why do video cards cost more than the whole computer?

[HeavyH20]

The reality is that it takes almost no skill to OC these days for any CPU, unless you are volt modding and such. Throw some decent cooling on there, and it is very easy. Tweaking the OC does, however, take a little more skill. Balance the memory timings, bus speeds, HT, etc. It is just as hard to get a Intel 4340 to 3.6 GHz as it is to get a Intel E6700 to 4.2, but the higher end CPU wins, again. A $100 CPU does not match a more expensive one. FSB limits with low multis come into play. I have done my share of testing, and the bargain CPU's never keep up with the higher end. But, if you need to save money, it makes sense to buy the best you can and OC it to a better clock.

And, it's high time to throw the 3700+ away, anyway.

[keakar]

Originally Posted by Mussels

Oh i dunno, i find it hard to play a game without the peripherals. EVERYTHING is part of the computer, even down to the desk i use. THAT is where you have gone wrong.

well by your logic you have to include the price of your house or the cost to rent your apartment, because you need the electricity to run your computer lol.

then add in your broad band bill and wireless networking, oh dont forget food cause you have to eat, then your all set!

[Wile E]

Originally Posted by keakar

you dont see ford selling cars for $120,000 just because they spend a lot of $ on research.

Ummm, The Ford GT.

Originally Posted by Dippyskoodlez

Thats the type of thinking that got everyone in to this terrible position.

We used to be able to buy a $40 1700+ and hit 2.2-2.5Ghz.

The smart people can do similar with lower end CPU's.


Buying high end parts for overclocking just 100% eliminates any skill required these days.

My 3700+ does 3Ghz.

$70 CPU.

Why spend $400?

His point still stands. My 6000+ does 3.4GHz, and way out does any of the cpu's you mentioned. Sure, I paid more for it, but I'm also still faster.

And it still takes skill to OC a QX6 series over 4Ghz. You don't see many Q6600 or Q6700 going above 4Ghz. You also don't see people setting records with the Q66 or 67s. They all use QX series chips.

And above all, you are not taking the overall economy of the world into your arguments about pricing vs older hardware. EVERYTHING is more expensive now, not just computer parts. But we also make more money now, thus offsetting the difference. My first job paid me $4/hr. Now the minimum wage in my state is what, $7.15/hr.

Just a few years ago, I couldn't afford $400 gfx cards, because that would've been equivalent to buying an 8800 Ultra by today's standards.

[Mussels]

Originally Posted by Dippyskoodlez

Thats barely over $1k... for everything BUT the GPU...

yet the GPU is almost $1k in itself..


try rethinking that one?

I made a second post with the rest of the parts listed, and full prices. That first one was brief, and people made the same comments you did.

Originally Posted by Dippyskoodlez

Because peripherlas need recycled every upgrade

My G15 should last me a good 9-10 years. My G7 probably until the battery packs cease holding charges. My LCD until a 2000x2000 res lcd comes out most likely. Failure of these objects to remain useful for a legitimate lifespan will make it quite a waste of money. These should only be factored into a computer once... If you have to upgrade every time, you didn't buy the right part in the first place! My MX310 lasted me 5 years, until i wore the button out.

Thats what i mean - WE recycle parts, not everyone does. I'm talking 'total cost of a computer' - if your keyboard lasts you through three rebuilds, feel free to average it to 1/3 the original cost of the keyboard. You cant knock it off like it was free, however.
The average user definitely buys all new parts (store bought systems) even if they get it custom built, so that the old PC remains in working order.

Originally Posted by Dippyskoodlez

Thats the type of thinking that got everyone in to this terrible position.

We used to be able to buy a $40 1700+ and hit 2.2-2.5Ghz.

The smart people can do similar with lower end CPU's.


Buying high end parts for overclocking just 100% eliminates any skill required these days.

My 3700+ does 3Ghz.

$70 CPU.

Why spend $400?

