Newbie question: Intel=NVIDIA? Low-level steam gaming build.

[Phaewryn]

I need to build a slightly better pc for Steam gaming, and I'm only seeking minor stepping up from my current internet browsing machine which "almost" runs it (still debating if I need an i5 or if a fast i3 will do, I think it will - just trying to stop steam from crashing mid-game). But, I know not a thing about video cards. The one thing I do know is that that UpdatusUser ghost user account NVIDIA creates/keeps on my current machine annoys me. So... are there any other solid/dependable options for video cards for intel-based machines that don't do that, or is NVIDIA (and that ghost user account) the only option?

To be clear, I have no idea what I am doing. I don't even know the proper terminology to ask this question. But I guess what I need to know is can you put AMD (or ATI, or are there OTHER "brands" not showing up in newegg?) video cards into Intel-based machines? And what part (term, thingie) is the NVIDIA part, so I know what I'm trying to ask here? CHIPSET? Is that what I'm trying to ask? Other video chipsets? (sorry, but I don't know until someone teaches me)

If it matters, I'm just trying to play Rising World on Steam without lag and random crashing, and the machine that I am currently using from is an Intel Core Duo @ 2.93GHz with a GeForce 9800GT @ 512MB GGDR3 running Windows 7 32bit with 4GB RAM (fine for internet, but not good enough for steam games - it was never built to run games, at the time I had no interest in gaming).
If it helps to know what parts I have picked out as solid possibilities in the new machine so far I'm leaning towards Gigabyte's GA-Z97X-UD3H-BK board, and either an Intel Core i3-4370 Dual-Core @ 3.8GHz or Intel Core i5-4690K Quad-Core @ 3.5GHz, and I plan to install Windows 7 Pro 64 bit on it. No other decisions have been made yet, video card seemed like the next logical step. I am trying to stay near a $600 budget total. If you'd be so kind as to throw a few options/ideas my way for me to google (or tell me it's not possible, that works too), it would be much appreciated. All the "top video cards" lists show all NVIDIA cards for Intel machines, so IF there's another option, I'd like to know.

 

[BiggieShady]

I would suggest i5 because games are finally beginning to use 4 cores fully, the board you chose is really nice.
You need to buy 2 sticks of 8 GB of DDR3 memory (two to take advantage of dual channel memory controller that CPU has, 16 GB total RAM is plenty - you could get by 8GB total but it's better to go for 16GB). What speed? I'd choose 1600 if you are not overclocking, or go for faster if the price is right - the board certainly supports it.
For graphics card I'd suggest Nvidia GTX 970, it's a good match for a balanced system, not too pricey and great for 1080p screens.
You may want to get an aftermarket CPU cooler or reuse what you have if it fits, because stock cooler is barely enough for that CPU.
You may keep the case, power supply and storage.
Good luck, someone less lazy than me will compose part picker list soon enough.

 

[MxPhenom 216]

What's the budget because an i3 4160 is a solid processor for a budget gaming build. Pair it with something like a r9 270x or go up to gtx960 and it would be a solid build.

No point in getting the i3 43xx chips if you have a discrete GPU.

 

[Phaewryn]

Trying to aim for under $600 ideally, assuming I can scavenge a few parts on the cheap/free or out of old machine. For example, going to rip my high end fans out of current rig, etc. The i5 is really pushing my budget hard, but if I could find a decent video card at a sale price, maybe. I also don't mind waiting/pouncing on sales and this taking several months one piece at a time (the more I crash on this one, and the more parts I have "waiting" here for "the rest of it" the more determined I will become). I'll be honest, I always aim for $600, but end up closer to $800 on most of my big purchases. I have a disposable income of about $150 a month and no savings, so the cheaper, the sooner. Something I *could* run on the stock cooler for a while, until I have save another month or two for a better cooler, etc, little things like that would help.

Anyone else with NON-NVIDIA card suggestions that cost under $180? All it needs to do is keep up with the rabbits I am trying to pickaxe to death without crashing/lagging. My boyfriend's machine runs the game flawlessly, it's frustrating to come home to my own machine.

