California - Proposition 8 Made Simple

[AuDioFreaK39]

Check it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA


CA Codes - FAMILY.CODE
SECTION 297-297.5

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...file=297-297.5

[ShadowFold]

Why do people care if gay marriage is illegal? They will still live with each other and still love each other, they just cant be legally married.. I really hate prejudice.. and humanity..

[DonInKansas]

That video is the biggest load of crap I've ever seen. Limited discrimination is still discrimination. People need to realize that marriage is not solely a religious institution anymore. Is there a place on your taxes where you can file as a domestic partnership? Many companies do not recognize domestic partnerships when it comes to things like health insurance coverage.

[ChromeDome]

its really quite simple

marriage by law is not a "sacred" institution that is only for opposite sex couples. when you get married in a church you are not legally married until you go down to city hall and get that license, and a license is granted. then you can take advantage of all things a legal marriage has to offer you

if an opposite sex couple goes down to city hall, a place of government, and gets a license, and a same sex couple, who were married in a church, walks in after them and are turned down for the SAME license, issued by government, then that is discrimination under law and possibly a violation of constitutional rights. which provides every citizen with equal protection under the law

protection from what? protection from this sort of government discrimination based solely on sex and gender choice in private sexual matters

marriage should be for everyone. it is in fact for everyone. just because you have a same sex partner should not exclude you from it

[imperialreign]

Prop 8 is the biggest load of Californian bullshit I've seen in a long while . . .


and for all the supporters of it - why do you use religion to back up your arguments?


spirituality is subjective, and has no place within our political working and government insitutions - because there is no concise white or black in any major religous text, how can one stand proud that your "gray area" beliefs should form the basis of any government ruling or law?

and for the truly blind-zealots out there, the ones who go around thumping their bibles like it's the natural code of laws and ethics for the universe - I invite you to use your holy-texts to dismiss these points:

* Of 32,000 verses in the Bible, only five directly mention homosexuality.
* The Qur'an only directly mentions homosexuality once.
* Leviticus, the book of the Bible which stipulates death for homosexuality, requires the same punishment for adultery, pre-marital sex, disobedient children and blasphemy.
* The Biblical Jesus does not condemn homosexuality.
* The destruction of the Biblical city of Sodom was due to their mistreatment of strangers.
* The Bible never condemns same sex marriage.
* The Biblical David and Jonathan had a formal same-sex union.
* 'Traditional marriage' in the Bible includes polygamy.
* No known sacred text forbids same sex marriage.
* Very few sacred texts even mention homosexuality.
* Hindu and other far eastern sacred texts do not condemn homosexuality.
* Homosexuality is not unnatural, it is practised by hundreds of species of animals.

if you actually put the same amount of effort into reading and studying your holy-scriptures (cause, really, how many devout-christians have read the bible cover to cover?) that you do into fighting such moral nonsense, perhaps you'd actually have learned something instead of making things up.



As far as I'm concerned, prop 8 is a ridiculous example of state governments that have gone awry with their power, and now want to dictate how we live and manage our own lives . . . I thought that was supposed to be left up to the federal government.

[Wile E]

I'm a christian, and I say that if gay couples want to get married, so be it. It's absolutely none of my business what others choose to do with their lives. That's the way it should be.

[kid41212003]

I mean ho harms, I don't have problem with gay couples or w.e
I don't really care about same sex marriage.

As long as it not affects my life/family. If I have kids, I wouldn't want the teachers telling them stories about same sex couples. It will not harm my kids, but I want them to grow up in a straight and natural way, and when they are old enough, they can decide which sex is their partner.

Why did god create male and female? (If you believe in god)
Why I, a male want to make love with a female, but not a male when the first time I understand about sex?
The day you were born as a female/male, discrimination is already there.
Female physically weaker than male, female has to give birth to kids, and their annoying periods.

