NVIDIA and AMD Vie with Intel Over USB 3.0

malware · Jun 7, 2008, 07:41 PM

First-tier makers NVIDIA and AMD are dissatisfied with Intel's ownership of the USB 3.0 specification, CNET reported yesterday. The next-generation high-speed USB 3.0 specification is aiming to become standard in 2009. It will be 10 times faster than USB 2.0 and at the same time as widespread as the current USB 2.0. The USB 3.0 will also retain full compatibility with USB 2.0 and presumably USB 1.0. The main investitors behind the USB 3.0 specs include Intel as well as Microsoft, Hewlett-Packard, Texas Instruments, NEC, and NXP Semiconductors. "The challenge is that Intel is not...giving the specification to anybody that competes with CPUs and chipsets," said a source close to AMD who is familiar with the dispute. As a result AMD, NVIDIA, VIA Technologies and probably others could be driven to create their own USB 3.0 specification that may lead to a lot of frustration and money lost on development. "We are going to be forced to create a secondary specification ... new open host controller standard for USB 3.0." the AMD source added. "They could spend the time, engineers and money developing their own host controller spec," an Intel source said. "In the past they have chosen to let us do the work and then benefit from the fruit of our labor." Continue reading the full story here.

Source: CNET News

OzzmanFloyd120 · Jun 7, 2008, 08:03 PM

Lame, just Microsoft and Intel being greedy again.

Wile E · Jun 7, 2008, 08:12 PM

Meh, just push 1394b (Firewire 800) instead. It will probably perform better anyway. lol.

jbizzler · Jun 7, 2008, 08:13 PM

Ruh-roh-Rorge.

Megasty · Jun 7, 2008, 08:16 PM

Just how incompetent can MS & Intel get. If the others do make their own 3.0 spec then it'll just serve those 2 BOECs right.

1c3d0g · Jun 7, 2008, 08:23 PM

Damn it. I don't want this to happen. Fragmentation of something as important as USB 3.0 must not be allowed. It's exactly this type of splintering that has divided the Linux community and caused them to get stuck in a never-ending battle, for instance (.rpm, .deb, GNOME/KDE, etc. etc.), or the stupid HD format wars (Blu-ray/HD-DVD).

If everyone worked together and played nice with each other this crap could be avoided.

beyond_amusia · Jun 7, 2008, 08:28 PM

Well, this will kill Firewire off for good unless Apple feels a needs to out do the 5 gigabits USB 3 is going to bring.

What's interesting is that AMD allows Crossfire to run on Intel platforms, but Intel is going to be a stinker about this... I do hope that AMD does not rush into making another USB spec though, because they will be able to get Intel's eventually, and it will take a while for USB 3 to replace USB 2, so I imagine everyone will have it before it's even replaced USB 2.

I am personally looking forward to getting a PCI=E USB 3 card for my tower and a USB 3 thumb drive for ReadyBoost. =)

OzzmanFloyd120 · Jun 7, 2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1c3d0g

Damn it. I don't want this to happen. Fragmentation of something as important as USB 3.0 must not be allowed. It's exactly this type of splintering that has divided the Linux community and caused them to get stuck in a never-ending battle, for instance (.rpm, .deb, GNOME/KDE, etc. etc.), or the stupid HD format wars (Blu-ray/HD-DVD).

If everyone worked together and played nice with each other this crap could be avoided.

That will never happen because there's too much money involved.

beyond_amusia · Jun 7, 2008, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1c3d0g

Damn it. I don't want this to happen. Fragmentation of something as important as USB 3.0 must not be allowed. It's exactly this type of splintering that has divided the Linux community and caused them to get stuck in a never-ending battle, for instance (.rpm, .deb, GNOME/KDE, etc. etc.), or the stupid HD format wars (Blu-ray/HD-DVD).

If everyone worked together and played nice with each other this crap could be avoided.

On the flip side, there would be no compition, but then again, to argue your point, look at DVD. The DVD standard is the result of merging the best specs from 2 initial DVD formats into one.

Now DVD -R and +R are another story... =/

Wile E · Jun 7, 2008, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beyond_amusia

Well, this will kill Firewire off for good unless Apple feels a needs to out do the 5 gigabits USB 3 is going to bring.

What's interesting is that AMD allows Crossfire to run on Intel platforms, but Intel is going to be a stinker about this... I do hope that AMD does not rush into making another USB spec though, because they will be able to get Intel's eventually, and it will take a while for USB 3 to replace USB 2, so I imagine everyone will have it before it's even replaced USB 2.

