Radeon PhysX Creator: 'NVIDIA Offered To Help Us', 'Expected More From AMD'

btarunr · Jul 4, 2008, 12:15 PM

In a dramatic turnaround of events, NGOHQ.com, the creators of a special system software that allowed users of the ATI Radeon graphics accelerators to use proprietary features of NVIDIA graphics accelerators such as GPU-accelerated version of the NVIDIA PhysX game physics API, claim that in fact NVIDIA wanted to help them with this effort. On June, the 26th we had covered reports of the said outfit improvising a driver after proving that NVIDIA's proprietary GPGPU architecture, CUDA was flexible enough to work on a ATI RV670 graphics processor.

The NVIDIA PhysX API has gained immense popularity with the industry off late though the standard itself is not very recent, with the former Ageia having been in the industry for a while before its takeover by NVIDIA. The recent popularity surge of this API owes to the fact that PhysX processing plays a significant role in affecting the scores of the 3DMark Vantage benchmark, where a certain CPU test routine evaluates the computer's physics processing abilities. This gives users of the latest line of GeForce graphics accelerators an advantage over their Radeon counterparts since they get a significant increment in the benchmark score. The PhysX API functions as a CUDA application on GeForce, where the GPU's shaders are used by the process to process physics. With NGOHQ.com being successfully able to modify CUDA to function on ATI GPUs, it was only a formality to run any CUDA application on it, the PhysX process included. NGOHQ.com has gone on record saying that enabling PhysX support on Radeon cards is not particularly difficult, and might not be much be a technology problem but an issue of corporate dynamics.

The team sought support from AMD in the form of a Radeon HD4800 series sample, so they could work out a similar solution for it, but AMD rejected it telling it wasn't a venture worth investing product samples and PR information on, clearly a case of them downplaying the issue to evade possible action from NVIDIA on supporting the use of its proprietary technologies in violation of license agreements. After being denied support from a company they were banking the most on, they were left to their own plight against NVIDIA who have a history of an aggressive business model, even more so after it was known NGOHQ.com may have reverse engineered drivers, a clear violation of the EULA.

The dramatic turnaround of events has caused a little more than a ripple across the industry, the team at NGOHQ.com now claims that NVIDIA actually offered help to them and that they want to strengthen the industry position of CUDA as a viable competitor to Intel and its processing technologies. This follows news reports of a high-ranked officer at Intel downplaying the rising popularity of CUDA and effectively counter the competitive physics API, Havoc, which uses CPU to process in-game physics. The team goes on to use phrases such as "it seems they are giving us their blessings" to highlight their appreciation for the company.

What's beneath this green sugar-coat of an M&M bean? Clear corporate agenda at play. NVIDIA gets away with the higher moral ground in the issue, of having come in support of a small outfit trying to work on technologies that enhanced their competitor's, while in reality all AMD must have wanted was to stay away from IPR headaches at a time when a reinvigorated Radeon line is going head on against GeForce, the way NGOHQ.com portreys their approach looks more like they shied away from a challenge, in their views.

With inputs from NGOHQ.com

Para_Franck · Jul 4, 2008, 12:37 PM

Can anyone say : Foolish games!

X-TeNDeR · Jul 4, 2008, 12:46 PM

Can it be, that NVidia is aiding these efforts, in order to push physx deeper into the gaming scene? if ATI cards could run it too, it might have more grip in the market. as long as NVidia call the shots, ofcourse.

Indeed, games

Megasty · Jul 4, 2008, 12:46 PM

Well obviously ATi should take no part in this in fear of being swamped by NV. NV may want to better promote CUDA in this way but don't they have more important things to do in light of recent events. Anyway, all the better for us.

TheGuruStud · Jul 4, 2008, 12:52 PM

Maybe Nvidia is trying to push out Intel. It would be a smart move if you ask me and good for both companies.

vojc · Jul 4, 2008, 12:53 PM

god for Nvidia, they will make mor agea supported games

Cold Storm · Jul 4, 2008, 12:54 PM

I'm just glad that this isn't going to be like the Creative issue a while back.. Work with one another for the same goal. Then we will see how good these companies can be!

[I.R.A]_FBi · Jul 4, 2008, 01:27 PM

So I, ati is going to knowingly support a faction that is breaking my biggest competitor's EULA?

jigga plz.

Kreij · Jul 4, 2008, 01:35 PM

From my post on 6-26 when this was first announced ..