I spent $400 on a quad Q6600 2.4GHz and plan to do 3.2-3.6GHz on it, before those even exist in the retail market OCing depends on the mobo more than anything these days, as just about every CPU will overclock.

[Dippyskoodlez]

Originally Posted by Wile E

And it still takes skill to OC a QX6 series over 4Ghz. You don't see many Q6600 or Q6700 going above 4Ghz. You also don't see people setting records with the Q66 or 67s. They all use QX series chips.

You people don't get it.

Paying for the upper grade worsens the problem.

The 1700+'s did AMAZING because the volume moved with the low end (1700+'s) was SIGNIGIFICANTLY higher than the high end product...

Once you move the volume to the high end product, they make out like bandits and you see the problem we have now- buying higher binned cpu's for an extra 200 Mhz.


People justifying buying the higher cpu for that extra 200mhz is what screws you all.

Overclocking started as a way to get more for your money.

Now its evolving because people are freaks about 2fps, and turning it into the market because they're willing to bend over.

I never have and never will.

Long live the overclocking dream!

[Pinchy]

Originally Posted by HeavyH20

Taking cheap parts and OCing them is a value way to reach a high end system. Understood. But, if you OC the high end parts, they will out do any of the bargain items. I have been there. Use an AMD X2 3800+, clock it up to 2.6 GHz, and you have an FX-62. Makes sense, somewhat. Most people with the FX-62 will also OC their CPU, since it is an enthusiast chip, so the X2 3800+ does not really come close to emulating the faster chip.

Lmao, I know that; I was simply interpreting Hat's logic.

Which was:

Computer techie: Buys E6400 for $200, OC's it to 3Ghz.
Computer n00b with lots of money: Buys E6800 for $1000, leaves it at stock cus he doenst know what "OC" is.


Overall, they are getting the same performance, with the techie paying $800 less. Sure the n00b could overclock it, but in this situation, he doesnt know how to.

[HeavyH20]

Well, most noobs do not buy the $1000 CPU. Even with lots of money. That's my point. They buy the mid point CPU already in a system, like an E6850 for $300 and run it at the stock 3.0 GHz. And, in doing so, with no tweaking whatsoever, they have a system that performs as fast with stock cooling as the lower end OC'd CPU with better cooling. Simply stated, instead of buying watercooling, get a better CPU. And, besides, noobs do not buy the high end Extreme CPU's, enthusiasts do.

And, the E6850 for $100 more is a much better buy than the E6400. It can OC to 4.0 GHz with decent cooling. My take is that a $300 CPU is the sweet spot for value and OC headroom. Anything lower is a compromise. And, if you are into hardware as a hobby, the Extreme CPU's are the only way to go, period.

[Pinchy]

Originally Posted by HeavyH20

Well, most noobs do not buy the $1000 CPU.

You'd be suprised. (Dont know about the states) But here in Aus, ive seen many occurances where they generally just want the best they can get. It all depends on who builds it for them. (Smart techie gives E6850, dumb techie gives E6800).


I've seen many people who barely know how to use MS word, yet own an enthusiast computer. My dentist is one such example.

Anyway, this is getting waay off topic. Sorry for threadjacking .

[keakar]

Originally Posted by Dippyskoodlez

You people don't get it.

Paying for the upper grade worsens the problem.

The 1700+'s did AMAZING because the volume moved with the low end (1700+'s) was SIGNIGIFICANTLY higher than the high end product...

Once you move the volume to the high end product, they make out like bandits and you see the problem we have now- buying higher binned cpu's for an extra 200 Mhz.


People justifying buying the higher cpu for that extra 200mhz is what screws you all.

Overclocking started as a way to get more for your money.

Now its evolving because people are freaks about 2fps, and turning it into the market because they're willing to bend over.

I never have and never will.

