[PCPER]Frame-rating, what it is, what is does, and why it's important.

cadaveca · Mar 29, 2013

For those that don't want to read, and appreciate video:

Ryan has done a good job, and at the same time, I'd like to point out the cost of the systems used to test and show this, and the huge amount of work involved.

Shows real well how Crossfire is useless right now, FPS be damned, nearly any review showing FPS in Crossfire shows useless numbers, potentially faked, and it's not any reviewer's fault....technically, AMD has been cheating.

Yeah, all of you that spent money on a second card for Crossfire, did it for nothing...really nothing...for now.

And THAT is why AMD is going to fix it.

:roll:

I said a while ago, I give them 4 months...if they don't, I smell a big huge lawsuit, and AMD's demise as a company.

For real. This could kill AMD's graphics division.

Now, the question is..did AMD really know about it? I say yes. Proving that, on the other hand...

radrok · Mar 29, 2013

Man I really hope they get this sorted out, they must.

I've been loyal to ATI for years but seriously it's been nothing short of headaches.

Nordic · Mar 29, 2013

Is it bad if this makes me wonder how cheap amd gpu's will become?

cadaveca · Mar 29, 2013

radrok said:
Man I really hope they get this sorted out, they must.

Ryan said:
the runt frames are every second frame

= real performance = 50% reported FPS = singlecard FPS. Wow, me reporting for years that the second card in Crossfire seemed useless really was true. Go figure. :rolleyes:

I apologize, but I cannot help but feel a bit vindicated here.

Ryan said:
The behavior is present on 50% of titles

Yeah, it's a big issue, and yeah, they'll fix it. I do have faith. Maybe this is why they fired so much of their driver staff.

MxPhenom 216 · Mar 29, 2013

Wow! That was pretty interesting video. Will definitely sit down and read the article as well. Maybe during my flight home on Saturday from Hawaii. Thanks for posting this Dave. AMD needs to get this fixed!

Dillinger · Mar 29, 2013

What a great post, very informative

BiggieShady · Mar 29, 2013

Ah, finally an update! I've been following PCPER articles about frame latencies for some time now ...

Outback Bronze · Mar 29, 2013

I can see they wernt using vsync. I saw screen tearing. Would this make a difference?

Interesting article although im happy playing crysis 3 with my 7950 xfire. I was getting 20fps Vsyncd all maxed and now i get 50/60 coz of new 13.3 beta.

MxPhenom 216 · Mar 29, 2013

Outback Bronze said:
I can see they wernt using vsync. I saw screen tearing. Would this make a difference?

Interesting article although im happy playing crysis 3 with my 7950 xfire. I was getting 20fps Vsyncd all maxed and now i get 50/60 coz of new 13.3 beta.

They said they will have vsync tests in later parts of the article. Should be in a few weeks.

Divide Overflow · Mar 29, 2013

So the extractor program that nVidia helped write shows problems with ATI systems? Well it's not like nVidia software would do something like hamper performance, disable ATI features or anything else like that. Oh wait....

Outback Bronze · Mar 29, 2013

MxPhenom 216 said:
They said they will have vsync tests in later parts of the article. Should be in a few weeks.

Yeah doh

i should have finished watching the entire video. Cheers.

BiggieShady · Mar 29, 2013

Divide Overflow said:
Well it's not like nVidia software would do something like hamper performance, disable ATI features or anything else like that. Oh wait....

That particular software is analyzing video captured data (what gamer sees) and it is not in position to affect anything. As you can see in this image, FRAPS can't get this data because it's a software process operating on a different OS layer (than GPU driver) :

Even if measured at GPU driver level, it would not be as accurate as video capture analysis.

LAN_deRf_HA · Mar 29, 2013

Divide Overflow said:
So the extractor program that nVidia helped write shows problems with ATI systems? Well it's not like nVidia software would do something like hamper performance, disable ATI features or anything else like that. Oh wait....

If you'd been following along you'd know all this tool does is confirm what AMD themselves admitted. Their focus has been on fixing stuttering on single cards first, and they say they'll shift focus to multi gpu in a few months. My guess is to coincide with the reference 7990 launch. I don't think they knew they had these problems before very recently and them prioritizing the more common configurations is to be expected. They'll get there.

BiggieShady · Mar 29, 2013

cadaveca said:
Now, the question is..did AMD really know about it? I say yes. Proving that, on the other hand...

This image proves it for me, it would be hard for AMD driver team to miss all these missed frames

cadaveca · Mar 29, 2013

BiggieShady said:
This image proves it for me, it would be hard for AMD driver team to miss all these missed frames

http://www.pcper.com/files/review/2013-03-25/run.stats__3.png

5760x1080 is the biggest offender, for sure. I've mentioned many times that it is odd that that res with 50% more pixels than 2560x1600 performs better than 2560x1600 does, and not @ 66% of the performance of 2560x1600, as you'd expect.

