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Audi have successfully made diesel fuel from carbon dioxide and water

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German car manufacturer Audi has reportedly invented a carbon-neutral diesel fuel, made solely from water, carbon dioxide and renewable energy sources. And the crystal clear 'e-diesel' is already being used to power the Audi A8 owned by the country’s Federal Minister of Education and Research, Johanna Wanka.

The creation of the fuel is a huge step forward for sustainable transport, but the fact that it’s being backed by an automotive giant is even more exciting. Audi has now set up a pilot plant in Dresden, Germany, operated by clean tech company Sunfire, which will pump out 160 litres of the synthetic diesel every day in the coming months.

Their base product, which they’re calling 'blue crude' is created using a three-step process. The first step involves harvesting renewable energy from sources such as wind, solar and hydropower. They then use this energy to split water into oxygen and pure hydrogen, using a process known as reversible electrolysis.

This hydrogen is then mixed with carbon monoxide (CO), which is created from carbon dioxide (CO2) that’s been harvested from the atmosphere. The two react at high temperatures and under pressure, resulting in the production of the long-chain hydrocarbon compounds that make up the blue crude.

Once it's been refined, the resulting e-diesel can be mixed in with our current diesel fuel, or used on its own to power cars in a more sustainable way.



http://www.sciencealert.com/audi-have-successfully-made-diesel-fuel-from-air-and-water
 

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Although I welcome the news, 160 liters/day is pathetic. That's 42 gallons. Your average barrel of crude turns into 12 gallons of diesel which translates to displacing 3.5 barrels of anthropomorphic crude. The United States, alone, consumes 19 million barrels of crude per day or 0.000018%. Unless they fix the obvious production problem, this translates to little more than a novelty. Not to mention, it has to be done more cheaply than fracking and shale oils to be economically competitive.

I think there is potential though if this technology were coupled with fusion power. The hydrogen from the electrolysis could also fuel the reactor generating the power needed to keep the operation going. It could potentially answer the environmental dilemma of how transportable energy without the burden of batteries.

Theoretically, I don't see why they couldn't produce gasoline using the same process. Gasoline is just shorter hydrocarbon chains.
 
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Although I welcome the news, 160 liters/day is pathetic. That's 42 gallons. Your average barrel of crude turns into 12 gallons of diesel which translates to 3.5 barrels. The United States, alone, consumes 19 million barrels of crude per day or 0.000018%. Unless they fix the obvious production problem, this translates to little more than a novelty. Not to mention, it has to be done more cheaply than fracking and shale oils.
You do realise that it's a pilot concept, which means the process could be refined (or indeed increased).

At the moment it's utilising renewable energy, but if instead it was using nuclear generated power and a much larger input the output could be greater... This isn't production ready at all!
 

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there seem to basic errors in the text above
Their base product, which they’re calling 'blue crude' is created using a three-step process. The first step involves harvesting renewable energy from sources such as wind, solar and hydropower. They then use this energy to split water into oxygen and pure hydrogen, using a process known as reversible electrolysis.

""to split water into oxygen and pure hydrogen, using a process known as electrolysis""

There Corrected that for you

Further thought

This seems like it is a waste of Time why pursue this (Patent and patent ip Royalties)
when by The first step involves harvesting renewable energy from sources such as wind, solar and hydropower. They then use this energy to split water into oxygen and pure hydrogen

"""Stop there """ that is a clean eco source of Fuel why waste time and energy going further

develop proper Hydrogen Powered /fueled Vehicles
 
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CAPSLOCKSTUCK

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Sorry read as far as


and i Sniggered
will read on

Edit

having read on and sniggered at "Blue Crude"
I have to wonder how green and cost effective this is


almost word for word what i was going to say......... more "wind" power from Audi.

I think the real story here is the surname.
 
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there seem to basic errors in the text above


""to split water into oxygen and pure hydrogen, using a process known as electrolysis""

There Corrected that for you
Well Sunfire (the company doing the work) call it reversible electrolysis (rSOC). I don't know the difference but is more interested to know if the "about 70 % efficiency" include the extraction of CO2 from whatever source they used/plan to use. The mayor advantage I see in this technology is that you end up with a transportable fuel that can use the existing infrastructure (gasoline trucks). The alternative, H2 production via electrolysis, can't be set up wherever the wind blows. Best of luck with decent size pilot plant.
 

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THIS Story is not Science but it is Corporate Bullshit/publicity
 

dorsetknob

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Well Sunfire (the company doing the work) call it reversible electrolysis (rSOC). I don't know the difference but is more interested to know if the "about 70 % efficiency" include the extraction of CO2 from whatever source they used/plan to use. The mayor advantage I see in this technology is that you end up with a transportable fuel that can use the existing infrastructure (gasoline trucks). The alternative, H2 production via electrolysis, can't be set up wherever the wind blows. Best of luck with decent size pilot plant.