Long live the overclocking dream!

thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you

for clarifying the message i wished to convey in the original post.

your comment was much clearer and to the very point that i wished to make.

the numerous posts trying to justify why its ok to be paying so much just amazed me.

people buy overpriced things all the time but that doesnt mean its ok.

the way supply and demand system works is you keep raising prices untill the idiots stop buying your product, then you lower the price a tiny bit and rake in the $$$$$$$.

the way supply and demand system also works is if you stop buying the new overpriced products, then they will lower the price untill they start selling a lot more of them. (Q6600)

just because you didnt mind paying too much $ for something doesnt mean you should.

[Mussels]

So... your point is that we should all stop buying, and live in a communist world were we all get free hardware?

People with more money get better (stock) hardware, people with experience OC the hardware, and people with both buy the best value at the time.


You are somewhat unclear what your point is meant to be - dippys comments are true that the lower-mid range hardware sells more, thats true. doesnt mean that they arent going to sell higher clocked ones for more, some people want/need that performance, so the manufs spend more time and effort getting it to happen, and want more money for it.

Its not like every video card is made as a GTX at teh factory, and trimmed down to sell for less. The ones that make the grade are few and far between, and have to be spread across the globe - that means they have less per region and sell it for more, to stop it selling out on the spot and only one area (northern USA, taiwan) getting ALL of them.

Dippy and i always disagree on things, its just the way we are - but i'm still not entirely sure what the point here is, i'm arguing that the video cards do not cost more than a PC, unless you have a screwed up build design - your argument is... supply and demand sucks? people are stupid for buying imbalanced systems?

[HeavyH20]

Buying so called "overpriced" items does not change the market. The fact remains that you get way more system for $2500 today than ever. GPU's have evolved faster than the CPU over the past few years pushed along by ever more demanding graphics capabilities. Ten years ago, in 1996, someone postulated that $2500 bought you the best value PC and that would continue on, even with inflation. That same $2500 in 1996 is really worth $3300 today, but, since electronic prices have been flat or declining for the last 10 years, the same $2500 actually gets you a somewhat high end PC. Today, we have similar valued systems selling today for only $600. Talk about a cost reduction.

Even the high end has dropped. An 8 MB VRAM Diamond Viper was $895 (about $1200 in today's dollars). So, $600 for a high end card today represents a significant drop. You will always get more for your dollar as each and every year passes buy. That is the domain of electronics. And, those companies are making less and less margin, not more.

And, welcome to capatilism. What you consider overpriced, can also be considered a bargain to someone else. What would you buy if you made $200,000 per year versus an average US household income of $50,000? The only reason the Q6600 came down in price was that is went from a 2nd tier product to a fourth tier. It simply was moved down the ladder while a couple of other products are simply dropped. Today's fastest is tomorrow's bargain, if you wait long enough. What does an FX-55 cost today? Probably couldn't give it away yet it was $1000 in its day.

[niko084]

Originally Posted by HAL7000

Mussels, I couldn't agree with you more, here is the price I speced out for a client, they wanted a high end system taylored to their liking...


$39.99 LITE-ON 20X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model LH-20A1L-06 - Retail

$399.99 ZALMAN Z-MACHINE GT1000-B Black Aluminum ATX Mid Tower High End Computer Case - Retail

($194.99 each) total of 2- $389.98 Western Digital Raptor WD1500ADFD 150GB 10,000 RPM Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - OEM

$499.99 SAMSUNG 245BW Black high glossy 24" 5ms DVI Widescreen LCD Monitor with Height Adjustment - Retail

$569.99 ASUS EN8800GTX/HTDP/768M GeForce 8800GTX 768MB 384-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail
$145.99 Creative 70SB046A00000 7.1 Channels PCI Interface Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer Fatal1ty Professional Series - Retail

$579.99 PC Power & Cooling Turbo-Cool 1KW-SR EPS12V 1000W Continuous @ 50°C Power Supply - Retail
$71.99 Logitech G15 Gaming Keyboard - Retail
$45.99 Logitech G5 2-Tone 6 Buttons 1 x Wheel USB Wired Laser Mouse - Retail
$460.99 OCZ Platinum 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model OCZ3P13332GK - Retail
$246.99 ASUS P5K3 DELUXE/WIFI-AP LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

$329.99 Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 Conroe 3.0GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80557E6850 - Retail
$68.99 ASUS 90-PN531CE-00100 92mm Sleeve Silent Knight CPU Cooler - Retail
$224.00 Bose Companion 3 Series II Multimedia Speaker System Computer Speakers

Subtotal: $4099.85 plus tax

So Keakar to think that a VC is more than a system really depends on your system.

