*** F@H Tech Assistance Thread *** - Page 15

thebluebumblebee · Oct 15, 2009, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perra

I'd think so yes, running at 705ppd at the moment...

This is where ATI has an advantage. You can go into CCC and watch how busy the card is. You are not aiming for 100% usage, but something in the low 90's would be good. Bad thing is that those EV settings can be different for different size WU's. You just have to find a happy median. Good luck.

NastyHabits · Oct 15, 2009, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Ion]

Unfortunately, the client for ATI cards currently isn't very good, it uses a lot of the CPU. There is no way to get around this as far as I know, you just have to deal with it

I'm folding on one of my PCs using the console client with a 4850 and use 3% CPU at most. Here's my environment variables:

BROOK_YIELD 2
CAL_NO_FLUSH 1
CAL_PRE_FLUSH 1
FLUSH_INTERVAL 128

I still only get 2200~2800 depending on the project.

Perra · Oct 16, 2009, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NastyHabits

I'm folding on one of my PCs using the console client with a 4850 and use 3% CPU at most. Here's my environment variables:

BROOK_YIELD 2
CAL_NO_FLUSH 1
CAL_PRE_FLUSH 1
FLUSH_INTERVAL 128

I still only get 2200~2800 depending on the project.

Thanks! I had missed CAL_PRE_FLUSH, now my ppd is around 1745 and still rising

niko084 · Oct 17, 2009, 01:19 PM

So if what I am reading looks right, it's not worth clocking my 4850 for folding because I can't control the shader clock?

Secondly, anyone know how long it takes them to show your stats, I recently started folding due to slacking off for years getting it setup, been doing it for the last 3 days on 6 machines which have all finished multiple projects and well within their deadlines and I can't find my name anywhere on the status or team profiles....

NastyHabits · Oct 17, 2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niko084

So if what I am reading looks right, it's not worth clocking my 4850 for folding because I can't control the shader clock?
(

Not correct. The problem is with the ATI work units Stanford makes for ATI cards. The algorithms for ATI cards are old and don't take advantage of the ATI cards abilities. This will probably change within the coming year, as Stanford plans on adding OpenCL support to the OpenMM development tools they use. My explanation is probably over-simplified, but essentially correct. (I think).

Also, even though a similar Nvidia card will out perform the equivalent ATI card by almost 3 to 1, your 4850 will outperform the CPU client by 6 to 1.

For example I have one PC with a GTS 250 at around 6200-6900 PPD, another PC with my 4850 gets around 2100-2500 PPD, and if I run a CPU client I get around 300-350 PPD.

No matter how great or small your daily output, we appreciate every PPD and WU contributed by all TPU folding members.

thebluebumblebee · Oct 17, 2009, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niko084

So if what I am reading looks right, it's not worth clocking my 4850 for folding because I can't control the shader clock?

Secondly, anyone know how long it takes them to show your stats, I recently started folding due to slacking off for years getting it setup, been doing it for the last 3 days on 6 machines which have all finished multiple projects and well within their deadlines and I can't find my name anywhere on the status or team profiles....

I can't find you anywhere either. Are you Folding with user niko084? Sorta sounds like you didn't put your username and team in when setting up the client(s). FAHmon will indicate that info.

niko084 · Oct 17, 2009, 03:36 PM

I think you misunderstood me, I'm running the ATI client, but I don't know if it's faster if I leave my clock up or if I knock it back down.

Generally I leave it 315/500 but when I clock it up it goes to 745/1050 I know people clock the shaders on their Nvidia cards to fold faster, so I was more curious if I should leave my card clocked at 745/1050 or if it wont make a difference so I can just drop it?

I think I figured out why my scores haven't been updating though, checked the logs, all the machines fail about 10 times before they actually send the data.

I get no data from FAHMon, it shows it, shows the work but gives me no results as to PPD.
Yes I'm folding under Niko084 and I entered it on all the machines and the team number and I even created a passkey just to make sure that wasn't the issue..