Quote:

I'm not so sure that Nvidia will make a big fuss about it.
The fact that it can be used on ATI cards or any others is a feather in their cap, not a detriment.
If they allow it, the open source community will hail them as heroes of the cause.

Looks like they agreed with me

btarunr · Jul 4, 2008, 01:43 PM

Maybe on the opensource, or EU. Who knows, maybe an year or so down the line, EU would have slapped anti-competition charges against NV? As for CUDA, while the compiler that's part of the SDK is derived from an open-source Open64, everything else (binaries...libs...headers...) are proprietary, you can haz dem for free nao but no source code given to you (of everything).

InnocentCriminal · Jul 4, 2008, 01:43 PM

Well written btarunr, I enjoyed reading that.

TheGuruStud · Jul 4, 2008, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InnocentCriminal

Well written btarunr, I enjoyed reading that.

Go easy on him. He's lucky his brain can even type after two bottles of wild turkey last night.

InnocentCriminal · Jul 4, 2008, 01:53 PM

HEH HEH HEH!

Even better, good man!

btarunr · Jul 4, 2008, 02:37 PM

Are we missing the fact that it's also NV's long-term strategy of pushing CUDA against AMD FireStream and AMD's own GPGPU architecture? I would add that to the basket.

dark2099 · Jul 4, 2008, 02:37 PM

I hope that now since NVidia has offered to help NGOHQ with their quest, maybe ATI/AMD will step up and get on board again since with NVidia seemingly being ok with the venture they won't press any charges.

[I.R.A]_FBi · Jul 4, 2008, 02:40 PM

The fact is not that they want it to run on amd cards fro the "greater good" but they want to corner the market in essense cause if it runs on both cards they will become a standard and push out havok

newtekie1 · Jul 4, 2008, 03:07 PM

PhysX's biggest competitor is Intel's solution, so it only makes sense that nVidia would want to help promote their technology in any way possible, even if that means helping to get it running on ATi's hardware. It's a good move by nVidia, IMO.

adrianx · Jul 4, 2008, 03:12 PM

so in the clear future will not see any driver with ageia support for ati

if nvidia want to help ati (this is strange), I think the nvidia have same interest in that.

I don't see the nvidia working for free to improve the AMD/ATI products.

Also, read about the AMD and HAVOK agreements about the physics accelerations on the HD cards. So I believe that cost same money from AMD.

InnocentCriminal · Jul 4, 2008, 03:40 PM

I can't help but see ATi as the clear winners here. They're supporting Havoc and nVIDIA aren't bothered about PhysX working on their cards. Brilliant!

EastCoasthandle · Jul 4, 2008, 04:07 PM

Based on Nvidia's politics regarding DX10.1 I don't see AMD/ATI being so gracious as to support Cuda. But time will tell.

WarEagleAU · Jul 4, 2008, 04:36 PM

I dont really see the point in all of this. Who cares if AMD/ATI didnt want to violate some licensing. I Think that is smart. Boo hoo for not throwing us a freaking bone here.

btarunr · Jul 4, 2008, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarEagleAU

I dont really see the point in all of this. Who cares if AMD/ATI didnt want to violate some licensing. I Think that is smart.

That's an important explanation behind not sending samples to NGOHQ.com, as if they couldn't afford it themselves for $199.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarEagleAU

Boo hoo for not throwing us a freaking bone here.

Syntax error.

eidairaman1 · Jul 4, 2008, 05:11 PM

i smell a big rat.

Bundy · Jul 4, 2008, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eidairaman1

i smell a big rat.

So do I. What is next? AMD backing Phys-x? Has Nvidia got a fancy chipset in waiting that can further capitalise on CUDA? Maybe they are positioning themselves in preparation for Nehalem?

