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5 full computer systems needed for very basic IT/ICT teaching @ Community Centre - UK

Discussion in 'System Builder's Advice' started by Moyt, Aug 1, 2014.

  1. Hellfire

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    Believe it or not those Zoostorms aren't bad rigs, I had some across my desk a while ago and found Gigabyte boards in them and Western Digital HD's

    As for incidentals & little things like cables etc, try speaking to the company you order from, explain its for a Community centre etc and they'll usually be more than happy to donate a couple of quid cables to it. especially with a big order.

    Also, Remember keyboard & mice, I'd recommend simple wired ones of course ;)


    As for any help with set ups and especially networking, depending where you're in the UK I am always willing to donate time and networking skills for a good, worthy causes. If interested, drop me a line.
     
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  2. Seany1212

    Seany1212

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    Came here to reiterate silkstones point of getting second hand equipment, two weeks ago brought a E8400 wolfdale (£13 eBay), LGA775 mobo (gifted from friend), 4gig DDR2 RAM (£20 friend) and a corsair 500w psu (£25 eBay).

    A lot of LGA775 stuff seems to be going cheap and is still very powerful when you're looking at the core2quad range (Q6600 about £25 ebay) especially for what you need it for.

    Also free to drop some networking help if your around the West Midlands.

    Seany
     
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  3. Moyt

    Moyt

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    Pheeeew thanks for all the informative info guys, very much appreciated! :)
    It would be nice to save a ridiculous further amount going the used hunting route/building systems from scratch. But I just don't have much free time to do these things. Also some companies offer up to 3 years warranty on their systems. I want the people who run the Community Centre to not only have new systems, but peace of mind to go with it because I'm afraid they are not very versed at all on how computers work and run etc. Luckily it is not coming out of their own pockets as again they were kindly offered a reasonable grant - so they just want to see how things work out.
    For some random me who's doing this out of good free will with a busy life, I think I've taken on too much already lol.
    Though as selfish as it kind of sounds. If it was x1 unit for myself I wouldn't dare to think of buying a pre-built system and would most definitely build one from scratch to get the best 'bang for buck' even with used parts...Even though it's been such a long time since I've even put a PC together/lazy laptop person!

    A little story, some PC tech guy from a company was going to charge over £1000+ GBP/ $1680+ USD just for this small installation alone(!) never mind the other charges. I had to jump in and say I'll just do it for free, they were going to get robbed! I can learn something from doing this as well and get some experience in :D

    From the advise here I will try my best to bargain for a good deal explaining to them the purpose of using these systems to help teach others in need etc, then see what I can work out in the end.
    Problem being the weekend in the UK, no one will reply at the moment. So starting Monday I'll start to make calls - already left e-mails to various computer sites.

    Thanks for the replies and willingness to help me here. I may just shout for help at some of you if I end up in some networking pinch :p
    You've all been of great help so thanks again! :)

    PS - for fellow UK'ers. I'm from the Derbyshire area ^_^
     
  4. Aquinus

    Aquinus Resident Wat-man

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    The downside of building then yourself is that you have to manage repairs AND RMAs on these machines yourself. A lot of companies buy from others like Dell or Apple because if something happens to the computer, they'll replace it in a jiffy. Apple's turnaround time at work is usually 3-4 days, 1 day to send us the box overnight with a label to send it back, one to send it back, another to fix it and sometimes one more day to send it back overnight. All in all, if I start an RMA on Monday, it will be complete by Friday. Just a consideration as businesses tend to be big markets with a lot of money to spend
     
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  5. Hellfire

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    I second Aquinus, from a business sense I have always used HP, never hand built due to the problems that might happen.

    for this, I would recommend brand new parts and pre built rigs, sure for yourself second hand and building yourself is fine, but not in this situation.
     
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  6. Arjai

    Arjai

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    P.S. those ZooStorm PC's will be fine. i3's are plenty capable for your uses, my last school had hundreds throughout the building for student use. I was doing some multi-windowed math programs with them, several different computers, at separate times, and none of them gave me any grief.

    In fact, I nearly bought a laptop w/ an i3. But, as a cruncher, I knew the i5 would be better and the i7 I just couldn't justify the cost difference, at the time.

    Anyways, best of luck!! Let us know how it goes with set up. Sounds pretty basic but having never done it, I don't really know.