In your life, have ever you heard someone ask you "Are you a man?"
I guess some of you did. So, What If I am a man? I have to be strong? I can't act girly? A man can't cry?
"I'm a man, and I want to give birth, but I can't, this is discrimination", who are you gonna file an complaint to? God?
What I'm trying to tell you is, people born with discrimination in their brain. If you want to get rid of discrimination, you have to get rid of sex.

If sex doesn't matter the day I was born, then It's a different story.

A women can not become a Priest in Catholic church, discrimination?
Catholic church doesn't do same sex marriage, discrimination?

It's natural that a "Father" is a male.

Same sex marriage is not wrong, It your rights to choose your partner, but I want my kids to be educate in a straight way, the way that not go against human nature.

Human society still too early for this.
We'll never get rid of discrimination, It's everywhere. But we can limited it to acceptable level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWbLkXhGEmo

Gay but not gay, man but not man.

[imperialreign]

Originally Posted by kid41212003

I mean ho harms, I don't have problem with gay couples or w.e
I don't really care about same sex marriage.

As long as it not affects my life/family. If I have kids, I wouldn't want the teachers telling them stories about same sex couples. It will not harm my kids, but I want them to grow up in a straight and natural way, and when they are old enough, they can decide which sex is their partner.

Why did god create male and female? (If you believe in god)
Why I, a male want to make love with a female, but not a male when the first time I understand about sex?
The day you were born as a female/male, discrimination is already there.
Female physically weaker than male, female has to give birth to kids, and their annoying periods.

In your life, have ever you heard someone ask you "Are you a man?"
I guess some of you did. So, What If I am a man? I have to be strong? I can't act girly? A man can't cry?
"I'm a man, and I want to give birth, but I can't, this is discrimination", who are you gonna file an complaint to? God?
What I'm trying to tell you is, people born with discrimination in their brain. If you want to get rid of discrimination, you have to get rid of sex.

If sex doesn't matter the day I was born, then It's a different story.

A women can not become a Priest in Catholic church, discrimination?
Catholic church doesn't do same sex marriage, discrimination?

It's natural that a "Father" is a male.

Same sex marriage is not wrong, It your rights to choose your partner, but I want my kids to be educate in a straight way, the way that not go against human nature.

Human society still too early for this.
We'll never get rid of discrimination, It's everywhere. But we can limited it to acceptable level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWbLkXhGEmo

Gay but not gay, man but not man.

I understand your position - to an extent.

and not to point fingers at any specific indivuals . . . but homosexuality, as any of them will tell you, is not a choice - it's not a learned behaviour . . . to them it's just a natural thing. Where a lot of issues arise that makes it "appear" as a choice for them is from the pressures our closed-minded society has placed upon homosexuality - don't believe me, take a look at many of the european countries, and asian, where it's more publicly acceptable than it is here in the US. Even as natural as it may be for them, a lot of the times they still feel wrong and disgusted by themselves - because the close-minded (and mostly christian) majority have been on a moral crusade for decades now slamming their gavels and preaching that homosexuality is the work of the devil and etc., etc.

And yet, the one aspect of their arguement that I find the funniest of all - is the basis for their argument . . . The Bible. They've continued to use it as a tool for supporting their claims, their views that it's evil, unnatural, not-as-God-intended . . . and yet, all those arguements are themselves refuted in the very tool that they use to support their view. If they would actually read the bible, as they so claim they do, they might have to shove their leg - from the foot to the knee - in their own mouth.


As natural as being straight is for I, or any other heterosexual, so is homosexuality a natural thing for those that just are that way.






Now, even for the arguement that homosexuals are just "confused" as to their sexual orientation, I don't see how anyone could claim that as being the case . . . unless you want to blame the parents of those who are homosexual, for suppressing their child's natural sexually-cognitive, and physical development, which really starts as young as the age of 2 when children start to develop an understanding of "he's a boy" and "she's a girl." Parents who don't know, or are insecure enough, with their child's development typically tend to blow off or ignore many statements and questions children might raise - questions that help them to make sense of themselves, as well as others. Such being the case, wouldn't it be very easy to assume, point the finger, place the blame, or hold accountable a homosexual's parents? Why, it must've been their poor parenting technique that forced their child to become confused about their sexual-orientation, right?