 

[Bronan]

I got the idea it might be the drives and gpu being more important than the cpu being the limit.
Gamewise your not asking too much i think unless your running heavy toys
So i kinda think either the gpu or the drive being slow is the issue, the advice given by MXphenom216 is what i would try todo. If you wait a bit you can scoop up alot of nice second hand hardware soon.
Given the fact that nvidia launched the 980ti and amd soon gonna show us the 3xx series we hope
If your pc has not enough memory its also a good reason to be slow. For example a friend asked me to look at his system because it was crawling slow, after 2 seconds i saw why ... a win 8 machine have 2 Gb mem is asking for it to make a grinding halt and swapping constant to disk.
Use a program like the freeware tool : Speccy and show us what it says about your system.

 

[Phaewryn]

Not nearly enough ram in this machine, but the board is maxed out, it's at its upper limit at 4GB. It's an old machine, had it 5 years, and wasn't new tech when made. I am running heavy toys: DisplayFusion, fl.ux, Malwarebytes, Advanced Systemcare. I kill fl.ux and malwarebytes, and half of Systemcare to run Steam, but it makes me on edge being on steam/online and my protections off, and Steam still crashes. Thus, new machine idea. You're right, I could recycle some of this machine, though. But if I have to rip it down to the motherboard, I *hate* the idea of putting my old stuff on a new board, and my board is my limiting factor at this point. I could try putting in a newer drive, this one is cranking and grinding like mad every time it crashes the game... but every time I change anything on this machine, I have to put about a week into "fixing" it again. I have a lot of customization invested in it, so I'd like to just keep it as a second machine, and build a new one to game on, as this one is *perfect* for everything except gaming. I have it *exactly* how I want it (for web browsing). I suppose I could have a disabled service or such that's also a factor, I have this machine really tweaked. It's basically experimental, customized and successful, I hate to mess it up. I've spent a LOT of time in it flipping switches - years of "try this" "change that". It has sentimental value far beyond its usability.

I got the idea it might be the drives and gpu being more important than the cpu being the limit.
Gamewise your not asking too much i think unless your running heavy toys
So i kinda think either the gpu or the drive being slow is the issue, the advice given by MXphenom216 is what i would try todo. If you wait a bit you can scoop up alot of nice second hand hardware soon.
Given the fact that nvidia launched the 980ti and amd soon gonna show us the 3xx series we hope
If your pc has not enough memory its also a good reason to be slow. For example a friend asked me to look at his system because it was crawling slow, after 2 seconds i saw why ... a win 8 machine have 2 Gb mem is asking for it to make a grinding halt and swapping constant to disk.
Use a program like the freeware tool : Speccy and show us what it says about your system.

 

[Phaewryn]

Brands on video cards... does it matter much? There's a Sapphire 100364L Radeon R9 270X 2GB in my specs/price range, but not all great reviews on newegg.

Also, what's the difference between the 270X and the 270 without the X? Do I need the X? Because there are several more (various brands) in my price range without the X.

 

[kn00tcn]

so i dont understand what's wrong with nvidia, i have never heard of a ghost user account (i also DONT install geforce experience or anything extra, always driver+physx), you should be able to remove it https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3067/~/what-is-nvidia-’updatususer’?

a 9800gt IS for gaming... older ones at least, maybe not good for this game

let's see, if we estimate... $230 4690k (or non k if you want to save a bit & are sure you wont overclock), $80 ddr3 8gb, $140 mobo.... hmm well you can wiggle everything but the cpu to see what's left over for gfx, i probably overestimated the ram & mobo

sales are good, patience is good, but you should at least be able to test the part you got, for example if you get a mobo, you cant test it without a cpu+ram & you need to know if it works in case you have to return it

speaking of 'old', what if you got a used parts? good ones of course, i7 only

 

[Phaewryn]

Use a program like the freeware tool : Speccy and show us what it says about your system.