btarunr · Jul 5, 2008, 04:14 AM

They're have trouble with Intel in doing that AFAIK

Jul 4, 2008, 12:15 PM	#1
btarunr Editor & Senior Moderator Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Hyderabad, India Posts: 14,984 (7.29/day) Thanks: 788 Thanked 12,911 Times in 5,655 Posts System Specs	Radeon PhysX Creator: 'NVIDIA Offered To Help Us', 'Expected More From AMD' In a dramatic turnaround of events, NGOHQ.com, the creators of a special system software that allowed users of the ATI Radeon graphics accelerators to use proprietary features of NVIDIA graphics accelerators such as GPU-accelerated version of the NVIDIA PhysX game physics API, claim that in fact NVIDIA wanted to help them with this effort. On June, the 26th we had covered reports of the said outfit improvising a driver after proving that NVIDIA's proprietary GPGPU architecture, CUDA was flexible enough to work on a ATI RV670 graphics processor. The NVIDIA PhysX API has gained immense popularity with the industry off late though the standard itself is not very recent, with the former Ageia having been in the industry for a while before its takeover by NVIDIA. The recent popularity surge of this API owes to the fact that PhysX processing plays a significant role in affecting the scores of the 3DMark Vantage benchmark, where a certain CPU test routine evaluates the computer's physics processing abilities. This gives users of the latest line of GeForce graphics accelerators an advantage over their Radeon counterparts since they get a significant increment in the benchmark score. The PhysX API functions as a CUDA application on GeForce, where the GPU's shaders are used by the process to process physics. With NGOHQ.com being successfully able to modify CUDA to function on ATI GPUs, it was only a formality to run any CUDA application on it, the PhysX process included. NGOHQ.com has gone on record saying that enabling PhysX support on Radeon cards is not particularly difficult, and might not be much be a technology problem but an issue of corporate dynamics. The team sought support from AMD in the form of a Radeon HD4800 series sample, so they could work out a similar solution for it, but AMD rejected it telling it wasn't a venture worth investing product samples and PR information on, clearly a case of them downplaying the issue to evade possible action from NVIDIA on supporting the use of its proprietary technologies in violation of license agreements. After being denied support from a company they were banking the most on, they were left to their own plight against NVIDIA who have a history of an aggressive business model, even more so after it was known NGOHQ.com may have reverse engineered drivers, a clear violation of the EULA. The dramatic turnaround of events has caused a little more than a ripple across the industry, the team at NGOHQ.com now claims that NVIDIA actually offered help to them and that they want to strengthen the industry position of CUDA as a viable competitor to Intel and its processing technologies. This follows news reports of a high-ranked officer at Intel downplaying the rising popularity of CUDA and effectively counter the competitive physics API, Havoc, which uses CPU to process in-game physics. The team goes on to use phrases such as "it seems they are giving us their blessings" to highlight their appreciation for the company. What's beneath this green sugar-coat of an M&M bean? Clear corporate agenda at play. NVIDIA gets away with the higher moral ground in the issue, of having come in support of a small outfit trying to work on technologies that enhanced their competitor's, while in reality all AMD must have wanted was to stay away from IPR headaches at a time when a reinvigorated Radeon line is going head on against GeForce, the way NGOHQ.com portreys their approach looks more like they shied away from a challenge, in their views. With inputs from NGOHQ.com Last edited by btarunr; Jul 4, 2008 at 02:35 PM.

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Jul 4, 2008, 12:46 PM	#3
X-TeNDeR Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Sharpening The Underdog's Teeth Posts: 110 (0.05/day) Thanks: 14 Thanked 13 Times in 10 Posts System Specs	Can it be, that NVidia is aiding these efforts, in order to push physx deeper into the gaming scene? if ATI cards could run it too, it might have more grip in the market. as long as NVidia call the shots, ofcourse. Indeed, games __________________ AMD-ATI FTW! “The 8800Ultra rocks. How many people can afford one? Not many. Do we all want one? Everyone but the ATI fanbois but they secretly use one in the closet.” -Palit_Guy

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Jul 4, 2008, 12:46 PM	#4
Megasty Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: The Kingdom of Au Posts: 1,209 (0.64/day) Thanks: 76 Thanked 83 Times in 76 Posts System Specs	Well obviously ATi should take no part in this in fear of being swamped by NV. NV may want to better promote CUDA in this way but don't they have more important things to do in light of recent events. Anyway, all the better for us. __________________ gods are created through gaming not 3dmark... Comcast is great, isn't it...

Jul 4, 2008, 12:37 PM	#2
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TheGuruStud Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Police/Nanny State of America Posts: 1,394 (0.67/day) Thanks: 45 Thanked 142 Times in 109 Posts System Specs	Maybe Nvidia is trying to push out Intel. It would be a smart move if you ask me and good for both companies. __________________

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vojc Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 84 (0.04/day) Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts	god for Nvidia, they will make mor agea supported games

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Cold Storm Battosai Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: In a library somewhere on this earth Posts: 10,566 (5.14/day) Thanks: 4,242 Thanked 3,047 Times in 2,493 Posts System Specs	I'm just glad that this isn't going to be like the Creative issue a while back.. Work with one another for the same goal. Then we will see how good these companies can be! __________________ The only way success is before work, is in the dictionary Support for the mind. Support for your hardware

