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3850 AGP OC'ing, Vmods, experiences, suggestions, where to buy

Discussion in 'AMD / ATI' started by intel igent, Jan 18, 2008.

  1. sliderider New Member

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    At this point I have to agree that it's time to buy a new motherboard with a PCIe x16 slot. The best card you can get now to replace your video card when it finally does go is a HIS HD4670 IceQ and that's around $125. For $125 you can get a 5770 in PCIe (and I recently saw a used 5830 on ebay for that price) and be able to use DX11 which you can't with a 3850/4670. Going forward your system is going to become more and more bottlenecked by that AGP slot because games are going to continue to advance at a faster pace and there will likely be little or no further support for AGP in the future.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2011
  2. wahdangun

    wahdangun New Member

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    why don't you buy HD 4670 AGP ??? its cooler and perform better :confused:
  3. _JP_

    _JP_

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    Well, to be honest, besides what you have done, the only other thing I could recommend is a full re-install of the OS with all the drivers properly installed, 1st chipset, 2nd on-board stuff, 3rd Graphics card...
    You can also do this. Use any of the coolers mentioned here that have been said to work. I recommend Zalman's solutions or, if you're short on cash, Arctic Cooling. Also, consider getting a heatsink for the RiAlto chip on the backside of the card (the one that has a pink-ish pad on it, near the AGP connector). That chip gets very hot while gaming and cooling it properly will give your card a longer life-span and will show better results.
    Before all that you could just replace the thermal paste on the card's cooler and see if it improves anything. If you don't know how to do it there are several guides in the web, that are very good. Heres one. It applies to CPUs, but is pretty much the same with GPUs.
    Consider that nollo might not the funds to upgrade to a whole new system, something that you sure are proposing. Considering nollo is still using an AGP board it's also safe to assume that he's also still using DDR RAM and a Pentium4/D or an Athlon 64. So after all this he would need to upgrade motherboard, CPU and RAM. Also, to take full advantage of today's technology, most good boards come with a EPS12v connector (i.e. 8-pin +12v board connector), something that his PSU might not have, since old boards only used 4-pin. But get this, there aren't that many games that make use of DX11, yet, and AGP is supported by all current games. So while you are right about the performance increase between PCI-e 2.0 and AGP 8x, if the user only wants a solution to his current issue (properly cooling the card), let's just provide that, shall we?
    Not only is it cooler, it also consumes less. As for performance, it's about the same as the HD 3850 AGP up to 1440x900, after that the HD 3850 is better, because of the 256-bit RAM bus length. The HD 4670 also has better support and less performance impact on AAs and AFs up to the mentioned resolution.
    Yes, there is. ;) To fill in your System specs, please, click here. Don't forget to select "Yes" on the drop-down selection box right in the beginning of the page.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2011
  4. sliderider New Member

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    You can get an 880G motherboard for $60 and 3GB of DDR3 1066 for $35, that's less than the cost of replacing the AGP video card and even the onboard video that comes with 880G won't be that bad in comparison to a 3850 until a cheap PCIe card can be obtained. After my HD4850 died I was using the onboard HD4250 for about 4 months until the HD6870 came out and with all the eye candy turned off, most of my games were still playable though I had to drop down to DX9 mode for those games that had one. It shouldn't take anything more powerful than a 5670 to equal or exceed the performance of an AGP 3850, so the upgrade will easy enough to save up for. Any power connectors needed can be adapted from molex connectors for a few bucks each. The only way a new PSU will be needed is if he's still using something in the 300W range or plans to buy a high end video card, which you make it sound like he can't afford anyway.