Now that I saw the errors, I'll wait it out another day and see what happens.

thebluebumblebee · Oct 17, 2009, 03:39 PM

can you post a screen shot of FAHmon for us?

bogmali · Oct 17, 2009, 03:54 PM

This is where my knowledge limitation comes in (when it comes to ATI cards)

......Stan Hemi and Mmaakk are the experts on this......Speaking of which, anybody heard from my buddy Mmaakk?

thebluebumblebee · Oct 17, 2009, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bogmali

Speaking of which, anybody heard from my buddy Mmaakk?

Can you imagine his surprise when he comes back?

bogmali · Oct 17, 2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebluebumblebee

Can you imagine his surprise when he comes back?

No kidding.......I can't wait to talk shit to 'em

niko084 · Oct 17, 2009, 04:04 PM

My machine is torn down but I can pretty much describe it.

The box on the left is Yellow, it shows progress %, the name, ETA is 0mn, PPD is 0.00, shows the core the PRCG, the credit, and downloaded and deadline times.

thebluebumblebee · Oct 17, 2009, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niko084

My machine is torn down but I can pretty much describe it.

The box on the left is Yellow, it shows progress %, the name, ETA is 0mn, PPD is 0.00, shows the core the PRCG, the credit, and downloaded and deadline times.

Tell us what one of the download/deadline times are, please.

niko084 · Oct 17, 2009, 04:19 PM

29 November 01:54

This is a problem on every single system I have setup with the GPU client, for Nvidia or ATI...
The standard CPU clients show everything fine.

thebluebumblebee · Oct 17, 2009, 04:20 PM

niko084, you have stats! http://fah-web.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/...ername=Niko084

And don't worry about the clocks on the ATI video card. I have a 4830, which is know for its ability to overclock, and I did overclock it, but it really didn't make that big of a difference. Shaders on Nvidia, now that's a different story.

niko084 · Oct 17, 2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebluebumblebee

niko084, you have stats! http://fah-web.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/...ername=Niko084

And don't worry about the clocks on the ATI video card. I have a 4830, which is know for its ability to overclock, and I did overclock it, but it really didn't make that big of a difference. Shaders on Nvidia, now that's a different story.

Sweet it's about time... LOL

Anyways, here is the screenshot of my FahMon.

Sorry for the poor quality, I'm stuck on fresh build systems here.

NastyHabits · Oct 17, 2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niko084

I think you misunderstood me, I'm running the ATI client, but I don't know if it's faster if I leave my clock up or if I knock it back down.

Generally I leave it 315/500 but when I clock it up it goes to 745/1050 I know people clock the shaders on their Nvidia cards to fold faster, so I was more curious if I should leave my card clocked at 745/1050 or if it wont make a difference so I can just drop it?

We simply can't clock the shaders on ATI cards. They're also implemented differently. Overclocking an ATI card will make a difference. Especially the core, the memory not so much. You will probably have to clock it a little more conservatively than simply going for the max stable clocks as if you were benching or going for a personal best on 3DMark 06 for example.

My 4850 will go to 690/1150, but I clock it at 650/1000 for folding.

[Ion] · Oct 17, 2009, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niko084

Sweet it's about time... LOL

Anyways, here is the screenshot of my FahMon.

Sorry for the poor quality, I'm stuck on fresh build systems here.

You should be able to get about 1500 PPD if you overclock. My friend had an OCed 8600GTS (also 32 shaders) that he got about 1300-1800 PPD on.

Laurijan · Oct 17, 2009, 06:45 PM

I have folded for several days now with my GPU and my CPU at the same time..

I use the client
Windows XP/2003/Vista Console client only zip file (with Windows-service-install option) for CPU
and the client
Windows: V6 GPU2 (ATI 2xxx, 3xxx, 4xxx; nVidia) clients Windows XP/2003/Vista GPU System tray client (installer msi) for GPU

Now i downloaded FahMon but it only shows PPD for the CPU client even though both clients have run for many hours now

Pic:

What is wrong?

niko084 · Oct 17, 2009, 06:50 PM

Erm, now I have been failing to get work for the last hour or so..

pbmaster · Oct 18, 2009, 10:51 PM

I can't seem to get the SMP client to work. I followed the instructions in the guide, and got the message twice, but it just sits at 0%..same thing it did when I tried this last time.

thebluebumblebee · Oct 19, 2009, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbmaster

I can't seem to get the SMP client to work. I followed the instructions in the guide, and got the message twice, but it just sits at 0%..same thing it did when I tried this last time.

