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Editorial AMD Didn't Get the R9 Fury X Wrong, but NVIDIA Got its GTX 980 Ti Right

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How the heck did that happen? Was the OS installing updates when the TDR happened and you didn't give it time to recover and turned the system off?



In the early Vista days nVidia wasn't the only one with poor drivers, pretty much all the hardware manufacturers got caught with the pants down. Even Intel's drivers caused shitloads of BSODs back in the day, their storage drivers for Vista were pretty bad in the beginning.



It is always funny when someone is commenting on something, trying to make a big deal about a problem they've never even experienced. When the crash happens you don't loose anything. The browser doesn't crash, the computer doesn't need to be rebooted. You can't be right in the middle of writing a long post, chrome just freezes for a second, then the monitor goes black, and 10-15 seconds later it comes back on and your right back where you left off with a message saying the nVidia driver crashed and recovered. The crash is a driver crash, not a browser crash or a system crash. The driver recovers and you keep on typing.

I've been dealing with it on my main system for about a month since they put out the first driver with the problem, it has happened 100s of times, and not once has it failed to recover.

Not entirely true, the Chrome bug also manifests itself as a reboot loop where you need a hard shut down / power down up to your PSU switch. I have had this one and it was gone one driver iteration later (the second release after 350.12). I also see others who have seen this bug crash their system or hard freeze. And this was on Kepler (!) not Maxwell. As far as I could distill, for Kepler it's now gone, has been smooth sailing for about a month now.
 

cadaveca

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How the heck did that happen? Was the OS installing updates when the TDR happened and you didn't give it time to recover and turned the system off?

Happened while windows was installing updates, yes but it was a manual update, and it just so happened to be a chipset driver that was being updated. The crash led to BSOD, and when the system booted back up, USB didn't work at all, meaning I couldn't log in at all. :p
LOL. OK.

It's really funny. I am sorry but it is. You people even when you agree that a specific Nvidia bug is not as minor as some want others to believe, even if it was involving data loss and re-imaging, even then "Well, OK it wasn't that bad, I had a back up".

If that was an AMD bug I would e reading all over the place
"NEVER AGAIN AMD" and 50 likes in every post of this kind.
Not form me you wouldn't. More than half the hardware I use is ES or unreleased parts, and such issues are commonplace for me. But if you think this gives you a flag to wave, please, be my guest.
 
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It is always funny when someone is commenting on something, trying to make a big deal about a problem they've never even experienced. When the crash happens you don't loose anything. The browser doesn't crash, the computer doesn't need to be rebooted. You can't be right in the middle of writing a long post, chrome just freezes for a second, then the monitor goes black, and 10-15 seconds later it comes back on and your right back where you left off with a message saying the nVidia driver crashed and recovered. The crash is a driver crash, not a browser crash or a system crash. The driver recovers and you keep on typing.

I've been dealing with it on my main system for about a month since they put out the first driver with the problem, it has happened 100s of times, and not once has it failed to recover.
I think the description you are giving is enough. Anyone reading that description and then your conclusion that's "not big deal" will be at least puzzled.

Let me explain to you what you just posted



Not form me you wouldn't. More than half the hardware I use is ES or unreleased parts, and such issues are commonplace for me. But if you think this gives you a flag to wave, please, be my guest.
I see people waving flags and pointing fingers to a specific company all day every day, for any reason, or no reason. My apologies if I am saying that it is not that bad to point at the opposite direction occasionally, when there is a true reason to do so.
 

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Not entirely true, the Chrome bug also manifests itself as a reboot loop where you need a hard shut down / power down up to your PSU switch. I have had this one and it was gone one driver iteration later (the second release after 350.12). I also see others who have seen this bug crash their system or hard freeze. And this was on Kepler (!) not Maxwell. As far as I could distill, for Kepler it's now gone, has been smooth sailing for about a month now.

