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ATI stream upgrade might be a flop for those with high hopes

Discussion in 'AMD / ATI' started by Sonido, Nov 26, 2008.

  1. Sonido

    Sonido New Member

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    I just wanted to let you guys know that the performance boost will go to those programs that are ATI-Stream enabled. They (AMD) are working on making it so that those stream capable apps can use the ATI cards, regardless if it was built for ATI-Stream use. But as not to totally kill the buzz for the up and coming upgrade, here's a bit of benchies from the upgrade.

     
  2. DarkMatter New Member

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    I don't quite get the title. Why would be a flop? Everything sounds good.
     
  3. Sonido

    Sonido New Member

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    Some people were hoping that this would increase performance for all apps that use these cards (i.e. Games).
     
  4. Lionheart

    Lionheart

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    I had know idea about this, it sounds pretty awesome to me though, sux about the games part but still encoding videos 17 times faster good to me!
     
  5. DarkMatter New Member

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    I don't see how. Ati Stream is a GPGPU initiative, just as CUDA and has nothing to do with games. It's only going to be a flop for those who fabricated their hopes out of thin air IMHO.

    It could be used for physics, but they lack software support. They don't want to use PhysX even when it's free to use AFAIK, because Nvidia owns it (I can understand, but not forgive*) and Intel owned Havok will not release GPU accelerated physics anytime soon, if ever. At least until they have desktop Larrabee out and I as said, even then, I wouldn't be so sure about GPU accelerated Havok, because Larrabee is x86...

    *I don't forgive, because they say they don't support PhysX because they only support open standards, yet they DID support Havok publicly, which is Intel's and far from being open. Also Havok in Intel's hands means nothing but stagnation in physics use and progress into games. At least until they are ready to compete. Lame. And Lame AMD decided to support them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2008
  6. Darknova

    Darknova

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    They always said it would increase performance in everything that isn't normally done on a GPU. Which means anything but Games :)
     
  7. Mussels

    Mussels Moderprator Staff Member

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    yeah atis stream is no different to CUDA, apps still need to be written from the start to support it. games will never get boosts from this unless its used to accelerate physx.
     
  8. lemonadesoda

    lemonadesoda

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    You could write parts of gamecode in ATI Stream or CUDA that has nothing to do with physx, e.g. enemy AI, or map load unzips etc. But you will always have to have two code paths, and therefore a larger codebase, bigger or multiple .exes, and the risk of inconsistent behaviour, and risk of more bugs, with alternate codepaths needed depending on what the user has as a currently installed feature set.
     
  9. DarkMatter New Member

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    Yeah I had thought abaut it. AI is definately a place where it could be used, but ONLY in the case of massive "random" responses of multiple instances, because GPUs lack the ability of efficient conditional processes that are so important for AI. The best example, Total War series: GPGPU could be used for the AI calculations made when two formations are fighting, to calculate wihch wins based on the moral, tiredness and other variables, because that's a lot of number crunching. But it couldn't calculate efficiently the behaviour and overall strategy of the AI, which would be far more interesting. The AI in FPS, RPG and driving games can't neither benefit from GPUs. Basically any place where the AI has to "think" the GPU is a bad performer. Nvidia seems to be making their cards better for conditional processes with each generation (GT200 has some massive improvements in that aspect), so that might change, with a capital emphasis on the might (it's unlikely, Ati from what I have read hasn't made improvements there yet AFAIK). The chances for even the dumbest of branch prediction in GPUs is LOOOOOW.

    EDIT: Hmm now that I think about it, it could be used in FPSs to make an extremely accurate visibility system for the AI, so that games like Crysis or FarCry 2 could get benefit. They would be able to "see" every leave and see or not see you (by seing parts of you) behind them, depending on your camouflage, etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2008
  10. Dixxhead

    Dixxhead New Member

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    BTW.

    Why only HD4xxx Series? I reckon even the HD2xxx and HD3xxx should be able to do this stream-processing (they are all quipped with streamprocessors)...