Does task manager show that your system is busy? Folding on the CPU is a slow process.

pbmaster · Oct 19, 2009, 12:52 AM

Yeah I realized that now. It just took longer to get from that initial percent. Going fine now, thanks.

I do have one question though, should my CPU have a higher PPD than my GPU? Cause right now it does

niko084 · Oct 19, 2009, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbmaster

Yeah I realized that now. It just took longer to get from that initial percent. Going fine now, thanks.

I do have one question though, should my CPU have a higher PPD than my GPU? Cause right now it does

Doesn't surprise me, I think my 4850 holds me around 2.5k ppd or something, not sure what my cpu can do but I have E5200's at stock 2.5 doing about 800ppd I believe. I'll have to check these later.

So that being said a well overclocked quad can probably crank some points compared to an ATI card.

pbmaster · Oct 19, 2009, 02:45 AM

My CPU is getting over 1800 PPD right now and my 4890 is only getting 1600. Doh!

System Name:	Current/NEW!
Processor:	AMD Athlon 64 X2-4400+/i7-2600K
Motherboard:	Gigabyte GA-K8NS Ultra-939/GA-P67A-UD4-B3
Cooling:	OCZ Vendetta/H80
Memory:	2GB DDR-400/8GB Corsair DDR3 1600
Video Card:	RADEON 9800 PRO AGP/2x GB GTX 560 Ti
Hard Disk:	Seagate 160GB IDE/120GB Samsung 830 & Seagate 2TB
Optical Drive:	LITE-ON DVDRW LH-20A1L/Pioneer DVR-219LBK
CRT/LCD Model:	Samsung SyncMaster B1940/Asus 24' LED
Case:	Ever Case E4252WSF-F/Antec P280 It's huge!
Sound Card:	SB Audigy 2 ZS/on board
PSU:	Corsair VX550/SeaSonic S12II 620
Software:	XP MCE SP3/Win 7 Home Premiun 64 Bit
Benchmarks:	Are you kidding?/3DMark11 basic P8681

System Name:	Fido
Processor:	Intel i7 930
Motherboard:	ASUS Rampage Gene II
Cooling:	Swiftech XT
Memory:	6 GB OCZ DDR3 PC3-12800 / 1600MHz
Video Card:	EVGA GTX 260
Hard Disk:	WD 36 GB Raptor (2 in Raid 0)
Optical Drive:	Benq DVD LightScribe DW1655, Samsung DVD-ROM
CRT/LCD Model:	Samsung SyncMaster 205BW
Case:	Gigabyte GZ-X2
Sound Card:	AuzenTech Xplosion
PSU:	Corsair HX650
Software:	Windows 7 64 ibit

Processor:	Intel Core i7 3930k
Motherboard:	ASUS Rampage IV Extreme
Cooling:	Custom built watercooling
Memory:	32Gigs of Corsair Vengeance LP White 1600
Video Card:	XFX Radeon HD5870
Hard Disk:	WD Velociraptor 300Gb, Corsair Force GT 120Gb
Optical Drive:	Nope
CRT/LCD Model:	Samsung T220 22" + Benq T905 19" + Samsung 930BF 19"
Case:	Heavily modded p182
Sound Card:	Realtek something or other
PSU:	Corsair 600w
Software:	Windows 8 Pro x64