And we all know that, in itself, is a load of bullshit. I've known quite a few homosexuals and bisexuals, both male and female, whose parents are just the same as mine, yours, or any of your friends. Again, their is no confusion as to their orientation.



Trying to "learn," or teach a child something that specific, which should just be developed naturally, will only cause contempt from your child towards you - as well as truly genuine confusion should they truly turn out to be homosexual . . . or, should they turn out to be heterosexual, instead of confusion there will be only bigotry because you've taught them that homosexuality is just wrong.

And right there we get to the parenting arguement I just made as well . . .



If you can't accept them for being just a naturally human as you, yourself, are - no matter their sexual orientation - then you are really no better than you claim them to be.

[das müffin mann]

here i will help make a simple decision on prop 8
vote no
there wasn't that simple

[Katanai]

All I can say is that most of you in this thread are wrong. I don't care about your opinions or those of others. I wouldn't even care about this subject matter if it was not for one thing: kids. It's one thing if you choose to sleep with another man, it's another thing if your state is telling you it's ok, yet another if you are allowed to get married and live together BUT when that same state allows you to adopt kids, that's where my friends I draw the line. It's your choice if you want to be gay but don't force it on innocent beings. And yeah don't even dare to tell me that a kid raised by two dads won't have issues. It's just fucked up! There are some limits that should never be crossed. This is one of those cases.

[das müffin mann]

dude, one of my best friends was raised by 2 moms, and he turned out better than most of the kids with 2 "normal" parents

guess what they make just as good, if not better parents- not all the time but this is something i witnessed first hand
he is engaged, on his fourth year of college, and he doesn't drink or do drugs, i would say that is some successful parenting right there....

NO HE WILL NOT NECESSARILY HAVE ISSUES!!!!!!!!
i will dare tell you that

it's not the gender of the parents that matters- it's the parenting its self

[Katanai]

Originally Posted by das müffin mann

dude, one of my best friends was raised by 2 moms, and he turned out better than most of the kids with 2 "normal" parents

guess what they make just as good, if not better parents- not all the time but this is something i witnessed first hand
he is engaged, on his fourth year of college, and he doesn't drink or do drugs, i would say that is some successful parenting right there....

NO HE WILL NOT NECESSARILY HAVE ISSUES!!!!!!!!
i will dare tell you that

Well then do whatever you want. It's your country and your kids. Still it's a shame it has come to this. Kids have no place in this world anymore. Just look at what the current generation is doing. Why are they cutting their arms? Is it because this was a good world for them? We all sit here, laugh and discuss, yet at the same time people are hurting and crying. It's a fucked up world we live in and as I see it only gets worse.

[das müffin mann]

so it's gay/lesbian couples fault that kids are cutting their wrists?
ever hear of the emo trend?

dude this world has always been fucked up, and there has always been fucked up people, that's not about to change anytime soon

[ShadowFold]

Emo kids are emo because they want to fit in. Not because their life sucks and they might have two dads/moms.. I know someone who has two dads, hes one of the coolest people I know.

[Katanai]

Originally Posted by das müffin mann

so it's gay/lesbian couples fault that kids are cutting their wrists?
ever hear of the emo trend?

dude this world has always been fucked up, and there has always been fucked up people, that's not about to change anytime soon

Ever heard of the phrase: each generation is a reflection of the world they live in?
You are thinking in too narrow terms for me to have a real discussion with you now...

[das müffin mann]

well lets have a discussion and find out
i was just refuting your claim
but same sex couples have been adopting/having kids for how many years now? where as the whole "wrist cutting" fad is relatively recent
as shadowfold said they do it to fit in

[kid41212003]

Originally Posted by imperialreign

Trying to "learn," or teach a child something that specific, which should just be developed naturally, will only cause contempt from your child towards you - as well as truly genuine confusion should they truly turn out to be homosexual . . . or, should they turn out to be heterosexual, instead of confusion there will be only bigotry because you've taught them that homosexuality is just wrong.