It is an interesting topic for discussion. I know AMD can fix it. 1000%. only since the 7990 is launching. I mean, it explains why they refused to launch a dual GPU card for so long...they new dual-GPU wasn't working right.

They did the same with the 5970.

They even mentioned that Crossfire and Eyefinity were not supported together with 5-series cards.

I don't think it's as bad as even I have portrayed it.. it's a huge issue, in that it makes me physically ill, and unable to enjoy playing my games when using multi-GPU configurations. In a way, I'm a physical meat and bone representation of Ryan's fancy software and hardware.

Be that as it may, I am now more interested in the why, the when, and not much else. Fixing it isn't a big deal, really. I mean, I fix it daily...by not using my 2nd, third, and fourth GPUs.

:banghead:

The real unfortunate part is the cost in testing such things is still prohibitive for nearly everyone. SSD Raid 0, TB's of data, Thunderbolt...multiple GPUs...oh look, thing's I've put on my shopping list for W1zz to get me in the past that I ended up buying myself. :roll:

Oh well.

OH, and Happy Easter, everyone! Look at the shit the bunny left behind!

:roll:

Rowsol · Mar 29, 2013

Fascinating.

cadaveca · Mar 29, 2013

Rowsol said:
Fascinating.

Meh. Most people seem to not care.

the54thvoid · Mar 29, 2013

cadaveca said:
Meh. Most people seem to not care.

I think it's because this is definitely an area where logical arguments win and juvenile brand loyal sabre rattling is pointless. I posted a link to an Anandtech article (in another thread) that also looked at the issue that coincided with an AMD conference call. Amd have hand on heart admitted it all and that they were relying on a tool for the FPS numbers. While Nvidia started a few years back trying to argue for other measuring tools.

It's pretty black and white. The usual 'fan'atic posters wont come here.

tokyoduong · Mar 29, 2013

and there's people here that will swear up and down that they never have problems with CF lol.

Just the slight microstutter CF produce alone already gives me headaches. I know others don't experience it but I do. I really hope they fix this soon because it doesn't look like a hard fix.

Xzibit · Mar 29, 2013

Atleast PCPerspective got AMD and Nvidia to agree on something.

That this isnt a good way to measure frame latency. :laugh:

tokyoduong · Mar 29, 2013

cadaveca said:
Meh. Most people seem to not care.

I do and hence why I don't own any CF systems. I always felt weird using CF since the 2k series running 2850. That's not even accounting all the bugs associated with it. It always gives me headaches and makes me not want to play games. Any gaming past an hour starts becoming torturous. I always thought it was probably just my eyes being weird so i avoid it and didn't complain.

I've set up many CF systems for many people and it works like it should. Testing it was always a pain for me. Most people didn't think the microstutter was a big deal and didn't bother them. So to each his own but this new discovery just makes my view about CF/SLI just a little stronger. It is just too many problems to deal with. I would rather just update my card more often than double up the GPU.

BTW i don't think this will kill their graphics division. There's very few people that actually do CF. As long as they fix it in time then it shouldn't be much of a problem. Worst case, they send everyone a $50 check that can prove they bought CF set up.

DRDNA · Mar 29, 2013

Well this is really good news as things will get better and performance will increase and we will be happy!

Sasqui · Mar 29, 2013

cadaveca said:
Meh. Most people seem to not care.

Certainly those with 7xxx CrossFire must.

If all that analysis is correct, I think you're spot on about the 7990 delays.

DRDNA · Mar 29, 2013

Sasqui said:
Certainly those with 7xxx CrossFire must.

If all that analysis is correct, I think you're spot on about the 7990 delays.

Can you speculate how long this issue has been going on? Is it all the way back to the X800 days?

Xzibit · Mar 29, 2013

The only real issue i have with this is Ryan has gone on record saying Nvidia wrote the overlay for the frame-grabbing for there software which is also nvidias.

So it throws a wrench into the testing..

It would have been better if a 3rd-party would be the one writing the software to grab the frames.

They way they are grabbed after the renderer could benefit or cater specific to nvidia since they wrote it.

