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anyone else beta testing Elder scrolls online?

Discussion in 'Games' started by fritoking, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. BumbleBee

    BumbleBee

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    the reason I brought up EVE is because it's considered the most hardcore MMO out there. it has a steep learning curve but rewards players who are patient. it's a game for the intellectual.. the average age is 30 or 35. you can't win because there is no level cap. the developers allow players to pay subscription with in-game currency instead of real money and the expansions are free. you will get a rush from PvP because when you lose a ship it's gone forever. it's a true sandbox experience with risk, scamming, player driven market and other things (see below). EVE Online has outlived every MMO because it doesn't chase World of Warcraft.

    if you want to see what the other side of the coin looks like.. check it out.

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2014
  2. ne6togadno

    ne6togadno

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    if i remember well blizz asked about 30-40euro for pandaria when expansion came out and it wasnt including 30days free. 2 years back i got my wow copy free from bnet promo and i remember i had to pay about 40+ euro to get expansions till cata which at that time was 3-4 months old.
    yes it it was pc only it would be cheaper but truth is console players are wider audience and if we want to play it longer (and beth to get $$$ longer) it has to be available for consoles too (or if we have to be correct pc players pay more so they can get console game ported to pc).
    other option is to wait 2-3 months initial hype to pass and then to get it when price drop to 30 as you pointed in edit which i didnt read
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2014
  3. newconroer

    newconroer

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    Since you already let it slip - low experience from mob kills - is one aspect that absolutely kills ESO's chance at really solidifying itself as a contender.
    They may spread out the quests, and throw in some random locations for them (instead of the obvious outpost quest hubbing we've become accustomed to), but it's still the same style of progression.
    I can't think of the last MMO that had good experience per mob kills, which would then provide you a completely alternative option to how you progress.

    Though the real transcending issue is that ESO is still using a numerical progression based system (that's no secret). This is one thing they copied from TES, that they shouldn't have.

    Anyways, I'll spill morsels as I release more update articles on Overlord gaming, but until then, it's an ok game, just not what it could be.


    EDIT: Bumble, while EVE is awesome, I don't think you're going to get any converts here.
  4. Kreij

    Kreij Senior Monkey Moderator Staff Member

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    It seems to me that low XP for generic mob kills would redirect the game from a typical grind to a more quest oriented nature to give people more incentive to experience the content through questing instead of just doing mindless mob killing. I could be wrong, but that sounds better to me, not worse.
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  5. Ahhzz

    Ahhzz

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    Gotta agree here. That's one thing I was pleased with right off, that I didn't make it to level 10 in 4 hours, which was the longest it took in WoW "back in the old days", even with playing around. I enjoyed that even with all the time I did have the last weekend, I barely cleared 10.
  6. newconroer

    newconroer

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    I understand where you are coming from, though hear this out.


    Let's consider some facts:

    A) You mighty call it mindless, some people call it fun. If the combat and the interaction (or simply the game itself) is enjoyable, then why would you trade one aspect for another? Why not have a mixture?

    B) You may be working under a false premise or faulty logic. The level at which you progress, is a mathematical formula that a developer decides upon and can structure around whatever game style they choose. If your argument was that 'back in the old days,' you leveled too quickly because of mob experience being high-er, than that's simply how they intended it - or in the case of really old games, possibly a mechanics imbalance.

    Ultimately, they could easily make quest gains massive, and you would be level ten in one hour - no matter the method.


    C)Warcraft began this quest progression style in the early 2000s. Unfortunately it went way overboard and became the default style for MMORPGs.


    Often we mistake mob grind as some archaic mechanic, yet in reality, it had a shorter lifespan than quest grinding has. Effectively quest grinding is more outdated than mob grinding.

    If you think about it, questing is like adventuring. You don't always go looking for it, sometimes it finds you. It can be random, unforseen and unpredictable.
    Where as you could view mob grinding as practicing both literally (as you the player physically plays the game and gets better) and metaphorically, as your in-game character gains better skills/levels up.


    To me that sounds more believable and realistic, than the other way around - the common MMO style - that you would go out into a world intentionally seeking adventure and find it readily available (npcs with exclamation marks), only to then run back and forth simultaneously doing these shallow 'quests,' and only killing (practicing) the bare minimum amount of enemies. You then return to a 'quest giver' and magically, with a click of a button you are suddenly and instantaneously closer to becoming more proficient, stronger and skilled.

    MMORPGS are not supposed to be the Matrix. You don't just plugin and upload the knowledge.

    So under that premise, they had it right to begin with all those years ago. Quests are long and winding and deep. They do not always pan out, and they don't give instant gratification. While you quest, that's when you get the experience, as you move from place to place, foe to foe. Echoing what I said above, "practicing both literally (as you the player physically plays the game and gets better) and metaphorically, as your in-game character gains better skills/levels up."