And right there we get to the parenting arguement I just made as well . . .



If you can't accept them for being just a naturally human as you, yourself, are - no matter their sexual orientation - then you are really no better than you claim them to be.

Do you think a kid can grow on his/her own in a properly way? Why there are parents and schools? A kid learn everything they see around them, they consumed it. Everything you said or taught your kids will affect his/her personalities. Friends, communities around them will influences them.

I rather not mention/telling about homosexual.
Why? When a kid asked you Is killing people wrong? And why soldiers kill people?
What will you tell them? Do you think they will able to understand?
Why there is a word "underage"?

So, If we grow a kid, in a way that already existed when human appeared in this earth.
A family with father and mother, grandma and grandpa. And then, If the kid want to go find a same sex partner, I will not interfere. Because he/she already old enough to understand and find their own happiness.

If you can't accept them for being just a naturally human as you, yourself

This is a lil too far, I did not say that, I wasn't saying about the people in the relationship, I said the "relationship" between them.

Love exists in many and different ways. Love can exists between man or women. This is natural.
But the relationship between them isn't natural. It's not how the world works.
They can have their rights like many others.
But I don't want to be educate, influences by it.
If they want to go around telling people It's right, and It's natural. I will clearly say that, THEY ARE DOING WRONG THINGS.
And IF there are schools teaching kids about same sex relationship are wrong, they are WRONG too.

Once again, I said that same sex marriage/couple are not wrong, but it's un-natural.
And I don't want anything or anyone teaching my family or kids about any of this.
No one ever said same sex marriage is wrong to me, I understand this in my own way, and I believed that i grew up in a really natural way.

No one needs to educate kids about this.

[das müffin mann]

dude it is not unnatural
i can provide many many instances of homosexuality occurring much earlier than the roman empire
not to mention animal behavior...
although i will say this, i very much dislike the flamers-some of you might know what im talking about

[imperialreign]

Originally Posted by Katanai

All I can say is that most of you in this thread are wrong. I don't care about your opinions or those of others. I wouldn't even care about this subject matter if it was not for one thing: kids. It's one thing if you choose to sleep with another man, it's another thing if your state is telling you it's ok, yet another if you are allowed to get married and live together BUT when that same state allows you to adopt kids, that's where my friends I draw the line. It's your choice if you want to be gay but don't force it on innocent beings. And yeah don't even dare to tell me that a kid raised by two dads won't have issues. It's just fucked up! There are some limits that should never be crossed. This is one of those cases.

so - by that reasoning, shouldn't we also bar inter-racial couples from adopting? Or how about barring white parent's from adoting asian children, or black parent's from adopting white children . . .


or, how about, if one or both of two heterosexual, married adults should turn out to be infertile - we bar them from adopting. Hey, it must be God's will that one of them can't help to concieve a child, so then, God's reasoning must be that they shouldn't be allowed to parent a child, right?


Oh, but dang-it, I completely forgot that if a child is adopted by homosexuals, than they will learn from that behaviour and grow up gay as well, right?

So, doesn't that mean that if you take two heterosexual, adoptee parents, and should one of them be a prior convicted felon, or a terrorist, or cult leader . . . wouldn't you say it'd be safe to assume, then, that the adopted child would "learn" these behaviours as well? And you'd probably be right as these are life choices.

But what if the parent is obssesive compulsive, bi-polar, or clinically depressed? Damn, the adopted child must "learn" these behaviours as well, right? God forbid such things from being naturally occuring . . .



and don't get me started on emos - that's a whole other topic unto itself. I can't stand the bastards to begin with, and the vast majority of emos follow that sub-culture becuase they're trying to fit-in by not fitting in. The few that are genuine, come from effed up backgrounds, and in such case, they are only a product of their environment. That is the biggest problem I see with the generation under me, poor parenting.

Originally Posted by kid41212003

Do you think a kid can grow on his/her own in a properly way? Why there are parents and schools? A kid learn everything they see around them, they consumed it. Everything you said or taught your kids will affect his/her personalities. Friends, communities around them will influences them.