Oct 17, 2009, 01:19 PM	#354
niko084 Eligible for custom title Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,387 (2.70/day) Thanks: 190 Thanked 739 Times in 599 Posts System Specs	So if what I am reading looks right, it's not worth clocking my 4850 for folding because I can't control the shader clock? Secondly, anyone know how long it takes them to show your stats, I recently started folding due to slacking off for years getting it setup, been doing it for the last 3 days on 6 machines which have all finished multiple projects and well within their deadlines and I can't find my name anywhere on the status or team profiles.... __________________ This electronic post is encrypted in the 'English language method', any attempt to decipher meaning from these symbols is a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998. This includes, but is not limited to: interpreting the symbols through use of biological, visual decryption devices, translating the symbols into another language encryption scheme, and digital processing the symbols into a form conducive to oral interpretation. HWBOT HEATWARE

Processor:	Intel i7 3770K @ 3.5ghz
Motherboard:	Asus P8P67 Pro
Cooling:	CoolIt Eco120 (Push/Pull A.C. 120mm)
Memory:	4x4GB Gskill Sniper @ 9-9-9-24 1600mhz
Video Card:	HD7850 1150/1200
Hard Disk:	240GB Hyper-X 3k SSD, 2x WD Black 640 Raid 1
Optical Drive:	Sony/NEC AD-7241S
CRT/LCD Model:	Asus VE228H 21.5 1920x1080
Case:	Antec 300
Sound Card:	Focusrite Saffire PRO 14 -> Mackie MR8 Monitors
PSU:	Seasonic SS520-GB 520W
Software:	Windows 7 Pro x64

Oct 17, 2009, 03:36 PM	#357
niko084 Eligible for custom title Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,387 (2.70/day) Thanks: 190 Thanked 739 Times in 599 Posts System Specs	I think you misunderstood me, I'm running the ATI client, but I don't know if it's faster if I leave my clock up or if I knock it back down. Generally I leave it 315/500 but when I clock it up it goes to 745/1050 I know people clock the shaders on their Nvidia cards to fold faster, so I was more curious if I should leave my card clocked at 745/1050 or if it wont make a difference so I can just drop it? I think I figured out why my scores haven't been updating though, checked the logs, all the machines fail about 10 times before they actually send the data. I get no data from FAHMon, it shows it, shows the work but gives me no results as to PPD. Yes I'm folding under Niko084 and I entered it on all the machines and the team number and I even created a passkey just to make sure that wasn't the issue.. Now that I saw the errors, I'll wait it out another day and see what happens. __________________ This electronic post is encrypted in the 'English language method', any attempt to decipher meaning from these symbols is a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998. This includes, but is not limited to: interpreting the symbols through use of biological, visual decryption devices, translating the symbols into another language encryption scheme, and digital processing the symbols into a form conducive to oral interpretation. HWBOT HEATWARE

Oct 17, 2009, 03:39 PM	#358
thebluebumblebee Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Portland, OR USA Posts: 2,143 (1.20/day) Thanks: 1,559 Thanked 884 Times in 628 Posts System Specs	can you post a screen shot of FAHmon for us?

Oct 17, 2009, 03:54 PM	#359
bogmali In Orbe Terrum Non Visi Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Olympia, WA Posts: 6,041 (3.19/day) Thanks: 1,194 Thanked 4,109 Times in 2,080 Posts System Specs	This is where my knowledge limitation comes in (when it comes to ATI cards)......Stan Hemi and Mmaakk are the experts on this......Speaking of which, anybody heard from my buddy Mmaakk? __________________ “I have pretty much own every card known to man. what should I use?” -W1zzard “I quit smoking pot a while ago.. but not today” -erocker HEATWARE My F/S Thread

System Name:	Main/Server
Processor:	Core i7-3820 @4.0Ghz/i7-2600K
Motherboard:	Gigabyte X79-UD3/Gigabyte Z68A-D3H-B3
Cooling:	Corsair H70/CoolIt Vantage ALC
Memory:	Samsung MV-3V4G3D/US DDR3-1600 4X4GB/Kingston KVR16N11K2/16 2X8GB
Video Card:	MSI GTX660ti Power Edition/EVGA GTX-680
Hard Disk:	Samsung 830 256GB SSD, Seagate 320GB/Samsung 840 256GB SSD, 2 WD Green 1.5TB
Optical Drive:	Samsung DVD/LG DVD-RW/NEC DVD-RW ND-3540A
CRT/LCD Model:	LG Flatron E2350V
Case:	Antec Eleven Hundred/Rocketfish Case (Lian-Li made)
Sound Card:	Onboard
PSU:	Enermax Infinity 720W/Rosewill Xtreme 950W
Software:	Win7 Ultimate 64 /Win7 Professional
Benchmarks:	Xbox Live Gamertag=jondonken