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Jul 4, 2008, 01:43 PM	#11
InnocentCriminal Resident Grammar Amender Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: 'ereyfurd, UK Posts: 5,471 (1.81/day) Thanks: 198 Thanked 855 Times in 667 Posts System Specs	Well written btarunr, I enjoyed reading that. __________________ *Post count isn't* an intelligence meter. During the rectification of the Vuldronaii the Traveler came as a large, moving Torb. Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the Meketrex supplicants they chose a new form for him—that of a giant Sloar! Many Shubs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Sloar that day, I can tell you. Musek*: "InnocentCriminal - a Chuck Norris of the TPU - knows what you are about to type and he WILL type it faster than you."*

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Jul 4, 2008, 02:37 PM	#14
btarunr Editor & Senior Moderator Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Hyderabad, India Posts: 14,984 (7.29/day) Thanks: 788 Thanked 12,911 Times in 5,655 Posts System Specs	Are we missing the fact that it's also NV's long-term strategy of pushing CUDA against AMD FireStream and AMD's own GPGPU architecture? I would add that to the basket. __________________ Gadgets, Phones, Tablets, Cameras, TVs, HiFi...NextPowerUp

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Jul 4, 2008, 02:40 PM	#16
[I.R.A]_FBi Eligible for custom title Join Date: May 2007 Location: c:\programs\kitteh.exe Posts: 6,152 (2.80/day) Thanks: 724 Thanked 556 Times in 461 Posts System Specs	The fact is not that they want it to run on amd cards fro the "greater good" but they want to corner the market in essense cause if it runs on both cards they will become a standard and push out havok __________________ Rig 1+1 Athlon XP 2200+, MSI KM2M Combo, ATI 9200SE 128 MB DDR, 2 X 512 MB DDR333, 250GB + 80 HDD? “try intel cpu, amd is only good for going to nude sites” -firehawkxd “go for the 5850 now and play games while the nvidiots wait for the ceo to show an actual working product” -W1zzard “An MSI logo? This offends my retina. I await your apology.” -MRCL www.autolounge.com.jm

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Jul 4, 2008, 03:12 PM	#18
adrianx Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Bucharest ROMANIA Posts: 321 (0.16/day) Thanks: 2 Thanked 25 Times in 20 Posts System Specs	so in the clear future will not see any driver with ageia support for ati if nvidia want to help ati (this is strange), I think the nvidia have same interest in that. I don't see the nvidia working for free to improve the AMD/ATI products. Also, read about the AMD and HAVOK agreements about the physics accelerations on the HD cards. So I believe that cost same money from AMD.

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Jul 4, 2008, 03:40 PM	#19
InnocentCriminal Resident Grammar Amender Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: 'ereyfurd, UK Posts: 5,471 (1.81/day) Thanks: 198 Thanked 855 Times in 667 Posts System Specs	I can't help but see ATi as the clear winners here. They're supporting Havoc and nVIDIA aren't bothered about PhysX working on their cards. Brilliant! __________________ *Post count isn't* an intelligence meter. During the rectification of the Vuldronaii the Traveler came as a large, moving Torb. Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the Meketrex supplicants they chose a new form for him—that of a giant Sloar! Many Shubs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Sloar that day, I can tell you. Musek*: "InnocentCriminal - a Chuck Norris of the TPU - knows what you are about to type and he WILL type it faster than you."*

Jul 4, 2008, 04:07 PM	#20
EastCoasthandle Eligible for custom title Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 6,244 (2.11/day) Thanks: 382 Thanked 1,526 Times in 865 Posts System Specs	Based on Nvidia's politics regarding DX10.1 I don't see AMD/ATI being so gracious as to support Cuda. But time will tell. __________________ Windows 7 Club!, Online Gaming Lag and You GPU/CPU Water Cooling Club, Q9650 OC'd vs 2600K Stock PC Air Cooling Club, Game Performance Tips

System Name:	MY PC
Processor:	E8400 @ 3.80Ghz > Q9650 3.60Ghz
Motherboard:	Maximus Formula
Cooling:	D5, 7/16" ID Tubing, Maze4 with Fuzion CPU WB
Memory:	XMS 8500C5D @ 1066MHz
Video Card:	HD 2900 XT 858/900 to 4870 to 5870 (Keep Vreg area clean)
Hard Disk:	2
Optical Drive:	2
CRT/LCD Model:	24"
Case:	P180
Sound Card:	X-fi Plantinum
PSU:	Silencer 750
Software:	XP Pro SP3 to Windows 7
Benchmarks:	This varies from one driver to another.