I rather not mention/telling about homosexual.
Why? When a kid asked you Is killing people wrong? And why soldiers kill people?
What will you tell them? Do you think they will able to understand?
Why there is a word "underage"?

So, If we grow a kid, in a way that already existed when human appeared in this earth.
A family with father and mother, grandma and grandpa. And then, If the kid want to go find a same sex partner, I will not interfere. Because he/she already old enough to understand and find their own happiness.

But, for starters, who's to say that there weren't homosexuals at the dawn of man - last I recall, man acended from, and is still part of the animal kingdom. We still fall prey to the same urges and instincts as our animal counterparts do, we've morally and mentally evolved past that.

But, again, as natural as heterosexual orientation is for some, so is homosexual orientation.



Secondly, just becuase you answer your child's questions as to sexuality, sprituality, war, god, or anything else they bring up - doesn't mean that it will send them down that path. Actually, it's better to answer their questions instead of ignoring them or making up answers that we think they can handle. Kids are a lot smarter than we are willing to give them credit for.

Besides, they will still develop their own personalities independant from our own, but they will follow our beliefs in right/wrong. Suppressing any "grey-area" subject matter will only encourage their interest and curiosity in learning more about it - if we treat it as social taboo, it only makes it that much more appealing.

This is a lil too far, I did not say that, I wasn't saying about the people in the relationship, I said the "relationship" between them.

Love exists in many and different ways. Love can exists between man or women. This is natural.
But the relationship between them isn't natural. It's not how the world works.
They can have their rights like many others.
But I don't want to be educate, influences by it.
If they want to go around telling people It's right, and It's natural. I will clearly say that, THEY ARE DOING WRONG THINGS.
And IF there are schools teaching kids about same sex relationship are wrong, they are WRONG too.

Once again, I said that same sex marriage/couple are not wrong, but it's un-natural.
And I don't want anything or anyone teaching my family or kids about any of this.
No one ever said same sex marriage is wrong to me, I understand this in my own way, and I believed that i grew up in a really natural way.

No one needs to educate kids about this.

show me one ancient document - go all the way back to when our ancestors were still writing in cuneiform and praying to Utu in their ziggerauts in the land of Babylon - hell, go further back than that, and find me one totally, wholly, undeniablly accepted document that states that male and female is the only natural order of existance for any living species.

For procreation, yes - but last I checked, humans don't copulate simply for procreation. Then again, neither do a lot of species of the animal kingdom.

Natural order than would dictate that copulation is meant only for the advancement of the species - but until such time as that is it's only intended reason, then there is nothing truly unnatural about homosexual orientation. Again, it's just as natural for them, as our heterosexual ways are for us.

Hell, who's to say that if homosexuality weren't more commonly practiced within the human race, that evolution wouldn't work out the rest? There are hundreds of animal species that will revert to homosexual orientation when there is a lack of opposite sexed partner for mating, and one of the two animals will actually change sex for mating.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by Katanai

All I can say is that most of you in this thread are wrong. I don't care about your opinions or those of others.

Originally Posted by Katanai

You are thinking in too narrow terms for me to have a real discussion with you now...

I think I just caught someone contradicting himself!

Again I reiterate, and Katanai has made my point, that limited discrimination is still discrimination. So do you believe that a child is worse off in a homosexual home than it would be in a home with abuse, drugs, or the like? If anything, a child raised in a homosexual home would most likely end up MORE tolerant and accepting of others. Just as a heterosexual couple can have a child that is homosexual, just because a child is raised in a homosexual home it doesn't mean they will end up the same way. You and your "friends" need to reconsider your position.