I am personally looking forward to getting a PCI=E USB 3 card for my tower and a USB 3 thumb drive for ReadyBoost. =)

It's a proposed 5Gb. USB 2.0 is is rated at 480Mb, yet Firewire 400 shames it. I doubt USB3 is gonna perform anywhere near their claims. That would make it theoretically faster than SATA II. Not gonna happen.

OzzmanFloyd120 · Jun 7, 2008, 08:33 PM

Also, for it to perform at those speeds, wouldn't the USB have to be linked right to the NB instead of being routed though the SB?

beyond_amusia · Jun 7, 2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wile E

It's a proposed 5Gb. USB 2.0 is is rated at 480Mb, yet Firewire 400 shames it. I doubt USB3 is gonna perform anywhere near their claims. That would make it theoretically faster than SATA II. Not gonna happen.

But most people that use Firewire also use SCSI drives, so naturally it will seem faster than USB 2.0

Oddly enough, USB was first made to kill off PS/2, and then they realizedthat Apple was really greedy by charging per Firewire controller, so the USB people decided they neededto break some chains. If you noticed, most of Apple's products now lack Firewire support.

beyond_amusia · Jun 7, 2008, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzzmanFloyd120

Also, for it to perform at those speeds, wouldn't the USB have to be linked right to the NB instead of being routed though the SB?

It'll use the PCI interface, and I imagine Intel's QuickPath will play a role as well to achive those speeds, but until hard disks catch up we will not ever use all that speed in a normal situation.

Wile E · Jun 7, 2008, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beyond_amusia

But most people that use Firewire also use SCSI drives, so naturally it will seem faster than USB 2.0

Oddly enough, USB was first made to kill off PS/2, and then they realizedthat Apple was really greedy by charging per Firewire controller, so the USB people decided they neededto break some chains. If you noticed, most of Apple's products now lack Firewire support.

No, it's been proven time and time again, Firewire 400 flat out outperforms USB 2.0. SCSI has nothing to do with it. Neither interface even has enough bandwidth to max out modern IDE drives, let alone SCSI.

beyond_amusia · Jun 7, 2008, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wile E

No, it's been proven time and time again, Firewire 400 flat out outperforms USB 2.0. SCSI has nothing to do with it. Neither interface even has enough bandwidth to max out modern IDE drives, let alone SCSI.

Not even the upcoming USB 3? =P I forgot how to convert mb/s into MB/s, otherwise I'd do the math.

And yes, I read up on it and you are right.

Maybe USB 2 has more latency than Firewire 400?

Wile E · Jun 7, 2008, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beyond_amusia

Not even the upcoming USB 3? =P I forgot how to convert mb/s into MB/s, otherwise I'd do the math.

And yes, I read up on it and you are right.

Maybe USB 2 has more latency than Firewire 400?

The difference is Firewire is a true streaming protocol, whereas USB is a "burst" (can't think of the proper term) protocol.

beyond_amusia · Jun 7, 2008, 08:54 PM

USB: speak only when spoken to, vs. Firewire: all devices freely communicate with each other.

Wile E · Jun 7, 2008, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beyond_amusia

USB: speak only when spoken to, vs. Firewire: all devices freely communicate with each other.

Sort of, but not really. lol. USB communicates in bursts. It doesn't stream the data constantly. It sends a little, then stops, then sends a little, then stops, etc., etc.

Makes an especially noticeable difference when dealing with large chunks of data. Whereas, when you move something over the firewire interface, it constantly streams the data, without the pauses.

WarEagleAU · Jun 7, 2008, 09:00 PM

Wow, I didnt know that. I thought USB 2.0 was faster than firewire. Learn something new everyday.

Darknova · Jun 7, 2008, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarEagleAU

Wow, I didnt know that. I thought USB 2.0 was faster than firewire. Learn something new everyday.

You don't say...

Still, as great as firewire seems to be, USB is number one with consumers (guess it's kinda like VHS winning over Betmax) and this kind of segregation will do nothing for the industry as a whole.

Imagine have USB 3a and USB 3b, and having to have all things compatible with each, or having to look out for devices specifically for each spec.

It will cause chaos with Joe Public.

spacejunky · Jun 7, 2008, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzzmanFloyd120

Lame, just Microsoft and Intel being greedy again.