To be clear, this is the specs for the computer I seek to replace (because they were asked for and if it's an obvious problem I can fix easily, it's worthwhile):

System Information Report
General
Operating System Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium
Central Processor Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E7500 @ 2.93GHz

Graphics
Video Adapter NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GT
Video Memory 512.00 MB
Screen Resolution 1920 x 1080
Storage
Total Memory 3.50 GB
Free Memory 1.03 GB
Total Hard disk 931.41 GB
Free Hard disk 602.41 GB
Operating System
OS Name Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium
OS Version 6.1.7601
Service Pack 1.0
Product ID 00359-OEM-8703163-89507
System Up Time Wednesday, 06/03/2015 10:43:27 AM
Internet Explorer Version 10.0.9200.17357
Microsoft DirectX Version DirectX 11
OpenGL Version 6.1.7600.16385 (win7_rtm.090713-1255)

Central Processor
CPU Name Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E7500 @ 2.93GHz
Code Name N/A
Manufacturer GenuineIntel
Current Clock Speed 2933 Mhz
Max Clock Speed 2933 Mhz
Voltage 1V
External Clock 266 Mhz
Serial Number BFEBFBFF0001067A
CPU ID x64 Family 6 Model 23 Stepping 10
Socket Designation Socket 775
Internal Cache 64 KB
External Cache 3072 KB
Motherboard
Model EP43-UD3L
Manufacturer Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd.
Serial Number
BIOS Name Award Modular BIOS v6.00PG
BIOS Vendor Award Software International, Inc.
SMBIOS Version F9
BIOS Date Thursday, 04/22/2010
Video Adapter
Name NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GT
Video Processor GeForce 9800 GT
Manufacturer NVIDIA
Video Architecture VGA
DAC Type Integrated RAMDAC
Memory Size 512.00 MB
Memory Type Unknown
Video Mode 1920 x 1080 x 4294967296 colors
Current Refresh Rate 60 Hz
Driver Version 9.18.13.4144
Driver Date Tuesday, 02/03/2015
Memory Resource
Total Memory 3.50 GB
Used Memory 2.46 GB
Free Memory 1.03 GB
Memory Usage 70%
Physical Memory
Memory Bank Bank0/1
Description Physical Memory 0
Device Locator A0
Capacity 1.00 GB
Speed 800 Mhz
Manufacturer
Data Width 64 bit
Memory Type Unknown
Form Factor DIMM
Physical Memory
Memory Bank Bank2/3
Description Physical Memory 1
Device Locator A1
Capacity 1.00 GB
Speed 800 Mhz
Manufacturer
Data Width 64 bit
Memory Type Unknown
Form Factor DIMM
Physical Memory
Memory Bank Bank4/5
Description Physical Memory 2
Device Locator A2
Capacity 1.00 GB
Speed 800 Mhz
Manufacturer
Data Width 64 bit
Memory Type Unknown
Form Factor DIMM
Physical Memory
Memory Bank Bank6/7
Description Physical Memory 3
Device Locator A3
Capacity 1.00 GB
Speed 800 Mhz
Manufacturer
Data Width 64 bit
Memory Type Unknown
Form Factor DIMM
Disk Drives
Name Hitachi HDS721010CLA332 ATA Device
Media Type Fixed hard disk media
Capability 931.51 GB
Interface Type IDE
Partitions 2
Total Cylinders 129201
Total Heads 240
Total Sectors 1953519120
Total Tracks 31008240
Tracks Per Cylinder 240
Bytes Per Sector 512
Sectors Per Track 63
S.M.A.R.T Support Yes
Current Temperature 0C (32F)
CD-ROM Drive
Name Optiarc DVD RW AD-7260S ATA Device
Drive D:
Transfer Rate -1
Status OK

Monitor (x2)
Name Generic PnP Monitor
Screen Height 1080
Screen Width 1920
Status OK

 

[Phaewryn]

I should be able to buy the board and processor at the same time, that's not too big of a stretch. I have a boyfriend with a gazillion spare pcs in various stages of "together", I'm sure he can throw each part into something to test them as they trickle in. But he does tech work for work, so I try not to ask him too many techy things, as it's his job, and I am his pleasure, and those two don't mix well (generally speaking). It annoys him when I ask him for tech advice/help, he's a big fan of learn the stuff yourself by googling it (but you guys are WAY faster).