    Edit: According to AMD, the HD3850 requires a 450W PSU with one additional power connector for the card. A 5670 requires only a 400W PSU and no additional power connector so if he's running a 3850 now, he has a PSU capable of powering a 5670 and possibly even a 5770.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2011
  5. trt740

    trt740

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  6. sliderider New Member

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    Other than power usage, the 4670 is a sidegrade from a 3850. If you're going to spend the money, it's better to future proof yourself a little. Even if he has to buy a new CPU for the motherboard I suggested, an Athlon II X2 is still cheap and the system will be less CPU bound in games than whatever single core he may be using now further justifying the expense of the upgrade and the CPU, video card, and RAM can be upgraded more in the future as money allows. A lot of people have even had success at unlocking the single core Sempron to dual core, so that may also be an even cheaper possibility. It is highly unlikely that there will ever be a DX 11 card released for AGP that delivers anything close to acceptable performance as a gaming card. There is an HD5450 for PCI, but it's still slower and has less texture memory than the Sparkle 9500GT 1gb card so the DX11 compatibility is basically useless. Both of those cards would be downgrades from a 3850/4670 and cost almost as much. Pouring additional money into a dead end architecture with no increase in performance to justify the money spent makes no sense at this point.

    And seriously

    http://3btech.net/3btecocospam8.html

    $269 for an Athlon II X2 with 2gb DDR3 1066 RAM, 500gb SATA hard drive, and a 550W PSU.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2011
  7. nollo New Member

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    ! wow

    Wow the suggestions are fantastic! Too be honest this is the first board i join with such fast and knowledgeable responses, I really appreciate this, I was lost and now i feel well equipped with multiple alternatives.

    JP is right though I am currently the most strapped for cash as I have ever been in my life haha, working on that of course ~ I do run a 1440 X 900 resolution, and the games I play are hardly new~ just so you all know where im coming from.

    It is my plan in the future to work on a entirely new system, I just wanted to get more life out of my current as I just have too many issues to be spending on a new machine ( which in reality would just further my gaming addiction and prevent me pursuing new clients haha!)

    I tried a OS reinstall and refreshed all my drivers, felt that overall the machine was running better but the video card problems remained, hence It is the card itself and not driver issue. So with that I am going to approach this by first searching for some cooling options that will work and maybe extend the playing life of the card, and so i can even play games!

    This is my Mobo http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=4COREDUAL-SATA2

    I got it thinking one day down the line I would want a PCI-E card, So I am guessing with this Mobo perhaps it broadens my options for perhaps replacing the 3850? ... scratch that I just realized its only a x4 slot, I need x16 correct~ Doh!

    If I cant find cheap and effective means to let the 3850 run my current games till it dies, then I will have to go with a replacement card that fits my current system. While the idea to get a cheap new system is a good one, I want to ride this one till I save money to buid a strong system that will last me in the future ( one i will no doubt be utilizing this forum to help put together!)

    I posted my system specs up so now you can see what im working with, and my situation. Ill let you all know how it pans out~
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2011
  8. InnocentCriminal

    InnocentCriminal Resident Grammar Amender

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    Why would I buy a 4670 when I already have a 3850? I don't understand.
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2011
  9. _JP_

    _JP_

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    Take a look at my system specs, for some ideas. ;)
    You don't really need a x16, x4 works fine.
  10. sliderider New Member

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    The point he's trying to make is if the 3850 dies, the 4670 is available as a comparable replacement, but at this point your system is maxed out and you're probably looking for something better than just a straight up replacement. AGP performance is not likely to get any better in the future than what you already have so the only way to upgrade is to a new system and like the one I linked to. Entry level systems that can be upgraded later on are cheap enough. Even if you were to buy a HD5670 and install it in the one I linked, the total cost would still be under $350. You can even find Intel i3 systems in that price range, though the cheapest one I found came with only 1gb RAM which would suck for games.
  11. sliderider New Member

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    He can buy a much better motherboard that supports newer processors for less than you can find that one for. I was considering recommending either that one or the one that supports socket 939 because he can carry over some of his legacy hardware, but socket 775 and 939 are as dead as the what he is upgrading from. Better to go with an AM3, or LGA 1156 motherboard and if I was starting fresh knowing what I know now, I'd go for an LGA 1156 and G6950 or Core i3 with the object of eventually upgrading it to an 800 series i7 since they are less CPU bound in games than Phenoms. LGA1366 motherboards and i7's are just too expensive. I would have paid more for a motherboard and CPU than I paid for my whole system if I had gone that route.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2011
  12. InnocentCriminal