Oct 17, 2009, 04:04 PM	#362
niko084 Eligible for custom title Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,387 (2.70/day) Thanks: 190 Thanked 739 Times in 599 Posts System Specs	My machine is torn down but I can pretty much describe it. The box on the left is Yellow, it shows progress %, the name, ETA is 0mn, PPD is 0.00, shows the core the PRCG, the credit, and downloaded and deadline times. __________________ This electronic post is encrypted in the 'English language method', any attempt to decipher meaning from these symbols is a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998. This includes, but is not limited to: interpreting the symbols through use of biological, visual decryption devices, translating the symbols into another language encryption scheme, and digital processing the symbols into a form conducive to oral interpretation. HWBOT HEATWARE

Oct 17, 2009, 04:19 PM	#364
niko084 Eligible for custom title Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,387 (2.70/day) Thanks: 190 Thanked 739 Times in 599 Posts System Specs	29 November 01:54 This is a problem on every single system I have setup with the GPU client, for Nvidia or ATI... The standard CPU clients show everything fine. __________________ This electronic post is encrypted in the 'English language method', any attempt to decipher meaning from these symbols is a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998. This includes, but is not limited to: interpreting the symbols through use of biological, visual decryption devices, translating the symbols into another language encryption scheme, and digital processing the symbols into a form conducive to oral interpretation. HWBOT HEATWARE

Oct 17, 2009, 04:20 PM	#365
thebluebumblebee Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Portland, OR USA Posts: 2,143 (1.20/day) Thanks: 1,559 Thanked 884 Times in 628 Posts System Specs	niko084, you have stats! http://fah-web.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/...ername=Niko084 And don't worry about the clocks on the ATI video card. I have a 4830, which is know for its ability to overclock, and I did overclock it, but it really didn't make that big of a difference. Shaders on Nvidia, now that's a different story.

System Name:	Peenemunde/Salzburg/Osnabruck/Rostock/
Processor:	i7-860 @ 2.9GHz / i7-2700k @ 4.4GHz / i7-920 @ 3.83GHz / Core i3-2100
Motherboard:	Asus Maximus III Gene / Asus Maximus IV Gene / EVGA X58 SLI / Asus P8H77-I
Cooling:	Xigmatek Gaia / Xigmatek Gaia / Antec H2O-620 / Stock
Memory:	4x2GB G.SKILL / 2x4GB Crucial / 1x2GB Corsair / 2x4GB G.SKILL
Video Card:	Powercolor HD7930 / PNY GTX470 + nV GTX470 SLI / 3x MSI Radeon HD7770 GHz Edition / Sapphire HD7950
Hard Disk:	Western Digital 320GB / Western Digital 320GB / Western Digital 250GB / 320GB
Optical Drive:	None
CRT/LCD Model:	Asus VH242H (23.6")
Case:	None / NZXT Source 210 / NZXT Source 210 / Cooler Master Elite 120
Sound Card:	Onboard
PSU:	Antec TruePower New 650w / Antec TPN 650w / Antec Earthwatts 650w / Antec 430w
Software:	Windows 7 Professional x64