And as far as that user account goes, you can remove it, but it comes back every time you update the drivers or anything to do with NVIDIA, and it annoys me. No logical reasoning, no rationale, just annoys me by merely existing.

I don't think the game I am playing is THAT graphically intense, but maybe I am wrong? It *is* newish. But it doesn't have like "realistic" graphics, it's basically a fancy minecraft.

I don't like the concept of used parts. I don't have money to waste on parts that may be shorted out or dead on arrival. If I buy new, I get some sort of warranty.

so i dont understand what's wrong with nvidia, i have never heard of a ghost user account (i also DONT install geforce experience or anything extra, always driver+physx), you should be able to remove it https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3067/~/what-is-nvidia-’updatususer’?

a 9800gt IS for gaming... older ones at least, maybe not good for this game

let's see, if we estimate... $230 4690k (or non k if you want to save a bit & are sure you wont overclock), $80 ddr3 8gb, $140 mobo.... hmm well you can wiggle everything but the cpu to see what's left over for gfx, i probably overestimated the ram & mobo

sales are good, patience is good, but you should at least be able to test the part you got, for example if you get a mobo, you cant test it without a cpu+ram & you need to know if it works in case you have to return it

speaking of 'old', what if you got a used parts? good ones of course, i7 only

 

[Bronan]

lol i never have an issue helping my friends.
But its not that nvidia is the issue on itself but the prices of nvidia are insane high for a medium nvidia card you get a monster card from amd thats what it is in reality.
nvidia still can not beat a 295x2 card with any card they sell at the same price, the nvidia card the titan x costs a small fortune 1500+ dollar and is not even able to beat in all games the 755 dollar amd card.
Simply said you get more bang for your bucks with a amd system, he might not beat the fastest one on the planet but its certainly a very good solution for alot less money.
But back on the topic i think you might do fine with a i3 based system, the main issue i see with your current setup is that you need a faster harddrive as well.

Modern motherboards no longer support ide. that makes things a bit more expenssive. i normally advise people to start with a ssd drive which is at least 180 Gb for the os and a data drive as needed 1 Tb or 2 Tb drives are pretty cheap to get or maybe you friend has some doing nothing. However i think you would prefer at least a sata 3Gb (sata300) or a newer model from the sata 6Gb (sata600). And you need new memory on that board 4 or 8 Gb will be fine and is more than enough for coming years. you need to check if the motherboard support dual channel memory setup . Its not a huge increase but does speed the system up. However most people do fine without
All main components are nowadays on the motherboard so you kinda need those items i mentioned
Not all people spend 12000 dollar on their machine to game

 

[SonicZap]

Anyone else with NON-NVIDIA card suggestions that cost under $180?

The R9 270X should fit well into that range. Possibly a R9 285 on sale as well.

Also, what's the difference between the 270X and the 270 without the X? Do I need the X? Because there are several more (various brands) in my price range without the X.

The 270X simply has higher clock speed than the 270, and so it's slightly faster. The difference between the two cards isn't large, but if the 270X costs the same as the 270, you should get the 270X. If the 270 is cheaper, then it's a good choice as well.

Both the 270 and the 270X are way above the recommended requirements for Rising World, so either will likely be enough for you.

 

[krusha03]

If you don't plan to overclock this is what I would do:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-4460 3.2GHz Quad-Core Processor ($176.98 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: ECS Z97-PK (V1.0) Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($61.98 @ Newegg)
Memory: Team Elite Plus 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($43.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Sandisk Ultra Plus 256GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($84.99 @ Newegg)
Video Card: PowerColor Radeon R9 290 4GB TurboDuo Video Card ($229.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $597.93
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2015-06-04 04:55 EDT-0400

Alternatively you can go for a k-type i5 cpu or xeon 4c / 8t and ditch the SSD if booting time is not important to you

 

[XSI]

^^ oh that's a very nice setup for the money!
damn 290 still cost 300+ Euro here...

 

[Phaewryn]

So then I assume that the brand on the video card doesn't matter? I was worried about buying something as "off" sounding as a brand called "powercolor". It's ok? I kinda like the smaller board, I could put it in a square case, instead of a tower. I'll have to do more research on this option, thanks. But my main question: Off-brand video cards are OK? (off brand meaning I have never heard of them before now, unlike ASUS, NVIDIA, Gigabyte - which are brands I have bought before and trust)?