Why are you dragging Microsoft into this? Just because they have to work with the new spec to make sure drivers will work on their OS? Why not blame TI as well? This is all Intel.

Don't forget Apple uses Intel boards and CPUs so you can't count on them for Firewire support anymore. They'll use what ever Intel gives them the best deal on.

You can nderstand Intel's frustration in making these specs and developing a new standard and not realizing a proprietized gain from it but this is the business they're in and what made them great are the open standards that separated them from the likes of Apple hardware back in the day.

It is looking like another mess to add to the non-sli Intel boards.

candle_86 · Jun 8, 2008, 01:09 AM

actully AMD doesn't have to do anything here, Intel has tried this before and AMD took them to court and won. All AMD has to do at most is a direct reverse engineer

OzzmanFloyd120 · Jun 8, 2008, 01:12 AM

True, but if there are two different technology standards then companies making USB peripherals will be forced to do more work to make their products, hence raising prices.
At least that's how I see it.

KBD · Jun 8, 2008, 01:31 AM

god forbid AMD and Intel work together on this, but no they have tranfer their little squabble into this too and the consumer will suffer in the end.

driver66 · Jun 8, 2008, 02:25 AM

So let me understand this. Intel develops the standard and is just supposed to give it away?

I really am not understanding your guys logic on this one

It is Intel's IP ........ they ae supposed to just share it with everyone??............
explain plz

Jun 7, 2008, 07:41 PM	#1
malware Eligible for custom title Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Bulgaria Posts: 5,413 (1.73/day) Thanks: 78 Thanked 986 Times in 497 Posts System Specs	NVIDIA and AMD Vie with Intel Over USB 3.0 First-tier makers NVIDIA and AMD are dissatisfied with Intel's ownership of the USB 3.0 specification, CNET reported yesterday. The next-generation high-speed USB 3.0 specification is aiming to become standard in 2009. It will be 10 times faster than USB 2.0 and at the same time as widespread as the current USB 2.0. The USB 3.0 will also retain full compatibility with USB 2.0 and presumably USB 1.0. The main investitors behind the USB 3.0 specs include Intel as well as Microsoft, Hewlett-Packard, Texas Instruments, NEC, and NXP Semiconductors. "The challenge is that Intel is not...giving the specification to anybody that competes with CPUs and chipsets," said a source close to AMD who is familiar with the dispute. As a result AMD, NVIDIA, VIA Technologies and probably others could be driven to create their own USB 3.0 specification that may lead to a lot of frustration and money lost on development. "We are going to be forced to create a secondary specification ... new open host controller standard for USB 3.0." the AMD source added. "They could spend the time, engineers and money developing their own host controller spec," an Intel source said. "In the past they have chosen to let us do the work and then benefit from the fruit of our labor." Continue reading the full story here. Source: CNET News

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Jun 7, 2008, 08:03 PM	#2
OzzmanFloyd120 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pontaic Michigan Posts: 2,150 (1.14/day) Thanks: 177 Thanked 305 Times in 270 Posts System Specs	Lame, just Microsoft and Intel being greedy again. __________________ Help, I need to sell my stuff to pay bills! - TPU's ATHF Fan Club! - The Video Editors' Clubhouse

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Jun 7, 2008, 08:12 PM	#3
Wile E Power User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Western PA (Pittsburgh suburbs) Posts: 18,129 (7.46/day) Thanks: 450 Thanked 3,826 Times in 3,124 Posts System Specs	Meh, just push 1394b (Firewire 800) instead. It will probably perform better anyway. lol. __________________ Visit Ashentech “What the hell did you expect? Leave Vista under the pillow and the OS fairy would make it Win7?” -El Fiendo “And Bring Mailman back god damnit, he is the Eric Cartman of TPU” -MRCL

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Jun 7, 2008, 08:13 PM	#4
jbizzler Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 80 (0.03/day) Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Ruh-roh-Rorge.

Jun 7, 2008, 08:16 PM	#5
Megasty Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: The Kingdom of Au Posts: 1,209 (0.64/day) Thanks: 76 Thanked 83 Times in 76 Posts System Specs	Just how incompetent can MS & Intel get. If the others do make their own 3.0 spec then it'll just serve those 2 BOECs right. __________________ gods are created through gaming not 3dmark... Comcast is great, isn't it...