As far as I'm aware, the Chrome driver crash was introduced in 352.86. At least that is what the thread here and the one on Reddit both point to. If you experienced an issue before that, it wasn't caused by the nVidia driver bug with Chrome.

Happened while windows was installing updates, yes but it was a manual update, and it just so happened to be a chipset driver that was being updated. The crash led to BSOD, and when the system booted back up, USB didn't work at all, meaning I couldn't log in at all. :p

In my experience with the bug, and everyone else's that I've read, the driver recovers though and nothing on the system is interrupted. I'm sure it is possible it might not recover, but it always has for me.

I think the description you are giving is enough. Anyone reading that description and then your conclusion that's "not big deal" will be at least puzzled.

Really, the monitor blacking out for 10 seconds and then coming back on isn't really a big deal. But if you think it is, keep spreading the word I guess...
 
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Really, the monitor blacking out for 10 seconds and then coming back on isn't really a big deal. But if you think it is, keep spreading the word I guess...
Browsing is something that anyone does everyday. You and me will start searching the internet and keep changing drivers(of course I haven't upgraded mine from 347 and it seems that that was a good thing to do). But others will make a call to the local shop where they took their system, or pay a technician to come and check their PC. You think this is not important? Really? Did you also missed the point where you talk about 100s of times? I guess so.
 
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Browsing is something that anyone does everyday. You and me will start searching the internet and keep changing drivers(of course I haven't upgraded mine from 347 and it seems that that was a good thing to do). But others will make a call to the local shop where they took their system, or pay a technician to come and check their PC. You think this is not important? Really? Did you also missed the point where you talk about 100s of times? I guess so.

Why would anyone search for and keep changing drivers for something that is not a big deal? :)
 
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it has 4096 shaders. maybe its not so less powerful, only amd forgot to show how it can be used efectively.
If you looked at slides AMD used at their announcement of the card they setup their benchmarks to do just that hence why it looked like fury was faster then a 980ti. They turned off what wasn't really done in shaders and left everything on that did. Which means most test AF was turned off on most of them. They discussed it on techreports podcast cause they did release settings they used.

AMD prices have gone up across the board even though it is an old product stack
Can you really be so surprised about the price increase. Look at AMD financial situation they are in, they kinda have to increase prices help they are lookin at going out of business.
I too am in that position, though not as dramatic. I am looking at the 970 vs 290/X vs 380.
380 is slowest of the 3, its pretty much a r9 285 re branded. 290 are the new 390 cards even though AMD trying to claim they are not rebrand which everything spec wise of the card even down to gpu date and id's say its a hawaii. if you are looking at a 970, 290x is only one in its performance range but that is a DX11 listed card. Don't know if amd will do a driver/bios update to support DX12 fully on them, though if they don't that is likely to piss a lot of people off since most know gcn it can do full dx12.
 

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Browsing is something that anyone does everyday. You and me will start searching the internet and keep changing drivers(of course I haven't upgraded mine from 347 and it seems that that was a good thing to do). But others will make a call to the local shop where they took their system, or pay a technician to come and check their PC. You think this is not important? Really? Did you also missed the point where you talk about 100s of times? I guess so.

The people that need to call a shop or pay a technician because they can't associate driver crashes that gives you a error message after it happens telling you the driver crashed are also the ones that are too stupid to even update their drivers and are using the ones that shipped with the system. So they aren't even going to be affected by the problem.

Yes it happened to me 100s of times, over a little over a month, that's 40 days. It amounts to maybe 2-3 times a day, and I'm in front of my computer way more than most people, probably at least 12 hours a day. Furthurmore, it was far less common on single GPU systems. Again, it happened ONCE on my GTX960 rig(which I actually use more than my SLI GTX970 rig). So the problem is even more localized to a very small subset of users as multi-GPU setups are still not very common. So, yeah, it really wasn't a big deal.

And, again, they fixed it in just about a month. I have yet to see AMD fix any bug in a month. It took them years to fix the HDMI scaling bug in their drivers, and that was just a registry setting that their drivers wrote wrong. And when they released the Omega drivers they actually made the bug worse for a lot of users.