I guess a good follow up question for everyone here would be to list all the brands of video cards that you all TRUST and feel are QUALITY. For example, there are several Sapphire brand cards in my price range and color scheme. Is that a dependable brand, or not? Is PowerColor really acceptable? It sounds like it's a brand made to just give people colors they like... and if they are focusing on colors, are they focusing on component quality enough too? See what I am asking? Are all brands really the same thing? A 270X is a 270X in any brand you buy? A 290 is a 290, no matter what brand name is on it? Are they all made in the same plant, and just branded differently?

If you don't plan to overclock this is what I would do:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-4460 3.2GHz Quad-Core Processor ($176.98 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: ECS Z97-PK (V1.0) Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($61.98 @ Newegg)
Memory: Team Elite Plus 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($43.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Sandisk Ultra Plus 256GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($84.99 @ Newegg)
Video Card: PowerColor Radeon R9 290 4GB TurboDuo Video Card ($229.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $597.93
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2015-06-04 04:55 EDT-0400

Alternatively you can go for a k-type i5 cpu or xeon 4c / 8t and ditch the SSD if booting time is not important to you

 

[Phaewryn]

Woot, yay! Thank you!

The R9 270X should fit well into that range. Possibly a R9 285 on sale as well.

The 270X simply has higher clock speed than the 270, and so it's slightly faster. The difference between the two cards isn't large, but if the 270X costs the same as the 270, you should get the 270X. If the 270 is cheaper, then it's a good choice as well.

Both the 270 and the 270X are way above the recommended requirements for Rising World, so either will likely be enough for you.

 

[Devon68]

Well I believe it's all comes down to what you heard of. I like brands like Asus, Gigabyte, MSI , EVGA, but even brands like Powercolor are pretty good. Today they all come with warranties of 2-3 years so for the time being you can relax and choose whatever card you like.
BTW
AMD cpu = AMD GPU (same manufacturer)
but
Intel cpu is not the same manufacturer as Nvidia

 

[Phaewryn]

My boyfriend is a little burnt-out, it's not that he doesn't like to help his friends, it's just that he only has one other person in his department, and that is systems admin/engineering for way too big of a hunk of a company for two people to manage alone. I don't blame him for not wanting to do tech work when he gets home, his job is fairly high-stress, he works 9-5 every week, he's on call half the month (when he's not at work), and on pager a week of that (meaning he could literally be working solid that entire week, with no free time). On salary. So, yeah. I don't want people to think he's just a ****, he's just burnt-out.

Anyway... All extremely helpful info, thank you for taking the time to explain the hard drives as well, I hadn't gotten to that point yet, but it was in the back of my mind. Do you happen to know offhand how much space steam needs for just a typical install and to store a world or two in Rising World? Is it logical to assume I can put Steam and its games (I only have 3 games I really play/need) on a second ssd, or will I just not have enough space on an ssd (a sanely priced one) too quickly? I'd love to not have crunch crunch grind grind noises (my computer sits ON my desk next to me, as I have cats, and cat hair kills ground-level machines - I know this from experience), but Rising World is stored locally, so I suspect it can hog space pretty quickly once you start building worlds? Os on a ssd for sure, though, yeah. My goal with the really overkill motherboard is that NEXT time I need to upgrade, I can build a better system on the same board, unlike my current board, which is the lowest bar in my case. If I get a really nice board, I can upgrade all around it in the future, and not run into the same issues I am having now, of not being able to load more RAM into my system. Plus... BLACK. I like black, black goes with anything. I have noctua fans I have to not clash with.

lol i never have an issue helping my friends.
But its not that nvidia is the issue on itself but the prices of nvidia are insane high for a medium nvidia card you get a monster card from amd thats what it is in reality.
nvidia still can not beat a 295x2 card with any card they sell at the same price, the nvidia card the titan x costs a small fortune 1500+ dollar and is not even able to beat in all games the 755 dollar amd card.
Simply said you get more bang for your bucks with a amd system, he might not beat the fastest one on the planet but its certainly a very good solution for alot less money.
But back on the topic i think you might do fine with a i3 based system, the main issue i see with your current setup is that you need a faster harddrive as well.