Oct 17, 2009, 06:45 PM	#369
Laurijan Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oulu, Finland Posts: 1,935 (0.84/day) Thanks: 270 Thanked 352 Times in 282 Posts System Specs	I have folded for several days now with my GPU and my CPU at the same time.. I use the client Windows XP/2003/Vista Console client only zip file (with Windows-service-install option) for CPU and the client Windows: V6 GPU2 (ATI 2xxx, 3xxx, 4xxx; nVidia) clients Windows XP/2003/Vista GPU System tray client (installer msi) for GPU Now i downloaded FahMon but it only shows PPD for the CPU client even though both clients have run for many hours now Pic: What is wrong? __________________ If you want to quit smoking tobacco this is a must see: ☆☆☆The Electronic-Cigarette Club☆☆☆ @ GN.net Laurijan´s Heat My worldwide sales thread

System Name:	Enslaver :)
Processor:	Intel i5 3570K Ivy Bridge
Motherboard:	ASRock Z77 Extreme4
Cooling:	CPU: Noctua NH-D14, Case: 4x12cm Noctua
Memory:	8GB DDR3 Samsung 30nm MV-3V4G3
Video Card:	ASUS GTX560Ti DirectCUII TOP 1GB
Hard Disk:	OCZ Agility 3 120GB SSD for OS, Seagte internal 500GB Download-cache, Seagate external 2TB for Media
Optical Drive:	Samsung DVD-RW/RAM, LG DVD-RW/RAM
CRT/LCD Model:	Samsung UE40D6200 Full-HD 3D LED LCD TV
Case:	Antec P182, Gunmetal Black Edition
Sound Card:	Razer Barracuda AC-1 soundcard, Logitech Z-5450 5.1 speakers
PSU:	Termaltake Thoughpower 750W, Cable management
Software:	Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 x64

Oct 17, 2009, 06:50 PM	#370
niko084 Eligible for custom title Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,387 (2.70/day) Thanks: 190 Thanked 739 Times in 599 Posts System Specs	Erm, now I have been failing to get work for the last hour or so.. __________________ This electronic post is encrypted in the 'English language method', any attempt to decipher meaning from these symbols is a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998. This includes, but is not limited to: interpreting the symbols through use of biological, visual decryption devices, translating the symbols into another language encryption scheme, and digital processing the symbols into a form conducive to oral interpretation. HWBOT HEATWARE

Oct 18, 2009, 10:51 PM	#371
pbmaster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 1,985 (0.80/day) Thanks: 131 Thanked 295 Times in 275 Posts System Specs	I can't seem to get the SMP client to work. I followed the instructions in the guide, and got the message twice, but it just sits at 0%..same thing it did when I tried this last time. __________________ “pbmaster your tongue in your mouth speaks the truth” -von kain

Processor:	AMD Phenom II 955
Motherboard:	Asus Crosshair III Formula
Cooling:	Cooler Master V8 CPU cooler, 120 mm and 200 mm exhaust, 3 x 120 mm intake
Memory:	4 GB OCZ DDR3 1600
Video Card:	Sapphire Radeon HD 4890
Hard Disk:	Western Digital 500 GB Blacks in RAID 0/ Wesdtern Digital SE16 250 GB
Optical Drive:	Lite-On SATA DVD Burner
CRT/LCD Model:	Acer 19" widescreen
Case:	Antec Nine Hundred
Sound Card:	Supreme X-Fi
PSU:	Seasonic M12 SS-700HM
Software:	Windows Vista Home Premium x64 SP2
Benchmarks:	3dMark 03-~62k 3dMark 05-~22k 3dMark 06-18268

Oct 19, 2009, 12:52 AM	#373
pbmaster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 1,985 (0.80/day) Thanks: 131 Thanked 295 Times in 275 Posts System Specs	Yeah I realized that now. It just took longer to get from that initial percent. Going fine now, thanks. I do have one question though, should my CPU have a higher PPD than my GPU? Cause right now it does __________________ “pbmaster your tongue in your mouth speaks the truth” -von kain Last edited by pbmaster; Oct 19, 2009 at 01:58 AM.

Oct 19, 2009, 02:45 AM	#375
pbmaster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 1,985 (0.80/day) Thanks: 131 Thanked 295 Times in 275 Posts System Specs	My CPU is getting over 1800 PPD right now and my 4890 is only getting 1600. Doh! __________________ “pbmaster your tongue in your mouth speaks the truth” -von kain

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