    :lovetpu:
     
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    Crunching for Team TPU
  7. RCoon

    RCoon Gaming Moderator Staff Member

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    CPC Farnell are the best UK distributors for cables. They are literally the cheapest (without being unreliable), and also offer free delivery on ALL orders. It's also worth noting they do offers on bulk purchases of any kind of cables. I also recommend you speak with Fovia Office for any printing need and also office supplies. We have a £25,000 per year contract with them, and the print service has been admirable. We also purchase Toners from IJT Direct and Toner Giant. They do recycled toners for printers, and their warranty covers any damage dealt to a printer from one of their recycled toners, so you can use it with some peace of mind.

    Sorry I haven't replied sooner, I've been out of town for most of the week's end.

    For any software needs, I can recommend Ramesys software licensing. Give them a call directly and they may be able to do some deals.

    One thing I've heard on the grapevine, Stone have been desperate to take some custom away from Novatech. Even if you're only building 5 PC's, it may be worth calling them up and seeing what deal they can give you. They do advanced RMA and warranties on all systems they build and provide for businesses and schools, and provide their own microsoft licensing too. It may work out cheaper in the longrun to go with a system builder like Novatech, Stone, or Very PC. Warranties can be wonderful things. If you'd like direct contact, I can give you phone numbers for any one of my account managers for printing and computing.
     
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  8. Moyt

    Moyt

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    Thanks again everyone I'm soaking in the advice whenever I get free time :D

    @ RCoon - Thanks once again for the details, very useful info. I've been sending e-mails to all sorts of 'IT solution' websites to see who can strike the best deals on systems. See what I can get before I resort to the phone.
     
  9. Moyt

    Moyt

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    Quick thoughts on this system anyone?
    Zoostorm SFF Desktop PC
    • AMD A4-5300 APU
    • 4GB DDR3 + 500GB HDD
    • SFF Case
    • DVD Writer
    • Windows 7 Pro 64Bit
    http://www.ebuyer.com/634969-zoostorm-sff-desktop-pc-7260-6006

    EBuyer are giving me great discounts, better than Dabs, very-pc couldn't compete, nor can Misco. I'm not sure the others can either but waiting on replies.
    I've never used an AMD APU machine before. Though I'm sure even this system will be more than enough, but wanted some opinions on it.
    Just waiting for funds so that I can start ordering :)
     
  10. RCoon

    RCoon Gaming Moderator Staff Member

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    As much as I love APU's for their designated purpose, I cannot honestly recommend anything other than an Intel pentium/i3 for your specific purposes. The pentium will be faster. The only possible thing I can see the APU having over Intel is cost, maybe, MAYBE it would be faster with video accelerated playback, but that's it.

    This is far better:
    http://www.ebuyer.com/643320-zoostorm-desktop-pc-7260-8001
    +
    http://www.ebuyer.com/222455-logitech-mk120-wired-slim-keyboard-and-optical-mouse-920-002552

    It's worth noting this, plus a Crucial MX100 128GB would be the perfect build for such use.
    http://www.amazon.co_uk/dp/B00KFAGD88/?tag=tec053-21
    (you can use cloning software to transfer the Windows install from the HDD to the SSD, then wipe the HDD afterwards)

    And it comes out around the same price as the AMD, but the SSD will make it far far faster. It's pretty much the build we recommend to all Win XP upgraders. Zoostorm G3220 pentium minimum, with the added SSD. If you are disappointed by any of them, I'd eat my hat.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
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  11. Moyt

    Moyt

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    Yikes I'm short for time - other work commitments :d
    Ok I will respond later, sound like a good idea! But more work involved :(. I will just quickly say that the original system the 'Tech' guy who was going to charge over £1000 for installation was going to provide this spec system... :s
    Shown exactly on the invoice:
    Intel Celeron G1610 - 4GB DDR3 1333Mhz - Intel H61 Motherboard - Novatech CASE & PSU (@ £149.99 per unit no OS mouse or keyboard etc).

    I'm moving onto a system pre-loaded with a OS, because I was originally going to buy these disks from Amazon:
    http://www.amazon.co_uk/dp/B008OS5NKW/?tag=tec053-21
    But im not sure if I can trust them, or the seller as they haven't responded, and the feedback looks a bit 'dicey'.