At this point you're just trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
 
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380 is slowest of the 3, its pretty much a r9 285 re branded. 290 are the new 390 cards even though AMD trying to claim they are not rebrand which everything spec wise of the card even down to gpu date and id's say its a hawaii. if you are looking at a 970, 290x is only one in its performance range but that is a DX11 listed card. Don't know if amd will do a driver/bios update to support DX12 fully on them, though if they don't that is likely to piss a lot of people off since most know gcn it can do full dx12.

Yeah but it is nearly $100 cheaper or so (380) and if I am going to upgrade next year to either Arctic Islands or Pascal next year, why blow the $100 now. That is a dead loss. The 380 ought to let me play Witcher 3 at high with half decent rates (50s), in other words the 380 would be minimum. 390/X is not even considered. Not paying the extra $ for 4GB of vram that is essentially useless.
 
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People wanted some pictures so here. Yeah I know with the flash on it looks kinda dirty lol... live with smokers.... it isn't that bad in person.

I have to remove the Zalman, mount the radiator, put the Zalman back in, then install the card into the slot.
 
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As I said with W1zzards review... It was a valiant effort, as to pricing... they got scoped by Nvidia on pricing and now AIB can march prices up, and all the while AMD is still self-inflicting itself with PR.
http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/amd-radeon-r9-fury-x-4096-mb.213728/page-8#post-3304205

Executives like Richard Hundley (I personally think he's a terrible "face" for promoting gaming for AMD), while CTO Joe Macri is a fool for opening his mouth. Again controlling the message continues to be AMD's biggest issue!

Moving on, the thing that's not discussed/covered here is there doesn't appear there will be a Fiji FirePro Professional variant, which means AMD has only gamers to spread costs over, and that's a hard pill. I've also understood that the GM200 is only for gaming or the semi-Pro as TitanX, while even that is not as relevant this time around as the Dp compute isn't there, so again they're selling more-or-less just to gamers. (not going to be easy to hold @ $999)

So we have two max'd out 28nm process chips, that both need sell and both just to gamers. The big issue is they're in a current configuration and price, primarily meant for 4K. 4K's not truly rolling-heavy into the "Enthusiast" crowd, while for 1440p either card is a pricey cost for admission. Plus 1440p monitor aren't exactly priced to light-a-fire in the "Mainstream", especially the one's guys are hoping for the FreeSyn and G-Syn stuff. So both made something and I'm not sure the market is there to sustain.

While AMD is saying they have two lower parts to come, is there a GM200 that Nvidia intends to bring at a lower price? This might be the crux of what we have; AMD can bring Fiji/HBM to lower price point to exact volume pricing, but it hardly matters if the monitor pricing is still the barrier. And, there lies another problem... FreeSyn to the masses! AMD can say it's out there, it doesn't take special circuitry or cost, but so far the panel manufactures aren't moving toward it, or if they are demanding extortionate up-charge. Why is that?
 
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I think I will also fall to the green side, but not sure yet if for a GTX970 or 980.
 

cadaveca

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In my experience with the bug, and everyone else's that I've read, the driver recovers though and nothing on the system is interrupted. I'm sure it is possible it might not recover, but it always has for me.

I know, and typically NVidia driver issues have been really minor for me, but the BSOD noting the driver as the culprit says to me that it was mostly a case of really bad timing. I am running dual GTX 780 Ti in surround (1920x1200x3), which is probably an uncommon configuration based on what I have seen on other forums about the issue, and the lack or correlation between those reports and my experience is fin, for sure. :p After all the Eyefinity issues I had dealt with... it all seems pretty normal now for VGA drivers to have issues. I mean, I don't even really OC my main system unless running benchmarks... I prefer silence over performance. :p

I see people waving flags and pointing fingers to a specific company all day every day, for any reason, or no reason. My apologies if I am saying that it is not that bad to point at the opposite direction occasionally, when there is a true reason to do so.