Not bad yet destroyed by a pile of crap DVD drive....

Get a Plextor
Also if you are going to buy a 7.1 sound card, may as well get 7.1 speakers!?!?

[Mussels]

Originally Posted by niko084

Not bad yet destroyed by a pile of crap DVD drive....

Get a Plextor
Also if you are going to buy a 7.1 sound card, may as well get 7.1 speakers!?!?

while a nice DVD drive is a good thing, for most gamers its barely used. If it can install the game, and read from it for pesky CD checks, its good enough for most users.

Of course, we could start buying BD-ROM drives and complain they cost more than the video cards...

oh and sound card i dont think matters too much, he could have got it for the EAX performance/sound benefits to 2.0/headphones, surround sound wouldnt be why it was purchased.

[Dippyskoodlez]

Originally Posted by Mussels

some people want/need that performance, so the manufs spend more time and effort getting it to happen, and want more money for it.

"want" that performance is the problem in question.

The A64 3200+ overclocked like a mofo. People were doing 3+ghz with it all the time. No one bought the high end one because the lowers could do just fine.

Now everyones so scared to overclock, they buy high end stuff to make their e-peen bigger because they got an extra 100mhz for $300.

When you move the volume from 3200+ end to the 3800+ end of the product, you change the way you bin product.

You stop binning perfectly good 3800+'s in the 3200+ bin.

Overclocked start bending over for the 3800+ price.

See the point?

So... your point is that we should all stop buying, and live in a communist world were we all get free hardware?

Are you a republican, or do you like throwing money away? or both? You're obviously scared of a little communism, stop watching faux news. Unlike gullible single moms, I know communism won't be taking over this country by a changing technology market.

Its not like every video card is made as a GTX at teh factory, and trimmed down to sell for less. The ones that make the grade are few and far between, and have to be spread across the globe - that means they have less per region and sell it for more, to stop it selling out on the spot and only one area (northern USA, taiwan) getting ALL of them.

Guess what? The geforce 4's were like this. The Geforce FX's were like this. The entire 9x00 radeon series did this.

IT HASN'T CHANGED.

Originally Posted by HeavyH20

And, welcome to capatilism. What you consider overpriced, can also be considered a bargain to someone else. What would you buy if you made $200,000 per year versus an average US household income of $50,000? The only reason the Q6600 came down in price was that is went from a 2nd tier product to a fourth tier. It simply was moved down the ladder while a couple of other products are simply dropped. Today's fastest is tomorrow's bargain, if you wait long enough. What does an FX-55 cost today? Probably couldn't give it away yet it was $1000 in its day.

How much was the fastest CPU on the table before the A64 came into the picture?


Thought so.

You proved my point exactly. If people are dumb enough to pay it, they'll sell it to you.

[HAL7000]

Originally Posted by niko084

Not bad yet destroyed by a pile of crap DVD drive....

Get a Plextor
Also if you are going to buy a 7.1 sound card, may as well get 7.1 speakers!?!?

They wanted to wait to invest either for HD or BR drive, until then the Lite-On suited them fine.as for the speakers, you can't get any better IMO, but i tried to talk them out of the sound card but they wanted it.

Give em what they want, its money in my pocket, argue I loose the $$.

Besides Lite-On has never failed a client nor me and besides they read everything I throw at them
Bose have a really great sound.
My wife and daughter both use these speakers and me, well I am using creature 2 by JBL.

[HAL7000]

Originally Posted by Mussels

while a nice DVD drive is a good thing, for most gamers its barely used. If it can install the game, and read from it for pesky CD checks, its good enough for most users.