    RCoon you've been of really great help. Hopefully you get notified right away if I were to PM you? In case I might be in a quick pinch :D

    I'll give a proper thought of the systems once I return later in the day - have to rush off.
    Many thanks :)

    PS - Amazon SSD link doesn't seem to work for me.
     
  12. RCoon

    RCoon Gaming Moderator Staff Member

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    Replace the "_" with a "." between "co" and "uk".

    Also yes I should respond more quickly today.

    Those above specs you've shown look like rather old tech, not sure I'd bother with that kind of thing, it's 2 generations out, and arguably not as good value for money.
     
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  13. Moyt

    Moyt

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    The headache escalates.
    It’s a Community Centre run by a handful, so making decisions has to be decided by the 'many' which leads ultimately by one person who has the last say. Who in the nicest way possible I can say is one 'clueless numpty' and takes his own decisions anyway regardless of the opinion of others.
    Take make matters worse this one person hasn't a clue about computers and their practical and effective uses for the RIGHT setting.
    He is most certainly not fit enough to make decisions in regards to this, hence why my dad tried to bring me in. But even being a bit clueless myself I have confidence I can do this, rather this than them pay some guy £1000+ who'll be running happily to the bank.

    So what's happened is this 'boss' of the Centre, saw a set up of 'laptops' in another 'Community Centre' in a different city. And is now boasting that "If they can have laptops, then so can we!". Yes this is what I have to deal with now :s
    He didn't know what the uses for these laptops were :(
    Was it for educational/learning use?
    Was it just a temp gathering for gaming/meeting?
    All he saw was probably a bit of 14" portable eye-candy, and thought it would be the bee’s knees to have it at the Centre as well.
    But apparently what he said at the most recent meeting which he considered his strongest argument for having laptops was........"They can be stored away easily".......*sighs*

    So my father has asked me to construct a list (without calling the head of the place a 'moron') why laptops is a very bad investment, especially for ICT/IT training for beginners.

    Nothing against laptops myself - I'm guilty of buying an Alienware m18x back in 2011 (though what a waste of money that was - typing from it right now :d).
    But for this....No.....just NOOOOO to laptops.
    This isn't meant to be a PC vs laptop war though this may kind of look like it. This is meant to somehow convey to this ‘head genius’ of the Centre that for practical learning and cost use = laptops aren't a viable option.

    This list needs to be short and simple, because this person doesn't know what a CPU, HDD etc. is.
    Specific values like differences in GHz, rpm etc. won't make sense to this person either. You have to talk in simple terms like 'twice as fast/cheap' etc.


    LIST:
    - Yes laptops can be stored conveniently, but can also be stolen just as easily. It is very unlikely someone will get away with a monitor, PC Unit, keyboard and mouse VS a laptop in a matter of seconds.

    - Complete PC workstation VS Laptop. PC's will always be cheaper, faster, easier to use and more reliable;

    - For the same price of a complete PC workstation vs a laptop, you will only probably get a 3rd of the performance from a laptop(?????) Someone please correct me on this, not sure what the general say is on these things are.

    - Learners and general users want clear visibility without making learning any more difficult. Looking at a smaller sized screen laptop won’t be practical and eye straining to that of a full sized PC screen. We need to make learning as easy as possible, not impractical at the expense of ‘portability’.

    - Laptops are more likely to have faults/breakdowns, and more likely the unit as a whole will have to be sent back, rather than fixing one component in a PC and having it up and running again more easily and quickly.

    - Once warranty has expired, fixing a laptop WILL be extremely more costly with parts harder to find, to that of a PC.

    - The feel and quality of laptop controls don’t sit well with everyone and vary very differently for different brands. They can be very impractical again especially for those trying to learn to use computers.




    ANYONE PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ADD TO THIS LIST, but has to be very simple reasons otherwise it will just go over this persons head.
    Not sure also how a network of laptops would compete against a network of PC’s (both wired)??
    Also please correct me on anything I’ve said (even horrible grammar used in the list :d). I’d like to make a list for this person as to how wrong he is and have it handed in within a day or so.

    Again I apologise to laptop users, this isn't a dig at them. But I feel the head of the Centre is ‘killing’ it for new learners with his ‘vision’ of a room full of laptops.