Modern motherboards no longer support ide. that makes things a bit more expenssive. i normally advise people to start with a ssd drive which is at least 180 Gb for the os and a data drive as needed 1 Tb or 2 Tb drives are pretty cheap to get or maybe you friend has some doing nothing. However i think you would prefer at least a sata 3Gb (sata300) or a newer model from the sata 6Gb (sata600). And you need new memory on that board 4 or 8 Gb will be fine and is more than enough for coming years. you need to check if the motherboard support dual channel memory setup . Its not a huge increase but does speed the system up. However most people do fine without
All main components are nowadays on the motherboard so you kinda need those items i mentioned
Not all people spend 12000 dollar on their machine to game

 

[Bronan]

Nah i did not mean anything towards your friend, I am in the same brache working also in IT.
Currently again head of the department .. sigh, so i know what it means.
Stress is kinda normal these days at work, because everyone wants it all phones, tablets, super fast pc's and all should work like they want it.
And most annoying of it all they want it all for free .
My office alone has 2518 workstations and about 47 medium to very large servers, thats only 1 of the 5 buildings.. so large enough.
Here we also battle against the top managers who think 7 people is enough to handle it all.
But enough about boring work, i admit my machines are all black as well .
I have another workstation a full amd build which in some situations or tasks, the power of the 8 core cpu of this machine beats the intel heavily.

Just wait a bit and see if the prices will fall when amd releases the new awaited series, i expect some very good deals to popup a short while.
Ofcourse if the new amd series are not as good as we expect it to be, the prices will only have a slight effect.

I'll be honest to you most people have a machine which in most cases is complete overkill for what they do with them.
In reality for most of the somewhat older (6 months+) games it really does not matter much which camp it comes from the amd runs them as smooth as the intel side.
What really matters is what are you able and willing to spend for it and what will you be doing with the machine.
My nephew got a small amd a10-7800 based system and is very happy with it, his games run good enough for him and it is cheap.
These cpu's have a build in gpu which actually are pretty neat performing. The cpu cost around 100 dollar and the motherboards are cheap.
That means you do not need a seperate gpu for it. Consider the options and look at a nice small case.
The intel build in gpu's are still not good enough for most people unless your playing non demanding games.

Alright going to bed will be a long boring day tommorow

 

[MxPhenom 216]

Brands on video cards... does it matter much? There's a Sapphire 100364L Radeon R9 270X 2GB in my specs/price range, but not all great reviews on newegg.

Also, what's the difference between the 270X and the 270 without the X? Do I need the X? Because there are several more (various brands) in my price range without the X.

Disregard Newegg reviews and look at actual extensive reviews with benchmarks. R9 270 = 7850
R9 270x = 7870

techpowerup has benchmarks comparing the two cards, the 270x is the better one.

 

[Phaewryn]

newegg had a sale I couldn't resist... I now have part #1, a very nice board that can be upgraded in 5 years to higher end processor/video cards (when, you know, I need to play a more complex game): GIGABYTE GA-Z97X-UD5H-BK Z97 (it was on flash sale and with a $20 rebate, so $159.99 sale price and then it'll be $139.99 after the rebate is done). It's one model better than the board I'd picked out... for the same price, and it has that VGA port I was missing on the one I'd decided on (which I use for a instant messenger monitor).

In other news... according to my monitoring program, my harddisk was 392F degrees (200C) earlier when my game kept crashing over and over. I didn't even know that was possible. You would think it would start burning things in the case at 400 degrees. My OVEN burns things at 400 degrees.

 

[Peter1986C]

In other news... according to my monitoring program, my harddisk was 392F degrees (200C) earlier when my game kept crashing over and over. I didn't even know that was possible. You would think it would start burning things in the case at 400 degrees. My OVEN burns things at 400 degrees.

That is a censor reading bug.

 

[Phaewryn]

That is a censor reading bug.

I certainly hope it is.