Processor	8700k Intel
Motherboard	z370 MSI Godlike Gaming
Cooling	Triple Aquacomputer AMS Copper 840 with D5
Memory	TridentZ RGB G.Skill C16 3600MHz
Video Card(s)	GTX 1080 Ti
Storage	Crucial MX SSDs
Display(s)	Dell U3011 2560x1600 + Dell 2408WFP 1200x1920 (Portrait)
Case	Core P5 Thermaltake
Audio Device(s)	Essence STX
Power Supply	AX 1500i
Mouse	Logitech
Keyboard	Corsair
Software	Win10

Processor	7800x3d
Motherboard	Gigabyte B650 Auros Elite AX
Cooling	Custom Water
Memory	GSKILL 2x16gb 6000mhz Cas 30 with custom timings
Video Card(s)	MSI RX 6750 XT MECH 2X 12G OC
Storage	Adata SX8200 1tb with Windows, Samsung 990 Pro 2tb with games
Display(s)	HP Omen 27q QHD 165hz
Case	ThermalTake P3
Power Supply	SuperFlower Leadex Titanium
Software	Windows 11 64 Bit
Benchmark Scores	CB23: 1811 / 19424 CB24: 1136 / 7687

System Name	Ryzen Reflection
Processor	AMD Ryzen 9 5900x
Motherboard	Gigabyte X570S Aorus Master
Cooling	2x EK PE360 \| TechN AM4 AMD Block Black \| EK Quantum Vector Trinity GPU Nickel + Plexi
Memory	Teamgroup T-Force Xtreem 2x16GB B-Die 3600 @ 14-14-14-28-42-288-2T 1.45v
Video Card(s)	Zotac AMP HoloBlack RTX 3080Ti 12G \| 950mV 1950Mhz
Storage	WD SN850 500GB (OS) \| Samsung 980 Pro 1TB (Games_1) \| Samsung 970 Evo 1TB (Games_2)
Display(s)	Asus XG27AQM 240Hz G-Sync Fast-IPS \| Gigabyte M27Q-P 165Hz 1440P IPS \| Asus 24" IPS (portrait mode)
Case	Lian Li PC-011D XL \| Custom cables by Cablemodz
Audio Device(s)	FiiO K7 \| Sennheiser HD650 + Beyerdynamic FOX Mic
Power Supply	Seasonic Prime Ultra Platinum 850
Mouse	Razer Viper v2 Pro
Keyboard	Razer Huntsman Tournament Edition
Software	Windows 11 Pro 64-Bit

System Name	N/A
Processor	Intel® Core™ i7-4790K CPU @ 4.00GHz
Motherboard	GIGABYTE Z87X-D3H 64 BIT
Cooling	CORSAIR H50 HYDRO SERIES
Memory	PNY 32 GIGS
Video Card(s)	Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 Founders Edition
Storage	Samsung 850 EVO 250GB 2.5-Inch SATA III Internal SSD
Display(s)	Acer Predator / INSIGNIA 55 INCH
Case	Thermaltake Overseer RX-1 Full Tower Case
Audio Device(s)	SOUNDMAX
Power Supply	650 W.
Mouse	Mad Catz R.A.T.5 Gaming Mouse
Keyboard	Keychron K8 Mechanical Gaming Keyboard
Software	WINDOWS 10 Pro

System Name	Windows 10 64-bit Core i7 6700
Processor	Intel Core i7 6700
Motherboard	Asus Z170M-PLUS
Cooling	Corsair AIO
Memory	2 x 8 GB Kingston DDR4 2666
Video Card(s)	Gigabyte NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB
Storage	Western Digital Caviar Blue 1 TB, Seagate Baracuda 1 TB
Display(s)	Dell P2414H
Case	Corsair Carbide Air 540
Audio Device(s)	Realtek HD Audio
Power Supply	Corsair TX v2 650W
Mouse	Steelseries Sensei
Keyboard	CM Storm Quickfire Pro, Cherry MX Reds
Software	MS Windows 10 Pro 64-bit

[PCPER]Frame-rating, what it is, what is does, and why it's important.

cadaveca

My name is Dave

radrok

Nordic

cadaveca

My name is Dave

MxPhenom 216

ASIC Engineer

Dillinger

BiggieShady

Outback Bronze

Moderator

MxPhenom 216

ASIC Engineer

Divide Overflow

Outback Bronze

Moderator

BiggieShady

LAN_deRf_HA

BiggieShady

cadaveca

My name is Dave

Rowsol

cadaveca

My name is Dave

the54thvoid

Intoxicated Moderator

tokyoduong

Xzibit

tokyoduong

DRDNA

Sasqui

DRDNA

Xzibit

System Name	Raptor Baked
Processor	14900k w.c.
Motherboard	Z790 Hero
Cooling	w.c.
Memory	32GB Hynix
Video Card(s)	Zotac 4080 w.c.
Storage	2TB Kingston kc3k
Display(s)	Gigabyte 34" Curved
Case	Corsair 460X
Audio Device(s)	Onboard
Power Supply	PCIe5 850w
Mouse	Asus
Keyboard	Corsair
Software	Win 11
Benchmark Scores	Cool n Quiet.