    InnocentCriminal Resident Grammar Amender

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    I have a completely different rig now. The 3850 is in a back up rig.
  13. nollo New Member

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    JP you suggest that the Radeon HD5770 works on this motherboard? I looked at your specs and we have the same motherboard,audio, i used to have a 80gb also haha but just 2 500 now. Hmm im wondering then if i can upgrade my ram and card similar to your set up without any hitches?
  14. sliderider New Member

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    Actually, this motherboard was created as a stop gap measure between the AGP and PCIe eras so that users of older systems could carry over some of the parts to their new one. At this point you're better off buying a motherboard that supports newer processors and faster memory than trying to salvage old parts that are going to hold your system back. For a slower video card the difference between x4 and x16 won't seem like much but when you start looking for more power from a higher end card, that x4 is going to be a bottleneck because it only has a fourth the bandwith of a full x16 slot.
  15. T3kl0rd

    T3kl0rd

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    Not any need to upgrade past HD 3850 for AGP, if you are still using AGP. I still have my HD 3850 AGP, although I didn't need it because of the CPU bottleneck. Would have had same FPS with HD 3650. Went 3850 because I didn't know what the bottleneck would be exactly. My current rig pwns and can play anything, so glad to have it. Now I can't wait to embrace PCI-e 3.0 and another dual GPU setup in a few years. ^^
  16. OneMoar

    OneMoar

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    :banghead: no comment ... :laugh:
  17. T3kl0rd

    T3kl0rd

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    Why quote me? Everyone else is saying upgrade too. :confused:
  18. _JP_

    _JP_

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    I'm not suggesting, it really works. The HD5000 series run in these boards without problems, with the latest official BIOS. As for RAM, unless you really need to, 2GB is fine and enough. I just upgraded to 4GB because I got a very very very good deal on the sticks. Before this, I had 2x1GB and it was enough to do it all, considering you are using the same OS as me. Even now with the 3.2GB of ram I never top 1.7GB of used RAM when playing...so there isn't that much need, save your money on that. Also, this board is made to only recognize 2GB of RAM by default. I'm using a modified BIOS so that it can use a 4GB kit, of which only 3.25GB are usable (even in a 64-bit OS) due to chipset limitations.
    Ok, we all get it by now that you want nollo to fully upgrade his rig, there's no need to emphasize that in 6 (long and thoroughly explained) posts, we (I, at least) got the idea by the 1st one. Of course an upgrade would be the salvation to most of his issues, but may I remind you:
    So, for now, nollo needs a cooler or a replacement card for his current rig. (something very low budget) Ok, AGP's not the best bus anymore, but if it suits nollo, why not? Plus, good PCI-e cards for this board are topped at the GTX 460 or the HD 5770. Anything better than that is just like having a Dodge Viper with bicycle wheels.

    (tl: dr) My bottom line, see if you can get something that can cool your card, both core and RiAlto Bridge, or get some cheap PCI-e card. I suggest the HD 5670. Don't touch the rest and raise some cash, THEN buy a whole new system.
  19. jtleon

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    Dialing in the voltage...

    I understand the age of this thread - I just wanted to share my latest experience in my own little legacy world.

    Over the holiday break I wanted to make one last attempt to squeeze as much juice from my HIS 3850AGP ICEQ3 before giving up for the PCI-E world.

    I was not aware of all the success documented here with the voltage mods. Rather I took things a totally different direction - this seems the best place to put these details - they may be useful in the OC efforts of others.

    I have tested this theory now on two cards, the HIS and the Sapphire version.

    Basically it appears that for a given cooling setup, i.e. a certain maximum loaded temperature, that the GPU has a "sweet spot" voltage and max speed setting at which all is stable.