    Moving onto something practical and possibly familiar to you. When is the last time you heard someone say 'well if it isn't social, it isn't an MMO' ? We hear it all the time now days. There are games being ridiculed as 'too solo oriented,' or not 'social friendly.'
    Let me be clear, I dislike many people on the internet, or internet culture, however, there is some merit to what these people say (even if they believe it for the wrong reasons).

    You can't expect people to interact when they don't need to, and when there's no encouragement to do so, then everyone finds themselves playing alone.
    In these environments, you only interact when you have to and when you need to.
    Think about group finders and automated systems that remove many elements of the act and the art of playing MMOs with other people, they are implemented as a means and a metric to support the quest grind system(s) as it inevitably results in a overtly solo oriented gaming experience.

    However a game that is setup properly for monster experience grind, indirectly sends people on a collision course with one another and therefore they do interact. Whatever they do, they do it together. They meet, they greet, they communicate, they decide, they travel, they adventure, they win, they lose, they try again, they succeed, they fall, they quit, they reform, they leave, they return, they bid farewell, they send friend requests and they then repeat this cycle with their new friends, allies and like minded individuals - whom they would have not done any of the aforementioned things. because in other games, there's no need to interact that kind of level - and in some, they have cross server these activities with strangers, whom you will never see ever again!


    EverQuest Online Adventures might have gotten the closest. It was primarily around mob grinding yet the quests could net significant and relative (key word) experience gains from time to time. As mentioned above, you went out looking to hone your skills (mob slaying) and along the way you quested, you adventured. It was a secondary, not a primary.


    The thing to take away from it is that a good developer can make both systems work together and in some ways,

    That's what we need again, and sadly ESO doesn't take that risk.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2014
  7. Kreij

    Kreij Senior Monkey Moderator Staff Member

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    @newconroer

    While many people, myself included, enjoy mindless mob killing, it's still mindless. It does not take a whole lot of wherewithal to figure out your characters optimum configuration/tactics for fighting mobs. I would never want to see an MMO remove the ability for a player to just go out and kill stuff if they wish, it just should not, IMO, result in the same or better rewards than for questing.

    I agree with you in that there has to be a balance to both. For instance, if you get a new weapon and want to become more proficient at it, you go out and use it. This, however, should definitely have diminishing returns. That brings up the age old argument as to whether characters in a game should have levels at all, as opposed to just becoming more proficient at their chosen abilities over time. By removing levels, you in effect remove the "magical quest completion" component of making a character better.

    This also brings up the issue with repeating quests, "quest grinding" if you will. The result of quest completion should reward the player with something that is specific to the quest (ie. The Super Awesome Ultra Mega Sword of Doom). Once completed, a player should be able to redo the quest with others, but should not receive anything other than some gold and any proficiency gained by using abilities. Again, this is this my opinion.

    As for the social aspect of MMOs, they are without a doubt a social mechanism to get people to play together. I don't think that this should exclude a player from venturing out on their own if they so choose. As an old school dice rolling D&D player, one of the things that made the games fun was that no matter what you tried to do, there was always a "chance" (however slim) you might succeed. Most of the games fail in this manner in that it is simply impossible to take on something that is considerable higher level than you, whether a mob or another player in PvP, if you are not part of a group. Should it be easy? Not at all. Should it be possible? Yes.

    I also am not so sure I agree with your statement that just a player "can" do something alone that they will opt to do it that way, or vice versa. When you read about EVE Online you are presented quite bluntly with the fact that if you like soloing it was not the game you want to play. I soloed exclusively and loved it, which goes back to the comment that players should be given a choice on their preferred play style, even if it's not the most effective means to accomplish things.

    I think that like every other MMO on the planet, over time the developers of ESO will adjust game balance, implement changes to the way things work, and eventually find a good balance for what people want in the game. While you cannot cater to one side or the other, I think that given the game is still in Beta and that it might possibly takes years of content addition and adjustment, it's a little too early to say what ESO will turn out to be like, or if they will ever "take the risk".

    Thanks for the discussion !!!
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  8. newconroer

    newconroer

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    I would question then the game itself, not the method. Inevitably, questing or quest grinding involves these same mobs that we are discussing. The question then becomes how much interaction with them, or how much slaying results in it become 'mindless' or not enjoyable?
    If you consider that - at least in group scenarios akin to the old EQ and FFXI days - there was more to it than simply bashing a monster and being successful in mere seconds. While the act and the animations may have been simple or simplistic, the entire process at times was quite complex. Once you became good at said activities, it netted more of a return than just loot or coin, but also a sense of achievement. Group building, travelling, camp placement, monster pulling, resource management(health/mana), speed and efficiency, adaptiveness, awareness, reflex, communication - it's a all part of the overall requirements. And in a way it's a form of management or micro management, which is really really popular to people.