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Jun 7, 2008, 08:23 PM	#6
1c3d0g Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 615 (0.31/day) Thanks: 2,255 Thanked 47 Times in 38 Posts	Damn it. I don't want this to happen. Fragmentation of something as important as USB 3.0 must not be allowed. It's exactly this type of splintering that has divided the Linux community and caused them to get stuck in a never-ending battle, for instance (.rpm, .deb, GNOME/KDE, etc. etc.), or the stupid HD format wars (Blu-ray/HD-DVD). If everyone worked together and played nice with each other this crap could be avoided.

Jun 7, 2008, 08:28 PM	#7
beyond_amusia Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Posts: 857 (0.37/day) Thanks: 253 Thanked 63 Times in 62 Posts System Specs	Well, this will kill Firewire off for good unless Apple feels a needs to out do the 5 gigabits USB 3 is going to bring. What's interesting is that AMD allows Crossfire to run on Intel platforms, but Intel is going to be a stinker about this... I do hope that AMD does not rush into making another USB spec though, because they will be able to get Intel's eventually, and it will take a while for USB 3 to replace USB 2, so I imagine everyone will have it before it's even replaced USB 2. I am personally looking forward to getting a PCI=E USB 3 card for my tower and a USB 3 thumb drive for ReadyBoost. =) __________________ Being honest about who you are sometimes comes at a price, but it's worth it.

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Jun 7, 2008, 08:33 PM	#11
OzzmanFloyd120 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pontaic Michigan Posts: 2,150 (1.14/day) Thanks: 177 Thanked 305 Times in 270 Posts System Specs	Also, for it to perform at those speeds, wouldn't the USB have to be linked right to the NB instead of being routed though the SB? __________________ Help, I need to sell my stuff to pay bills! - TPU's ATHF Fan Club! - The Video Editors' Clubhouse

Jun 7, 2008, 08:54 PM	#17
beyond_amusia Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Posts: 857 (0.37/day) Thanks: 253 Thanked 63 Times in 62 Posts System Specs	USB: speak only when spoken to, vs. Firewire: all devices freely communicate with each other. __________________ Being honest about who you are sometimes comes at a price, but it's worth it.

Jun 7, 2008, 09:00 PM	#19
WarEagleAU Bird of Prey Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Gurley, AL Posts: 9,994 (3.98/day) Thanks: 3,810 Thanked 557 Times in 521 Posts System Specs	Wow, I didnt know that. I thought USB 2.0 was faster than firewire. Learn something new everyday. __________________ =-TheEagle-= http://www.heatware.com/eval.php?id=62454 “You crazy? Surfing any website without an antivirus is like freaking with a dirty woman without protection” -OzzmanFloyd120 - Edited for content and clarity

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Jun 8, 2008, 01:09 AM	#22
candle_86 Banned Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,642 (1.13/day) Thanks: 76 Thanked 237 Times in 200 Posts	actully AMD doesn't have to do anything here, Intel has tried this before and AMD took them to court and won. All AMD has to do at most is a direct reverse engineer

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Jun 8, 2008, 01:12 AM	#23
OzzmanFloyd120 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pontaic Michigan Posts: 2,150 (1.14/day) Thanks: 177 Thanked 305 Times in 270 Posts System Specs	True, but if there are two different technology standards then companies making USB peripherals will be forced to do more work to make their products, hence raising prices. At least that's how I see it. __________________ Help, I need to sell my stuff to pay bills! - TPU's ATHF Fan Club! - The Video Editors' Clubhouse

Jun 8, 2008, 01:31 AM	#24
KBD Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The Rotten Big Apple Posts: 2,416 (1.06/day) Thanks: 423 Thanked 291 Times in 273 Posts System Specs	god forbid AMD and Intel work together on this, but no they have tranfer their little squabble into this too and the consumer will suffer in the end.

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Jun 8, 2008, 02:25 AM	#25
driver66 Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: indiana Posts: 789 (0.36/day) Thanks: 439 Thanked 113 Times in 109 Posts System Specs	So let me understand this. Intel develops the standard and is just supposed to give it away? I really am not understanding your guys logic on this one It is Intel's IP ........ they ae supposed to just share it with everyone??............ explain plz __________________ “cheap hooker can be sold cheaper, being a low-end product, you could probably give her a smaller cut? effectively increasing your revenue percentage. now all you need is to increase your absolute number of sales to make more money.” -W1zzard “you had a pedobear called mohammed as avatar .. should i go ahead and post your ip at al-qaeda forums?” -W1zzard

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