    @ RCoon.
    Thanks once again for you input, you’ve been more than helpful! :)
    Just realised the forum changes the amazon links yikes.
    Now I’ve had time to have a better look your suggestion sounds good:

    Logitech MK120 Wired Slim Keyboard and Optical Mouse
    +
    Intel Pentium Dual Core G3240 Zoostorm system
    +
    Crucial MX100 128GB SSD

    Although it would require some work from me which I lightly touched up on before, but I may actually go the extra mile to put those SSD in.
    Which HDD cloning software would you use?
    What’s your take on the system having w8.1? Then I should simply purchase ‘Stardock's START 8’ licenses to make the systems more user friendly to as close as W7 as possible. They’re only $4.99 a license anyways.

    Could I ask. Would combing a SSD with your recommended Intel Pentium Dual Core G3240 system, perform better than an Intel Core i3-4130 system with a standard HDD say like this:
    http://www.ebuyer.com/643321-zoostorm-desktop-pc-7260-8002
    I’m just weighing out if it’s worth going through the extra hassle of buying SSD’s, cloning etc, if the performance difference won’t be that different. On the bigger positive side least the SSD won’t fail in the long run VS HDD…yup??? :)
    These people at the centre wouldn’t appreciate my time and effort put in for free, which puts me off from doing this at the same time :( but least my dad will.

    I just hope I can convince this one lunatic at the Community Centre not to go for laptops *sighs*
    It wouldn’t surprise me if he questioned as far as to why the PC systems don’t have optical DVD drives, and not knowing what USB sticks are at the same time :s
    Said it before, but yes... This is the craziness I have to deal with :p

    Feel free to add to a list of things as to why they shouldn’t go for the room full of laptops route, over PC set ups. Considering the sole purpose of their use.
    Again many thanks :)

    I just hope I can still hold a good deal with ebuyer after messing them about already saying I would order from them within the day :s.
    First things first, to deal with the top guy at the community centre. If there’s no logic getting through to this person then I give up…
    The lengths I go through to help an old man out/dad :D
     
  14. RCoon

    RCoon Gaming Moderator Staff Member

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    Very much so, yes. The difference in processors will not enable the computers and included software to boot in seconds. With a HDD, the bottleneck is always the HDD, and is usually the main reason everything is slower. With an SSD, any computer feels fast. We put one in an E350 machine (the worst kind of mobile processor), and it turned it into a whole different beast. SSD's are a god send for budget systems, they make them feel a lot snappier. The issue with laptops is they are not upgradable besides the SSD and RAM. A laptop costs in excess of what those PC costs, and are slower, immensely. If a laptop screen/battery/board dies, you're buggered. If a part in a Zoostorm system dies, it can easily be replaced (all this is relevant if anything is out of warranty). Replacement parts for laptops cost too much. Batteries, screens etc are very costly, and are broken far easier than anything inside a PC. Laptop components in general are far slower than desktop components. It's a matter of heat. It's also worth noting laptops are far easier to steal.

    In schools we also have a governing body (Governors), who have the final group-say on everything. Luckily our IT team 7 years ago was shockingly bad, so now they have reasonable fellas like me and my team, they throw a great deal of money at us and trust our every decision. Needless to say, end users have to have had experience with cheap shit in order to appreciate someone doing the job properly, even if they see "eyecandy". In the event the main governor of the centre decides on laptops, I recommend Lenovos. They are the hardiest of all laptop brands we've tested, and we put SSD's in all of them too.

    In my experience heads of schools have a lot of "bright ideas". Sometimes you have to let them fail miserably and deal with innumerable complaints about their poor decision before they learn. It's taken our head 4 years to finally realise we need a new wireless system. He's dealt with terrible 3COM's, now he's happy to hand us £40,000 for a proper sitewide Wireless AC network.

    I can always do pricechecks for you, but as far as well rounded budget items, the zoostorm pentiums and the MX100 SSD's are the absolute best value for money I can find. They are sold on both Amazon and Ebuyer, so check between those two to discover who has the best prices. They are constantly locked in a price war. Just be sure to get a Pentium G32xx and 4GB of RAM. The rest doesn't really matter.
     
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  15. silkstone

    silkstone

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    Laptops will break much more quickly when you have multiple users on them leading to more RMA headaches, especially if you are going for cheaper laptops.

    Also damage that the people do to them might not be covered by warranty.
     