    You are correct, we would never want mobs to simply disappear - that would possibly remove the need for 'open world' locations. We might as well simply dungeon crawl from a lobby menu like Diablo type games.
    Though if you want to look at a game that embodies the downfall of MMORPGS in regards to quest oriented progression, than look no further than FFXIV:ARR. The open world mobs are mere back drops and fillers, until they become part of a quest.

    Interestingly, ESO in fact has gone so head first into this method, that rather than balance it by making mobs have more experience reward, they've done the opposite and tried to support this system by making quests have stories in them that you may get attached to. Which in itself is a super welcome addition, yet not at the expense of never having the need or the advantage to simply go out and hunt at your own discretion. As eluded to before, they have dressed it up fairly well by spreading things out.
    We are on the same page mostly here. Though the only correlation I see between 'skilling' progression and numerical level progression is in whether they can make them mutually exclusive - and I believe it can be done(in some games it sorta has already).
    The question of 'magical quest completion' is or can be treated as a separate issue. It's only a sub component of the transcending progression system, whatever that may be.

    I'm pretty old school in that I do not expect any reward from a quest, especially not initially. You remember EverQuest, some things took MONTHS, and they had several stages where you received nothing but more items to carry on the journey - which is what it became.
    However if we had to meet in the middle and provide a bit more instant gratification, than at least remove experience from some quests and/or reduce them so they have less impact and are therefore not seen as primary source of progression. This of course though only works if there's alternative methods, such as monster experience!

    I've tried to do as much dungeon play as possible in ESO without boring myself, and for a while you can rack up fair experience gain from the monsters, however it's not a steady rate and I cannot determine the variables to the equation(metaphorically speaking). I need more time, however it's fair to say, they do not intend for you to dungeon crawl all the time - which is a shame really, because at times there's some real brilliance in the action when you play with others. You would think that developers would try to find that moment of clarity and capture like a Kodak moment, then reproduce it wherever possible.

    It may have been Smedley, or McQuaid whom once said that they never intended EverQuest to be a place where you were forced to interact with others, or relied on others to succeed at all aspects of the game. Unfortunately, any misplaced intolerance towards solo play, was more down to mechanics and how they were going into something a bit blind, unchartered territories so to speak. They still respected those who wanted a challenge alone.

    And I have always believed and agreed that adventuring with others is a bonus, a boon, and a part of the questing experience itself - it's "random, unforseen and unpredictable."
    When you force people to do something, whether alone or together, you will not win their hearts and minds the same as if you inspire or encourage them to do it.

    It's odd to think that we've been forced into quest progression and games that cater to the solo play, and yet we still try to shout down the idea of concepts like monster grinding. I often wonder if people understand fully what they are saying.

    As for the challenge aspect, yes, there's a significant satisfaction in being able to succeed alone, where others require assistance. Fallen Earth is great modern online game for that, and I often reference it as an example of how you can make a successful online game that's solo oriented, but not apologetic about it.
    I am actually looking forward to whether ESO's world mobs will get a bit of an AI tweak and balance, so that we get more of them, but downgraded slightly so they can be solo or double teamed, rather than having to wait on thirty random strangers to come to a 'dynamic event' and then spam abilities until all the spell particles stop exploding a.k.a. the fight is over.


    Unfortunately it seems to be a growing trend. When you do not need to communicate or interact, and you know you can do things alone, you often end up heading down that path. We could call it lazy, selfish, paranoid, anti-social - it doesn't matter how we describe it, it does happen and I can understand why.
    Alternatively you do not want to force people together as previously mentioned, as that can have even worse side effects.

    I'd also like to believe that ESO will eventually band people together a bit more through subtle means and if the game play gets better, there will be more people out in the open world engaging monsters for the simple play enjoyment and therefore cross paths.




    The conclusion here though is that nothing about these views dictate whether or not quest progression as a concept or a template, is better than monster grinding - or maybe more importantly, why developers cannot give more credence and focus on both types of foundations.


    I knew ESO might become a let down, when I started to notice various aspects that were a-typical of modern MMORPGs, and of course I realized they must only be implemented because the transcending game style and it's progression method is quest driven. And sure enough I was exactly right.
    And while most of ESO's failures as a break through game are a direct result of quest progression, there's a whole host of other little things it does very very wrong, that make even the most optimistic of it's players, wish they'd never even tried the game to begin with.

    It's like idolizing someone for a long time, and then when you finally get to meet them, you wish you hadn't.