Processor	Ryzen 9 5900X
Motherboard	Gigabyte X570 Aorus Master
Cooling	ARCTIC Liquid Freezer II 360 A-RGB
Memory	32 GB Ballistix Elite DDR4-3600 CL16
Video Card(s)	XFX 6800 XT Speedster Merc 319 Black
Storage	Sabrent Rocket NVMe 4.0 1TB
Display(s)	LG 27GL850B x 2 / ASUS MG278Q
Case	be quiet! Silent Base 802
Audio Device(s)	Sound Blaster AE-7 / Sennheiser HD 660S
Power Supply	Seasonic Prime 750W Titanium
Software	Windows 11 Pro 64

System Name	Obelisc
Processor	i7 3770k @ 4.8 GHz
Motherboard	Asus P8Z77-V
Cooling	H110
Memory	16GB(4x4) @ 2400 MHz 9-11-11-31
Video Card(s)	GTX 780 Ti
Storage	850 EVO 1TB, 2x 5TB Toshiba
Case	T81
Audio Device(s)	X-Fi Titanium HD
Power Supply	EVGA 850 T2 80+ TITANIUM
Software	Win10 64bit

System Name	Better than before
Processor	10400
Motherboard	B460 Pro4
Cooling	Id-Cooling 224
Memory	16 GB
Video Card(s)	1650 Super
Storage	Swordfish 500 GB
Display(s)	AOC G2
Case	Coolermaster Ammo 533
Audio Device(s)	Micca MB42X
Power Supply	Pure Power 11
Mouse	G403
Keyboard	Sidewinder x4
Software	Windows 10 (ugh)

Processor	Ryzen 7800X3D
Motherboard	MSI MAG Mortar B650 (wifi)
Cooling	be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4
Memory	32GB Kingston Fury
Video Card(s)	Gainward RTX4070ti
Storage	Seagate FireCuda 530 M.2 1TB / Samsumg 960 Pro M.2 512Gb
Display(s)	LG 32" 165Hz 1440p GSYNC
Case	Asus Prime AP201
Audio Device(s)	On Board
Power Supply	be quiet! Pure POwer M12 850w Gold (ATX3.0)
Software	W10

System Name	Desktop
Processor	i5 3570k
Motherboard	Asrock Z77
Cooling	Corsair H60
Memory	G Skill 8gb 1600 mhz X 2
Video Card(s)	Sapphire Radeon 7850 X 2
Storage	1 TB Velociraptor, 240GB 840 Samsung
Display(s)	27" Samsung LED X 2
Case	Thermaltake V9
Power Supply	Seasonic 620 W, CX600M on stand by
Software	Win 8.1 64
Benchmark Scores	Benches are silly

Processor	INTEL CORE I9-9900K @ 5Ghz all core 4.7Ghz Cache @1.305 volts
Motherboard	ASUS PRIME Z390-P ATX
Cooling	CORSAIR HYDRO H150I PRO RGB 360MM 6x120mm fans push pull
Memory	CRUCIAL BALLISTIX 3000Mhz 4x8 32gb @ 4000Mhz
Video Card(s)	EVGA GEFORECE RTX 2080 SUPER XC HYBRID GAMING
Storage	ADATA XPG SX8200 Pro 1TB 3D NAND NVMe,Intel 660p 1TB m.2 ,1TB WD Blue 3D NAND,500GB WD Blue 3D NAND,
Display(s)	50" Sharp Roku TV 8ms responce time and Philips 75Hz 328E9QJAB 32" curved
Case	BLACK LIAN LI O11 DYNAMIC XL FULL-TOWER GAMING CASE,
Power Supply	1600 Watt
Software	Windows 10

System Name	Senile
Processor	I7-4790K@4.8 GHz 24/7
Motherboard	MSI Z97-G45 Gaming
Cooling	Be Quiet Pure Rock Air
Memory	16GB 4x4 G.Skill CAS9 2133 Sniper
Video Card(s)	GIGABYTE Vega 64
Storage	Samsung EVO 500GB / 8 Different WDs / QNAP TS-253 8GB NAS with 2x10Tb WD Blue
Display(s)	34" LG 34CB88-P 21:9 Curved UltraWide QHD (34401440) FREE_SYNC*
Case	Rosewill
Audio Device(s)	Onboard + HD HDMI
Power Supply	Corsair HX750
Mouse	Logitech G5
Keyboard	Corsair Strafe RGB & G610 Orion Red
Software	Win 10