Did you try my suggestion?

Originally Posted by SkipCameron

Sorry for not using the Multi-Quote and for posting too much (first timer - I should have read the instructions more carefully, D’oh!).

I think the issue is with the Bethesda game engines and their CPU/GPU balance. I've been reading some more thanks to the suggestions of Pantherx12 and D007 about those usages in Fallout/Skyrim and I think that this is what happened: I upgraded my CPU before my GPU but hadn't played Fallout with it yet. When I went to benchmark after getting my new GPU, my old GPU had already received a performance boost from the new CPU and my new GPU was being "bottlenecked" by my CPU. The result is that, for Bethesda games, they are now running comparably due to CPU limitations and my new GPU isn't giving me the boost I'd expected.

I'm going to double check by doing some CPU overclocking (first time!) to see if that gives me any kind of FPS boost in Fallout and then I can maybe look instead at investing in an i5-2500K rather than keeping my 6870 (my 5770 runs everything else great and is much quieter and doesn't require a new PSU, so I can send that back too). Returning the 6870 and PSU will refund me $195 which is less than $30 shy of an i5-2500K, but I might hold off and do some overclocking first. Once I upgrade my monitor I'll start looking into a new GPU to support the higher resolutions.

Thanks everyone for your help!

Originally Posted by brandonwh64

Skip can you try this driver for us? I learned last night that the newest drivers make me have FPS tanks and junk. I installed this driver with the help of cadaveca and it works WONDERS!

http://www2.ati.com/drivers/hotfix/c...ws_vista_7.exe

*EDIT*

make sure you use driver sweeper after uninstall of AMD drivers

[SkipCameron]

Originally Posted by brandonwh64

Did you try my suggestion?

I will do that later today when I finish work and have some time to do some more testing. Thanks for the tip and the link! I assume Driver Sweeper is something I can get off of CNET or somewhere; I've never used it before.

[brandonwh64]

http://phyxion.net/Driver-Sweeper/Dr...Installer.html

[SkipCameron]

Originally Posted by brandonwh64

http://phyxion.net/Driver-Sweeper/Dr...Installer.html

Thanks for the link. After doing some more reading I'm wondering if, due to the coding/engine of Fallout 3/NV, it's even possible to keep a consistent 50+ FPS regardless of your hardware. I was checking out your system specs and they certainly trump mine, so I'm wondering if you play any Bethesda games and what kind of FPS rates/consistency you get.

I love your picture, btw. I love me some Coen bros.

[Aquinus]

Originally Posted by purecain

1gb vram is his problem....

What makes you say that? I have two 6870s and vram is usually not a problem. In fact I found that some games slowed down on my Phenom II 940 not because of a CPU, VRam, or Memory size, but rather memory bandwidth (overclocking memory was the only thing that made certains games run faster). I upgraded to an i7 3820 and everything that was choppy before isn't now.

I would install MSI Afterburner and watch the CPU usage per core and GPU usage. I'm willing to bet you that the GPU isn't hitting 100% usage, and if the CPU isn't hitting 100% (or even getting close to 100%,) it's memory.

Also running games as lower resolutions hammer your CPU harder than the GPU, so I'm inclined to believe that your memory speed and CPU are your bottlenecks, not your GPU. One 6870 handled Skyrim at 1920x1200 pretty well on both the Phenom II 940 and the 3820.

Edit: I like how he deleted his post.

[brandonwh64]

Originally Posted by SkipCameron

Thanks for the link. After doing some more reading I'm wondering if, due to the coding/engine of Fallout 3/NV, it's even possible to keep a consistent 50+ FPS regardless of your hardware. I was checking out your system specs and they certainly trump mine, so I'm wondering if you play any Bethesda games and what kind of FPS rates/consistency you get.

I love your picture, btw. I love me some Coen bros.

I have been playing fallout 3 on a 6950 2gb and have no issues alost played with a 5850 no issues

[MatTheCat]

Originally Posted by SkipCameron

I'm hoping someone can explain what I'm missing here. I mean, I almost bought a 6950 and wonder now if I would be in the same situation, or even if I did the 5770 Crossfire.

I am with the CPU bottleneck brigade on this one. A simple way to check where the limitations are being hit is to use a system resource monitoring program. The one I use is AIDA64, and I have that set up to display broad system resource usage stats upon the LCD screen on my keyboard (since you probably dont have an LCD screen on your keyboard you could simply view graphs etc when you stop the game). When i am gaming and dropping frame rates in a game such as Gothic 3, and I see that my CPU resource usage is at 90%+ (across the single core that Gothic 3 relies upon), I know that my performance issues are CPU related. If I am playing BF3, and I start sropping frames when flying over an action packed Sharqi in an attack chopper, and I see that my GPU resources are 99% used, I know that I am GPU tied....

If you monitored your system resources whilst gaming/benching in such a way, then you would have a clear idea of the bottlenecks in your system. That way you wouldnt have to come on here and be met with a great big list of hair brained uninformed diagnosises.

Originally Posted by SkipCameron

Thanks for the link. After doing some more reading I'm wondering if, due to the coding/engine of Fallout 3/NV, it's even possible to keep a consistent 50+ FPS regardless of your hardware. I was checking out your system specs and they certainly trump mine, so I'm wondering if you play any Bethesda games and what kind of FPS rates/consistency you get.

I love your picture, btw. I love me some Coen bros.

With an E8400 @ 3.85Ghz + 5850 OC'd, I could totally max that game out. However, with other Bethesda engine games such as Nehrim, if I turn everything right up to full, I suffer frames in the low 20's, get stuttering issues, despite my system resources being barely used......so as far as Bethesda and unoptimised/sloppy coding is concerned, I certainly wouldnt rule that out.