    Hope it gets enabled for my HD2600 too, those "120" Streamprocessors a yearning for some number crunching. (should still give me a 4-5 times faster encode than with a Core 2 Duo @ 2.2ghz)
     
  11. soldier242 New Member

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    it is said that every GPU is supported that has the united shader architecture, so everything with streamprocessor should work, but it will be slow when run on an older ati card
     
  12. Mussels

    Mussels Moderprator Staff Member

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    the problem with the older cards is that they'd be really slow. so their support might come later in order to prevent negative publicity.
     
  13. 2wicked

    2wicked

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    It's a teraflop! lol ;)
     
  14. random

    random

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    4xxx series are the most commercial ati cards atm, I'm having to fight for a second 4850, stock keeps going out and being replaced with higher priced cards because of the financial crisis, regardless I failed to get a second HIS ICEQ4 because the price from 255 has been raised to around 290-310 AUD without shipping and I refuse to pay that much so I got the normal one for 290 including shipping.
    So yes, they'd probably want the people with their latest chips to run it first because as mussels said "the problem with the older cards is that they'd be really slow. so their support might come later in order to prevent negative publicity." I doubt anyone is still buying 2xxx 3xxx series cards, because 4xxx series ranges from 70AUD - 900AUD and in most cases are all bangs for your buck. They really want to impress their latest buyers as some people are just recently switching to AMD ATI products.

    Thats my own opinion and my own input to extend only my own theories to why they're only releasing it with the 4xxx series. Just wanted to share :)
     
  15. mrhuggles

    mrhuggles

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    HD 2900 XT 1gb gddr4 isnt that slow :? it can keep up with the 8800 series cards and they run cuda stuff really well right?
     
  16. Mussels

    Mussels Moderprator Staff Member

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    ATI cant run cuda at all. and it may keep up with a G80 8800GTS 320MB, but it sure wont keep up with the G92 cards.
     
  17. random

    random

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    Thats true but there's hardly any of those cards being sold nowadays, I've looked before since I've wanted one but the price is way too high and its very rare to find a good online vendor selling it. People would more likely buy the 8800 series or 9800 series, since its a kick ass series and cost less with CUDA already supporting it.

    In terms of 2900xt 1gb gddr4 keeping up with these cards. Its really only keeping up and with its price range of 300 - 500 AUD, its hardly worth it since 8800 and 9800 range from 190 - 400AUD.

    ATI can't run CUDA that's why there's firestream. It will all depend on which companies are willing to give AMD the chance to integrate firestream with their applications and so far CUDA/PhysX for NVIDIA wins with a shit load of games/apps using their board's software.

    Even so, I'm still very excited to see how firestream will benefit my crossfire setup :).
     
  18. James1991

    James1991 New Member

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    a bit off topic but can you update your specs so we actually know you have crossfire and with what cards because it says you have one 4850:toast:
     
  19. mrhuggles

    mrhuggles

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    umm, i didnt say it had cuda, i was refering to the fact i hope they support it since it has all the proper hardware.
    also, i dont mean for people who dont already have one[value compareson], i have one, i would rather have an 8800 but i dont and im probably not gonna upgrade for a while :?

    i guess i could be wrong about it having all the nessisary things but,.. i think so?

    2900xt 1gb gddr4 kind of is pretty good at around 1ghz memory clocks or a little less, and 900mhz core. I'd say that keeps up with most things the 8800 series can do :? in games, and in benchmarks.
     
  20. random

    random

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    Updated early just for you :p, wasn't planning to update my specs still I got all my upgrades here.
     
    James1991 says thanks.
  21. Sonido

    Sonido New Member

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    That's my whole point. Many people thought "Oh, Man. I can't wait for the new update so I can play games with 100+ more FPS!". I just wanted to share the information I have gathered here. I also wanted to share the fact that they are making their SDK fully compatible with the Open standard.
     
  22. Sonido

    Sonido New Member

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    Totally correct. But the possibility of using this (for eample--enemy A.I), would mean that games wouldn't become such CPU hungry monsters. Yet, you are correct about the possibility of bugs due to crossing codes.
     
  23. random

    random

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    Drivers give you the increase in performance weather its 1 - 50 fps. The stream upgrade will only be a flop to people who think that it will magically give them 50fps++++.

    Firestream = No FLOP. Just TeraFLOP.
     
  24. Sonido

    Sonido New Member

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    That's why I posted it. But also to share the info with my TPU brethren.
     
    random says thanks.

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