Well, I was the guy complaining about microstutter and eyefinity/Crossfire issues for years before these problems became accepted as reality. The most common response I got was "I don't have the problem, so it must be your fault". If there is a problem in either camp that I see in my own systems, I'm ALWAYS going to tell people about it. I don't play favorites. I merely use NVidia GPUs currently, after trying to get decent eyefinity usage and failing for years.
 
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Why would anyone search for and keep changing drivers for something that is not a big deal? :)
Good question.

I'm ALWAYS going to tell people about it
And that's the correct thing to do :)

are too stupid to even update their drivers
First, Windows update. Second, you shouldn't use the word stupid. The "stupid" that can't update the drivers, could be someone who owns a company and pays "clever" guys like you because he have better things to do in his life than installing drivers and troubleshooting why Chrome keeps crushing.

At this point you're just trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
At this time you are just trying to make a mountain look like a mole hill.
 

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First, Windows update.

The version available through Windows Update is old. Windows update is about 6 months behind on drivers. They do this on purpose so that driver that is released to the public is mature and known to be as bug free as possible. The few versions of the driver affected by the bug will never be pushed out via Windows update.

Second, you shouldn't use the word stupid. The "stupid" that can't update the drivers, could be someone who owns a company and pays "clever" guys like you because he have better things to do in his life than installing drivers and troubleshooting why Chrome keeps crushing.

How many times do I have to tell you that the bug doesn't crash Chrome? It causes the monitor to go black for about 10 seconds, then the system is right back to normal. It does this usually within the first 5 minutes of opening Chrome, and then about once an hour, sometimes less often than that. It affects mostly multi-GPU systems, almost never affecting single-GPU systems. So, yes, it is a mole hill that has already been fixed and you are still trying to make a mountain out of it.
 
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Moving on, the thing that's not discussed/covered here is there doesn't appear there will be a Fiji FirePro Professional variant, which means AMD has only gamers to spread costs over, and that's a hard pill.
Well, I did mention it in passing, but most people are fixated on gaming rather than the industry as a whole. Which is strange considering that the larger picture dictates what products, how many, and in what timeframe we see future Radeon branded cards.
I've also understood that the GM200 is only for gaming or the semi-Pro as TitanX, while even that is not as relevant this time around as the Dp compute isn't there, so again they're selling more-or-less just to gamers. (not going to be easy to hold @ $999)
You seem to have forgotten the Quadro line entirely. The M6000 is currently in the channel, while it seems it will be joined by further Maxwell 2 variants when this years SIGGRAPH rolls around.
While AMD is saying they have two lower parts to come, is there a GM200 that Nvidia intends to bring at a lower price?
If history is any indicator, the Nvidia card at a lower price will be the 980 Ti. Nvidia still have to release a full-die GM 200 GTX-number series card ( as seen with the 780 Ti / Titan Black). I would assume that Nvidia's product release cadence (in the face of a minimal urgency now that the Fury X has been realized) would be to ready it for the high sales volume fourth quarter holiday season, since both companies have shot their wad architecturally speaking for the foreseeable future.
So we have two max'd out 28nm process chips, that both need sell and both just to gamers. The big issue is they're in a current configuration and price, primarily meant for 4K. 4K's not truly rolling-heavy into the "Enthusiast" crowd, while for 1440p either card is a pricey cost for admission.
The enthusiast sector, whether single card or multi-GPU, has never been a significant proportion of the buying public. Tech sites tend to give a distorted view of uptake. Go to a mainstream site and uptake looks better than any random gathering of people, go to a specialist enthusiast/OC/benchmark/hard-mod site and you'd swear that entry level is a single (minimum) top tier card an multiple diaplays and/or 4K. Sales of ultra enthusiast (say $600+) cards might be in the order of tens of thousands- maybe six figures if you're lucky, balanced out in a total market of fifty million in the year.