[ChromeDome]

you're either homosexual or you're not. its not about parents "teaching" kids anything. or schools

i am straight. if i grew up in a married same sex household or my parents tried to teach me to be "gay" or school did or they told me it was "ok" to be married to a same sex partner i wouldn't be any less straight. that is preposterous. how is not allowing same sex couples to be married "protecting children?"

in that case I need protection, too. because if its legal, hey, I MIGHT TURN GAY

that is just silly

and i believe a homosexual household can bring up a child as well as a traditional one. isn't Dick Cheney's daughter adopting, if she hasn't already?

hey, thats good enough for me

[rampage]

im all for gay/lesbian marrage, what some one dose in there personal life is there business, im maily for it for one reason, could you imadgen being at work and you get a call from the hospital because a child is in a serious conditionhas given them your phone number, but because you are in a gay relationship and not a parrent or legal guardian just a partner of the childs mother/father you have no legal consent on what happens/ dosnt not happen, even indagin if you were religious and they were going to do somthign that broke your religion and you could do nothing about it how would you feel then, if gay marrage fixes all this then why not let it be..

the whole argument the being gay is unnatural is a 1900's way of looking at things, if you looking animal behavious you will see homosexuality throughout the animal kingdom, so its just as natural and straight sex... its all in the eye of the beholder and how one has been raised ... i

getting married is not a religios thing anymore, its more traditional thing then anything, 9 out of ten people that i know who are married are married because they love each other and its a way of showing that they want to be with each outher for ever and couldnt give 2 shits about the religious side of it...

i can understand some people view on gay/lesbian couples not being able to addopt, but hey i dont see how they will be bad parrents, its no different to one partner already having a child to begin with, ..... it all boils down to the parrenting and living conditions as how the child will grow up...

as for the heated debait raging in here i think i have already covered why it is so, ITS ALL HOW WE HAVE BEEN RAISED AND CONDITIONED, so every one is entiteld to ther own thoughts and what they say, but just because you dont believe in somthing dose not mean other should be punnised and baned from doing what ever it may be you are opposed to....

fuck its a free world you should be able to do what you want as long it dose not pose a physicl or mental danger to anyone else, if you want to be in a gay marrage, do it, if you want to do drugs, do it, if you want to drive your car at 250 kmph, do it.. just do it some where in a manner that wont hurt other (eg race on a race track and dont get fucked out of your mind on coke and drive the wrong way done a free-way and head on into a bus of school kids)


END RANT

[Ahhzz]

Originally Posted by Katanai

All I can say is that most of you in this thread are wrong. I don't care about your opinions or those of others. I wouldn't even care about this subject matter if it was not for one thing: kids. It's one thing if you choose to sleep with another man, it's another thing if your state is telling you it's ok, yet another if you are allowed to get married and live together BUT when that same state allows you to adopt kids, that's where my friends I draw the line. It's your choice if you want to be gay but don't force it on innocent beings. And yeah don't even dare to tell me that a kid raised by two dads won't have issues. It's just fucked up! There are some limits that should never be crossed. This is one of those cases.

Yeah, 'cause no kid that was raised by a man and woman living in holy wedlock EVER went wrong....

[lemonadesoda]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

That video is the biggest load of crap I've ever seen. Limited discrimination is still discrimination. People need to realize that marriage is not solely a religious institution anymore. Is there a place on your taxes where you can file as a domestic partnership? Many companies do not recognize domestic partnerships when it comes to things like health insurance coverage.

Discrimination, I'm against it. There should be NO SUCH THING AS TAX DISCRIMINATION NO MATTER WHAT YOUR "PARTNER" STATUS IS. Why all this discrimination against single people? Why do "partner" get free rides? Discrimination again.

Personally, if marriage makes a "couple" "one" then let them have ONE vote.

I bet that would shut a lot of people up. No, it's all based on free-riders. "We want our free ride too" mentality.

Clean up the system. Make it simple. REMOVE discrimination. Dont ADD to it.

[Ahhzz]

Aww...come on...you don't think Separate but Equal is a viable option?? hmm...wonder what would happen if all those 'hyphen-Americans' that believe that we owe them something because of past discrimination had someone point out to them how hard they are trying to set themselves apart from Americans with that exact mindset....Separate but Equal..... Yeah.....