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  16. Hellfire

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    Yup, first thing you'll have is the laptop keyboards and screen hinges will go
     
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  17. Moyt

    Moyt

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    Thanks for suggestions people. I've passed my notes on to the old man, it's dragged on sooo long now it's unbearable! :d

    @RCoon thanks I've used your reply to help extend my list! Very informative! :) However IF anything gets through to 'that persons' dense nugget skull is another question lol.
    You definitely got some experience points in the field of buying(!!!).
    If my part doesn't fall through, I will certainly go through with putting SSD's in those Desktops as you suggested.
    Plus it will be something more for me to learn with the whole HDD cloning to SSD and so on, though I don't really have much spare time it has my interest :)

    I think ebuyer are the ones for me for giving the biggest discounts. I hope I can still hold to that after not getting back to them (due to one person delaying and messing about with decisions at the CC) :s
    'Insight' e-mailed me as well with interest in my purchase, but I've not replied back yet just to see how things go first.

    Much appreciative of you spending your time here to help me out so thanks again! :)
     
  18. RCoon

    RCoon Gaming Moderator Staff Member

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    I forgot to tell you, Clonezilla is what I use to copy a HDD install to an SSD unless I'm on a Samsung SSD, in which case Magician. Clonezilla is crazy easy though.
     
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  19. Moyt

    Moyt

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    Noted! :D

    Just to quote from their main page:
    Will that work from a 500GB HDD to a 128GB SSD? Or am misunderstanding?
     
  20. RCoon

    RCoon Gaming Moderator Staff Member

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    As long as the partitions are not fragmented, they will shrink to use up the size they actually are (e.g. windows partition will only take up 40GB of space). Google up about it, it can be a simple process.

    Alternatively, you can use MagicJellyBean on each PC to steal it's Win8 license and then burn a Win8 DVD of that specific type and install it on each machine and use the license codes you stole from them.
    I believe Win8 codes are now stored in the computers BIOS though, so if you install the exact version of Win8 on the machine that it had in the first place, it will automatically register the correct license code for you.
     
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  21. rtwjunkie

    rtwjunkie PC Gaming Enthusiast

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    I've also had great luck cloning using Acronis True Image, as an alternative. Just make sure to use latest version, 4.0 or later I think. It also will shrink down partitions to size up to a smaller SSD.
     
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  22. RCoon

    RCoon Gaming Moderator Staff Member

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    Forgot about that, also remarkably good software
     
  23. Moyt

    Moyt

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    Thanks people, will be interesting for me to see how this works if I get the chance.

    Let's see if all this doesn't go to waste and get the ball rolling first. I know, I know.....what a drag for just 5 systems :D
     
  24. Moyt

    Moyt

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    Been really busy with all sorts. I think I should change the title to x10 systems, because that's what was decided in the end on such a tight budget. But managed it somehow.

    It's an absolute tip right now, but I'm kinda 'chuffed' at the same time for someone who hasn't got a clue to begin with. Especially when it comes to even basic networking :p ...still working on that department :D
    BTW entire room is surrounded almost with computers - can't see everything.
    [​IMG]

    Want to say thanks to everyone giving tips and advice here.

    Thoughts off the top of my head that were useful to me.
    - DNS blocking is very useful - cheers micropage7. In theory it should be a room full of 'beginners', but who knows who might turn up hah. One simple flaw is it doesn't work with Google image search for example. But anyhow at least it's somewhat effective for web searches.

    - Acronis True Image software is brilliant - thanks for suggesting this rtwjunkie!

    - Rcoon's system suggestion with a SSD. For budget systems these run pretty darn well with SSD's! Very happy with the performance they're giving, and huge savings made with them already including W8.1. I'm even thinking if one were to build a system from scratch it probably wouldn't be worth the time and effort as those Zoostorm systems are ridiculously cheap.
    I remember just about every competitor couldn't offer anything better, especially as these Zoostorm system already had an OS included.

    BT Business fibre broadband installed. Not great for x10 computers but should be good enough for general web browsing; 40Mbps D, 10Mbps U.
    Still more to sort out.
     
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  25. RCoon

    RCoon Gaming Moderator Staff Member

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    Shout if you need a hand with any kind of networking, that's my actual main job :D also worth noting in terms of anti virus, the free ones are just as good as the paid ones. Not a fan of AVG myself but the rest I can happily recommend.

    Also, well done to you sir!
     
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