    Of course, likewise.
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
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  9. tigger

    tigger I'm the only one

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    Thanks to both of you, interesting read.

    I personally enjoyed ESO and probably will be buying it.
  10. Kreij

    Kreij Senior Monkey Moderator Staff Member

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    I forgot to clarify that I in no way associate "mindless" with "not enjoyable". :)
    Mindless entertainment is sometimes exactly what I want to relax.
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  11. Octopuss

    Octopuss

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    Anyone questioning low XP from mobs should be forced to play the original Anarchy Online with just the first expansion. You ONLY levelled up by killing mobs. I virtually spent weeks killing the same mobs over and over with random groups for up to 16 hours a day to get to the cap. There was no other way to level up.
    Give me a break.
  12. newconroer

    newconroer

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    Exactly. And some of the most effective systems start from a simplistic foundation.


    Anyways, Pantheon might just be the savior for the MMO genre. I can't really plug it here, but the kickstarter is already under way, so get to it MMO veterans, donate!
  13. Kreij

    Kreij Senior Monkey Moderator Staff Member

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    @newconroer You can always start a thread to discuss Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen if you would like.
  14. Ahhzz

    Ahhzz

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    OMG I'd completely forgotten this... thanks SO much for bringing that sour egg back up from lunch...


    Thanks SpecialK and Newcon :) Nice discussion. I'll not add any more wall of text to it, but simply say I didn't have an explosive "OMG WOW" moment in ESO yet, which kept me from stealing the pre-order the other day, but I'll probably slide in a little later on a deal of the day somewhere, and be hopeful. Sometimes, the mindless grinding is enjoyable, but the thing I enjoyed most about TES games was getting so far off my quest path I forgot what I was supposed to be doing :)
  15. Jizzler

    Jizzler

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    Already paying $10/month for LOTRO in 3 month increments and ESO will most likely have a similar multi-month discount. I know LOTRO doesn't make you buy the game, but considering I went 128hrs into Skyrim before defeating Alduin, I think I could get $60 worth of enjoyment out ESO even if it fizzles out within a year. Hopefully not of course as ESO has so much promise, especially in terms of PvP. There's enough PvMPers left in LOTRO to probably fill 3-4 servers, except we're spread out over 29 servers and transfers cost $25 USD per character. In contrast, campaign transfers in ESO cost in-game points or gold. It's also a huge frickin' domination map!
  16. RCoon

    RCoon Forum Gypsy

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    That's happened far too many times. Especially when it comes to iron ore.
    The Flesh Golem was probably my WOW moment though, even though it was a controlled single player boss encounter, it rustled me in all the right places.
  17. Ahhzz

    Ahhzz

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    didn't make it that far (had a delayed Christmas with my Mom and family that weekend), but I'll check with my beta guild and see if anyone made it there :)

    I know I got more than my $12 monthly from WoW for the first 3 years or so, anyway, but I think I may have lost money the last couple of years I played lol. I could have been in Eve!! Eh, I've got several games I'm playing right now, altho Neverwinter is slowly falling behind to the wayside. I don't know that I'll have time to add ESO to the immediate ranks, especially since I'll need to save up some gaming brownie points for Star Citizen and Elite (and the associated gaming costs :( ).
  18. RCoon

    RCoon Forum Gypsy

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    I've flat out given up on all the multiplayer games I used to play. Started playing Loadout which is fun, and got back into XCOM. Only things I care about are Elite and Star Citizen like everybody else. Other games just got boring/dont interest me anymore. ESO would have been nice I guess, I just dislike these extras they give for preorders, I don't like preordering games. I learned my lesson with Diablo 3. ESO is on my limbo pile, which is entirely empty at this point.
  19. ne6togadno

    ne6togadno

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    the only thing that eso pre-order give is 5 days early access. shinny things come with imperial version and since there will be upgrade to imperial i bet this upgrade will be best seller in their shop
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2014
  20. Jaffakeik

    Jaffakeik

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    Ggoott into wweekends stress test.atleast will have some idea of game what it feels like.go get my final decision buy or not buy
  21. RCoon

    RCoon Forum Gypsy

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    Sadly I'll be sleeping at the gf's house this weekend, if anything awesome happens do tell me, and I can regret not being single for a while.
  22. ne6togadno

    ne6togadno

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    you have small case very easy to carry around ^^
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  23. tigger

    tigger I'm the only one

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    Got another beta key :D
  24. Ahhzz

    Ahhzz

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    Yup, got dental surgery tomorrow, out for the week, will spend my recovery Friday sitting in front of the screen :)
  25. ne6togadno

    ne6togadno

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    saying it this way almost makes me wish i had dental surgery too.

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