Oh, and well done @john_ . Nice derail of thread. What started out as a discussion about the Fury X and 980 Ti included an innocuous post about performance being held back by drivers, which you promptly turned into a single crusade regarding non-performance TDR issues.
 
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cadaveca

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Oh, and well done @john_ . Nice derail of thread. What started out as a discussion about the Fury X and 980 Ti included an innocuous post about performance being held back by drivers, which you promptly turned into a single crusade regarding non-performance TDR issues.


Yes, but that issue is part of what makes the 980 Ti not as much of a success as it could be, perhaps. There are some prevailing issues on either side of this context, both with AMD and NVidia. Yet to me these are two totally different companies with totally different business models and objectives. AMD is about pushing hardware design and innovation; they are a silicon technology house. NVidia, though, is a software company that also sells hardware, as so proudly claimed by their CEO. So, I think it's proper to be a bit more critical of NVidia and their software, while with AMD, you simply have to expect driver issues as part of ownership, because software is secondary to their main objectives.

To run it back on topic, this makes FuryX a grand success, and the 980 Ti a failure?
 
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Yeah but it is nearly $100 cheaper or so (380) and if I am going to upgrade next year to either Arctic Islands or Pascal next year, why blow the $100 now. That is a dead loss. The 380 ought to let me play Witcher 3 at high with half decent rates (50s), in other words the 380 would be minimum. 390/X is not even considered. Not paying the extra $ for 4GB of vram that is essentially useless.
you might look for a 285 or 290/x probably could get either one those at cheaper price, given performance issues with tessellation just turn off hair and be fine.
 
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Yes, but that issue is part of what makes the 980 Ti not as much of a success as it could be, perhaps. There are some prevailing issues on either side of this context, both with AMD and NVidia. Yet to me these are two totally different companies with totally different business models and objectives. AMD is about pushing hardware design and innovation; they are a silicon technology house. NVidia, though, is a software company that also sells hardware, as so proudly claimed by their CEO. So, I think it's proper to be a bit more critical of NVidia and their software, while with AMD, you simply have to expect driver issues as part of ownership, because software is secondary to their main objectives.
True enough, in the greater scheme Nvidia's TDR issue is a minus, but as far as I'm concerned, any company that puts out product should support it fully, and represent it accurately. You don't get a pass because you're known to be weak in an area of product support any more than Nvidia should get a pass for how it high-handedly managed the GTX 970 3.5+0.5GB issue because their hierarchy is known for its arrogance.
And if we hold Nvidia to a higher standard on software because it makes up a substantial part of their products, do we not hold AMD's hardware to the same higher standard? There was considerable uproar over Nvidia's capping voltage limits for their Kepler/Maxwell cards, so how much more scrutiny should AMD be under for locking it down completely? Moreover if this is just a temporary measure, why not allow it from the start? Board partners had access to the card for some time, yet are totally unable to work voltage control into their OC utilities? A sceptic might surmise that allowing voltage control for OC'ing might just have impacted on reviews negatively. Overclocking doesn't seem to yield high real world returns, but I'm pretty sure turning up the voltage control would add more power, increase heat, and in turn, require that Gentle Typhoon fan to spin a little faster than the 1500rpm is was sent out with.
To run it back on topic, this makes FuryX a grand success, and the 980 Ti a failure?
Ha, if it were only that simple. A success is usually defined for a consumer product by sales, feedback from both the industry and consumer, and whether the product realized all- or most of its goals. By all accounts the Fury's launch was delayed considerably by performance issues with software. If the company had launched the card in a timely manner when the hardware was ready, and pre-empted the 980 Ti (and possibly the Titan X) which would have presented a completely different picture of the card to both the masses and consumers. Fury X with no GM 200 competition would have been raved about in every public forum imaginable. The card now suffers not from its own image, but that by comparison with the competition. Would AMD judge what would have been a PR bonanza, but is now "nice try" territory a success? Sales are brisk, but I doubt that there is any significant volume to speak of, and how many people who held their breaths waiting for Fury X, exhaled when it dropped and opted to either sit it out or buy a 980 Ti ?