    For the HIS card, I was able to OC the GPU to 796Mhz @ 0.974V with a loaded max temp of 61°C at an ambient temp of 20.5°C.

    For the Sapphire card, I was able to OC the GPU to 715Mhz @ 1.134V with a loaded max temp of 74°C.

    From the above tests, I believe that HIS had binned their GPUs much more thoroughly given they were factory overclocked to 720Mhz, versus the Sapphire 669Mhz.

    Just like with CPUs, GPUs have certain "steppings" which can overclock much better than others. The HIS chip seems to be a higher quality stepping. I will post a photo of the die shortly. The numbers on the HIS die are:

    NG7804.00
    0812SSY

    It is a worthwhile effort to reduce voltage and discover the maximum overclock possible given the obvious power savings and lower loaded temperature that can be achieved. No one in this thread has event tried a lower voltage afaik.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  20. TRWOV

    TRWOV

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    I'm currently playing around with some leftovers I have, one of them being a HIS HD3850 Iceq3 Turbo AGP. I managed to take it to 810/1251 with stock voltages. It can do 824Mhz on the core with zero artifacts but after some minutes of gameplay it locks up so I left it at 810Mhz. Trying to break 12000 points in 3dmark06. :nutkick:
    Crunching for Team TPU
  21. jtleon

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    TRWOV - I had the same problem, its very strange. As if there is some sort of speed limiter above 800Mhz.

    My HIS card is rock solid at 796Mhz, but for no apparent reason, just 13Mhz higher and it will hang up (at the same 0.974V) - even when the GPU is less than 63°C max load (Furmark).

    Another odd thing, is Furmark runs solid for hours at 810Mhz, but when I run Crysis 2, or NFSMW for a few minutes, the machine will hang. The problem seems to be related to DirectX - not OpenGL.

    Now if my room is colder - say around 18°C, I have no problems running 810, 823, or even 836Mhz. So basically, at 0.974V I need to keep the max GPU temp below 60°C - that is a tough call for air cooling.

    Did you try to reduce your GPU voltage? Also, your memory speeds may be causing the artifacts - I would drop them first - they have little effect on performance, much less than GPU speed.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  22. TRWOV

    TRWOV

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    Apparently it's some sort of overheat protection as just the GPU locks up (but doesn't crash) and I can still hear the game sounds. I tested with the 3dmark06 demo and it also locks up but the sounds keep playing as normal. I've tested at 810Mhz and haven't got any problems. With 3d06 demo running I get 69C. The fan never goes above 56% for some reason.

    Odd thing, I can't set the GPU at anything over 810 until I hit 824. For example, if I set it at 820 GPUZ and CCC report 810. Once I set it at 824 it goes to 824.

    For 2D and video acceleration it can do 860 but once a 3D application starts it crashes immediately. Maybe it needs more voltage but I haven't changed it, it's not my thing but I guess I'll give it a go just to see if anything changes. I'll report later tonight.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2012
    Crunching for Team TPU
  23. de.das.dude

    de.das.dude Pro Indian Modder

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    why is the OP banned?
  24. jtleon

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    Yes I hear the sounds too after it hangs. However, the sound does hang eventually as well, once the directx buffer is run out.

    69C is still cold, and should not cause a crash - however, there is a particular voltage required for stable operation at 69C and your chosen clock speed.

    I have found that for 2D operations, the card will keep running up to 115C at which it will throttle back (pause) and resume operation at 113C.

    This overheat behavior has not been seen yet for 3D operation, as it will hang up before it gets that hot when clocks are above 796Mhz.

    The speed is a factor of 13.5Mhz increments - half of the clock crystal frequency of 27Mhz.

    So your reported speed choices are 796, 810, 823, 836, 849, etc. This is by design.





  25. TRWOV

    TRWOV

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    So that is then :) I thought it might be related to my motherboard.
    Crunching for Team TPU

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