Of course, we could start buying BD-ROM drives and complain they cost more than the video cards...

oh and sound card i dont think matters too much, he could have got it for the EAX performance/sound benefits to 2.0/headphones, surround sound wouldnt be why it was purchased.

Your right again, thanks

[Wile E]

Originally Posted by Dippyskoodlez

"want" that performance is the problem in question.

The A64 3200+ overclocked like a mofo. People were doing 3+ghz with it all the time. No one bought the high end one because the lowers could do just fine.

Now everyones so scared to overclock, they buy high end stuff to make their e-peen bigger because they got an extra 100mhz for $300.

When you move the volume from 3200+ end to the 3800+ end of the product, you change the way you bin product.

You stop binning perfectly good 3800+'s in the 3200+ bin.

Overclocked start bending over for the 3800+ price.

See the point?



Are you a republican, or do you like throwing money away? or both? You're obviously scared of a little communism, stop watching faux news. Unlike gullible single moms, I know communism won't be taking over this country by a changing technology market.






Guess what? The geforce 4's were like this. The Geforce FX's were like this. The entire 9x00 radeon series did this.

IT HASN'T CHANGED.







How much was the fastest CPU on the table before the A64 came into the picture?


Thought so.

You proved my point exactly. If people are dumb enough to pay it, they'll sell it to you.

How is it throwing money away, when the high end parts go further than the low end parts? If I could afford a QX and a couple of Ultras, I would have them. Then I would overclock them, and still beat up the overclocked lower end parts.

People are willing to pay the prices, so the companies charge them. It's called capitalism. It's my money to spend, and I'll spend it how I see fit. How is my own personal choice wrong? It's my choice.

And yes, it makes more sense to buy a lower end part if all you want to do is overclock and match or slightly exceed the high end parts. But if you want untouchable power, overclocking the high end is the only place to look.

It's great that you are happy with the power provided by overclocking the lower end parts, but that's not what everyone wants.

[HAL7000]

Some need to buy cheaper because of their pocket book, some can buy the best because they can afford to, But to say that that someone is throwing money away or that those buying the best are misguided is a weak and misguided argument at the least.

Next time you are doing groceries, you need to buy the no name labels for every food item, next time you are gassing your car, you need to go to the least known brand and get the cheapest gas, next time you need sneakers you need to buy those awful plastic vinyl ones, next time you buy a car, you need to go and get the Yugo. Thing is we buy what we really want or what we can afford. (And if we can’t afford it we put it on credit)

I agree prices are insane but the roles have changed, remember when CPU’s were just outrageous in price, now video cards have caught up for ….THE upper middle and the HIGH END. It doesn’t take a scientist to figure what is the high end, and we all want that as much as we can afford it. For those that can’t well, maybe next time.

Development and Production + demand = cost

Why do video cards cost more than the whole computer….they don’t. It is your taste that cost more; it’s your bragging rights. It’s what we want to put under the hood.

So everyone is right in there own ways.

Why not start a forum dealing with this…NVIDIA and AMD/ATI… WE will stop buying your products until you lower your prices. And those that leave a message of support need to not buy that upgrade. They need to sacrifice and stop buying. This will lower prices.
But in reality, sacrifice is one of the hardest things to do and maintain for a long enough period of time to affect the market.

I know that video cards do not cost more than a system. If we want to play our games, and see all that eye candy, run our demanding programs well TODAY, we need a VC that will run what we want to see. We reach in our pockets, (in my circumstances…my wife’s pockets) and buy what we can. Because what we want cost more than we are willing to spend or have doesn’t make this original post correct.
How about developing a VC that is programmable in real time and that can be upgraded and not replaced? This way we can eventually have what we want without replacing …the hundredth VC, (now that pisses me off). Spend money today, technology changes tomorrow, spend more money the day after. Build me a VC that I can upgrade the GPU and memory.