So, regarding your ( I'm presuming largely rhetorical) question, I would point you towards the TPU poll, and ask if the voting would be the same if the 980 Ti option was replaced with just the Titan X at $1K or with the GTX 980 in its place?


So it probably requires a definition of success. Yes the card is selling, but there also seems to be a general air of "meh" and deflation. I'm betting that AMD banked on a little more than "meh" for their largest GPU in their history by a considerable margin utilizing a revolutionary (discounting that Intel got 2.5D stacked memory into product some time ago) memory technology. Personally it is a storm in a teacup. The card isn't bad, but from my viewpoint it isn't great either. Reference only, voltage locked doesn't scream "BUY ME!" for the enthusiast tinkerer in me. In the greater scheme, I suspect that the card will sell, and will continue to do so when AMD institute their inevitable price cuts, and in a year we'll be debating the veracity of Arctic Islands and Pascal benchmarks popping up on gossip sites reprinting some Chinese adolescents first attempt at making a bar chart in Excel.
 
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you might look for a 285 or 290/x probably could get either one those at cheaper price, given performance issues with tessellation just turn off hair and be fine.

Surprisingly, last I looked the 380 4GB is the same price as a 285, go figure. I am holding out 2 more weeks for the last release to see what happens. Hopefully a good deal will show up on the 290/X. $299 is close but for a mere $25 more I can get a 970 right now.
 
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TBH, this generation compared to the previous one, is not worth at all spending money on it. I'm just curious, on current rate, when can we expect the new gen cards, from both nGreedia and AMDee ? Late 2016? Or even 2017?
 
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The version available through Windows Update is old. Windows update is about 6 months behind on drivers.


So, are we going to read an editorial about this one? ANYONE? SOMEONE? NO ONE? Figures.....


They do this on purpose so that driver that is released to the public is mature and known to be as bug free as possible.

Oh yes!!! That's it. This is about Nvidia. So WE HAVE EXCUSES. WE ARE FULL OF IT.
I mean excuses. What did you thought?

How many times do I have to tell you that the bug doesn't crash Chrome? It causes the monitor to go black for about 10 seconds, then the system is right back to normal. It does this usually within the first 5 minutes of opening Chrome, and then about once an hour, sometimes less often than that. It affects mostly multi-GPU systems, almost never affecting single-GPU systems. So, yes, it is a mole hill that has already been fixed and you are still trying to make a mountain out of it.

Let me explain it to you AGAIN.

This is what you just posted




PS From the driver download page

This is a GeForce Hot Fix driver, version 353.38 that addresses the following issues:

  • Chrome Crashes/Freezes/TDRs
It does not say "multi gpu setups" because it happens with single GPU setups also. You may continue trying to lie about that. It's your right.


Oh, and well done @john_ . Nice derail of thread. What started out as a discussion about the Fury X and 980 Ti included an innocuous post about performance being held back by drivers, which you promptly turned into a single crusade regarding non-performance TDR issues.

OK, then go to the other thread where you tried to make me look bad and instead you managed to humiliate yourself by proving all my points.
Let me help you find the post
AMD Doesn't Trust its Own Processors - Project Quantum Driven by Intel Core i7-4790K | Page 8 | TechPowerUp Forums
 
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OK, then go to the other thread where you tried to make me look bad and instead you managed to humiliate yourself by proving all my points.
Let me help you find the post
Oh, and well done @john_ . Nice derail of thread. What started out as a discussion about the Fury X and 980 Ti included an innocuous post about performance being held back by drivers, which you promptly turned into a single crusade regarding non-performance TDR issues.
Which has exactly what to do with this thread ?- oh, thats right!.... Absolutely nothing.
Keep up the capslock, bolding, and mouth foaming - it really adds to your argument.


BTW: My bad on the other thread. I should have done some more research. Feel better now?
 
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