Jul 4, 2008, 04:36 PM	#21
WarEagleAU Bird of Prey Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Gurley, AL Posts: 9,994 (3.98/day) Thanks: 3,810 Thanked 557 Times in 521 Posts System Specs	I dont really see the point in all of this. Who cares if AMD/ATI didnt want to violate some licensing. I Think that is smart. Boo hoo for not throwing us a freaking bone here. __________________ =-TheEagle-= http://www.heatware.com/eval.php?id=62454 “You crazy? Surfing any website without an antivirus is like freaking with a dirty woman without protection” -OzzmanFloyd120 - Edited for content and clarity

System Name:	Boddha Getta
Processor:	AMD FX 6100 @ 4.432Ghz @1.401V
Motherboard:	ASUS M5A99X EVO AMD 990X AMD SB950
Cooling:	Custom Water. EK 240MM Kit, Supreme HSF - Runs 35C
Memory:	2 x 4GB Corsair Vengeance White LP @ 1.35V
Video Card:	XFX Radeon HD 6870 900/1050 (no OC yet)
Hard Disk:	WD Caviar Black 1.0TB, WD Caviar Green 1.0TB, WD 160GB
Optical Drive:	Samung SH22SL 22X Lightscribe DVD+/-R/RW LG BDRE Reader/Burner Lite ON Max Burner for burning Xbox
CRT/LCD Model:	Asus VH222/S 22: (21.5" Viewable) 1920x1080p HDMI LCD Monitor
Case:	NZXT White Phantom
Sound Card:	Onboard Realtek 5.1
PSU:	NZXT Hale 90 Gold Cert 750W Modular PSU
Software:	Windows 7 Pro 64 bit.
Benchmarks:	5.9 Windows Index rating 3D06 - 17472

Jul 4, 2008, 05:11 PM	#23
eidairaman1 Eligible for custom title Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: HTX Posts: 10,080 (4.68/day) Thanks: 1,359 Thanked 1,159 Times in 1,035 Posts System Specs	i smell a big rat. __________________ Athlon XP USERS with COD 4 FIX http://www.techsupportforum.com/foru...ls-202011.html http://www.howorks.com/2011/02/24/ho...-memory-limit/ “Sometimes my level of fail is unprecedented.” -TheMailMan78 “This is what the force of a thousand suns looks like.” -3870x2

System Name:	BS03/04
Processor:	AMD Athlon XP-M 2500+ 2.2GHz 1.5V
Motherboard:	DFI LanParty NFII Ultra-B Bios (TicTac 3D Fire R2)
Cooling:	4 Antec 80mm, TR SI-97 Adapted TT Big Typhoon Fan 120MM
Memory:	2GB Mushkin Redline 4000 @ 200 MHz 2.5V
Video Card:	Sapphire R1950Pro 512MB AGP 1.5V
Hard Disk:	250 & 400 GB Seagate Baracuda 10 SATA
Optical Drive:	2x Samsung Multiformat Rewritable Drives
CRT/LCD Model:	NEC Multisync LCD 1700V
Case:	Antec SX830 EATX Case
Sound Card:	Creative Labs SB XFi Xtreme Music & SB PCI 512
PSU:	Antec NEO HE 500 Watt
Software:	Windows 7 Home Premium
Benchmarks:	Win 7 Eval. CPU 3.9 Ram 4.5 Graphics 6.0 HD 5.7

System Name:	Dads computer
Processor:	Q6700 @ 3.4GHz, 1.35V
Motherboard:	Gigabyte X48 DQ6
Cooling:	Thermalright ultra-120 extreme lapped
Memory:	8GB Corsair Dominator 1066 5-5-5-15
Video Card:	Gigabyte 5850 x2
Hard Disk:	2 x seagate 320MB raid 0
Optical Drive:	lite-on
CRT/LCD Model:	AOC 210V 22"
Case:	coolermaster stacker
Sound Card:	on board spdif out
PSU:	coolermaster real power pro 850w
Software:	Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit
Benchmarks:	3dmark 06 - 15300 - 8800 Ultra 3dmark 09 - 18353 - 5850 x 2

Jul 5, 2008, 04:14 AM	#25
btarunr Editor & Senior Moderator Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Hyderabad, India Posts: 14,984 (7.29/day) Thanks: 788 Thanked 12,911 Times in 5,655 Posts System Specs	They're have trouble with Intel in doing that AFAIK __________________ Gadgets, Phones, Tablets, Cameras, TVs, HiFi...NextPowerUp

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