[Dippyskoodlez]

Originally Posted by Wile E

How is it throwing money away, when the high end parts go further than the low end parts? If I could afford a QX and a couple of Ultras, I would have them. Then I would overclock them, and still beat up the overclocked lower end parts.

It's great that you are happy with the power provided by overclocking the lower end parts, but that's not what everyone wants.

$400CPU

300Mhz


$200cpu

-300mhz


I'll still frag your ass with 300 less mhz

[HAL7000]

Originally Posted by Dippyskoodlez

$400CPU

300Mhz


$200cpu

-300mhz


I'll still frag your ass with 300 less mhz

I understand and agree with your overall assessment about value.

But there are those that do not overclock nor want to place there investment in harms way......Somebody smell burning transistors???? So they buy the best.
But others like to push and get all they can out of the least amount spent.

But overall this does not answer the higher cost we all suffer with. Both market shares look towards bargins and wait for just the right time to buy. Its the Giants of capitalism that control what we spend. They set the P$R$I$C$E$

[Dippyskoodlez]

Originally Posted by HAL7000

But there are those that do not overclock nor want to place there investment in harms way......Somebody smell burning transistors????

Learn to overclock properly instead of playing pin the tail on the donkey and you won't kill anything.

I've not yet killed anything from overclocking.(And my overclocks are far from mild. 3Ghz air cooled AXP anyone?)

If anything, buying the "best" is throwing even more money in harms way. If you have to buy the best to get that few epeen mhz, and you kill it because you don't know what you're doing you've just lost a crap ton more money.

[HAL7000]

Not everyone is a overclock master....there are still young jedi's coming to the overclock side of the force.....

People that want the best and do not want to overclock, most likely have someone else build their system....or know what they are doing.

[Dippyskoodlez]

Originally Posted by HAL7000

Not everyone is a overclock master....there are still young jedi's coming to the overclock side of the force.....

So its a mix of overclocker with n00b kid that doesn't know what he's doing?

People can call me a cheap ass for getting my moneys worth by buying lower end parts and overclocking them...

and then call my mac a waste of money...


It just never ends


So apparently the best of the best is suddenly worth money, but NOT worth money?

[cdawall]

look at my rig everything in it in total cost less then $200 yet before conroe it was a solid midrange to low highend machine

@wile e
would i spend the money to get a 2.6ghz 4000+ for s754 NOPE my $20 3000+ does close enough to that on stock cooling and could go much higher if someone sent me a nforce3 mobo all this and now i have a 3400+ i spent $40 on from AX2 that will easily do 2.64ghz with out throwing my bus speeds outta wack giving me once again a midrange gaming PC

@HAL7000
also what of mine is in harms way i have run 1.8v thru stock cooling my newcastle did not die harms way my ass ppl are so used to thinking they can not run voltage thru todays chips cause of what they read in online articles by ppl who have never owned the chips they talk about

for dippy
if i can find a 7900GS agp BIOS i will have a 24/8 card and i already can flash mine to 1.5vgpu giving me the ability to as soon as i unlock 8pp/2ROPS overclock to full 7900GTX all this on an ancient agp set up i can have good performance with old cheap tech.

when i had my ti4200 64mb i was running with better frames than ti4600s and ti4800s performance even when the ti4600s were run overclocked

alos got an FX 5700 that out does the rest of the lineup overclocked it can get a 500mhz core and 710mhz ram on stock cooling







none of thes cards look supercooled or anything do they?

[JrRacinFan]

Oh my! What is with all the flame wars!?

We all have one thing in common in this forum and thats ....

RIG BUILDING! Which we all love and cherish! Hey some peeps just wanna spend, others rather OC to see how far they can push that $50 proc **ehemmm**. I know I won't be setting world records.

I only have one question for everyone; Is this a hobby or a chore?

EDIT: Exactly my point CDAwall, max I paid for a part in my rig was $65 and that was for the 7600GS! And this I would consider as mid-range machine I could get! OMFG, I still got my GF4 Ti4200 64MB in my old P3 Dell machine!