Suggest you Read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis#Electrolysis_of_water

If you Don;t trust Wilki information google it elswhere
 

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I wonder how much Mrs Wanka paid Audi

Audi A8 owned by the country’s Federal Minister of Education and Research

for this "research" vehicle
 
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THIS Story is not Science but it is Corporate Bullshit/publicity
Sure it is not new science but if Audi wants to push it into a commercial plant it is good corporate bullshit. I doubt since Sunfire is fishing for new clients. I guess that Audi just did some engine tests to verify that the fuel is good enough for an R8 :).
 

dorsetknob

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I wonder how much Mrs Wanka paid Audi

Probably Nothing its Probably a tax dectudable contribution kickback payola
Advertisement publicity write off

My Opinion

Edit
OH My God
Spouse: Gert Wanka
 
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What is it really, chemical synthesis of complex carbohydrates by using heat and pressure in order to extract energy from it by burning it and using resulting pressure from combustion to create kinetic energy.
Wow, how do they even dare to mention efficiency in this context?
This would be the least efficient way of storing energy chemically in order to use existing technology, but hey - car industry wouldn't have to change a thing.
And what's worse, tax payers are going to have to subsidize all these inefficient practices because they use renewable sources, all just to get a super expensive fuel in small quantities.

The same happened to bio diesel, they surprisingly realized they need to produce vast quantities of sugar plants constantly without pause and the land simply becomes infertile after that much abuse. They would rotate the production and let the land recuperate if they had enough land to take from food production. Even if it were so, it would still be very expensively produced fuel.
 

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Biodiesel in the USA is predominantly made with soybeans. Sugar plants would be made into ethanol. Biodiesel is not viable in the USA right now because it costs 31% more than diesel from crude. If you look on the graph there, biodiesel has never been competitive with diesel. B20 (20% biodiesel, 80% diesel) only beat diesel once or twice and for a very brief time.

But this method...maybe. Look at what is constantly cheap: electricity. I assume pretty much this entire diesel production concept relies heavily on electricity. It stands to reason that perhaps it could end up cheaper per gallon than biodiesel. In which case, it has a bright future, but not when it is tethered to ridiculously expensive wind/solar power generation. The reason why they only put out 150 liters per day may easily be linked to their choice of power to operate it.

As much as I hate to say it, I think this concept needs to go to the big oil industry and see if they think there is a path to this technology being more profitable than crude. Someone needs to look at the mass production costs and market for this stuff to see if it is really worth investing in. If this synthesized diesel can't run in unmodified diesel engines, that puts a huge damper on its ability to penetrate the market. If the modifications are cheap and still allows the vehicle to run off of diesel, it would take off pretty quick.
 
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In which case, it has a bright future, but not when it is tethered to ridiculously expensive wind/solar power generation.

Solar and wind are not expensive, at least not in the US where there are good sites. The issue is variability and lack of storage. Having energy intensive industrial processes that can use the excess is one way to minimize that variability. But there is a cost to not running that industrial process at max efficiency as well.

The question I have is, exactly what is the energy input needed per energy output for this process?
 

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If a production facility was built today to mass scale produce synthetic diesel from carbon dioxide, it would likely be built in conjunction with several natural gas turbines for power (a little cheaper than wind, a lot cheaper than solar). The diesel produced is effectively a battery in itself (more potential energy than any batteries currently in existence by a huge margin).

The question I have is, exactly what is the energy input needed per energy output for this process?
Me too. I want to know the specifics for what it takes to produce that measly 150 l/day.
 
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Sugar plants would be made into ethanol.
Quite right, and I believe both productions came to similar set of problems
The diesel produced is effectively a battery in itself (more potential energy than any batteries currently in existence by a huge margin).
Yeah, it's a fine battery, but you spend much more energy than what is stored, and you get much less energy out of it than what is stored. That's what makes this kind of diesel inefficient, losing energy at all stages of the production process. I'm not counting renewable energy for the electrolysis process, I'm thinking about the energy for heat and pressure used in synthesis. That would be the biggest energy drain.
In the best case scenario without much losses this kind of energy shuffling would be a zero sum game useful for offseting CO2 concentrations in atmosphere.
Natural gas? As the fossil fuel with least impact on atmosphere, you might have something there. If NG would power heat&pressure stage, you might be able to net a total positive amount of CO2 removed from atmosphere. We need some numbers :laugh:
 

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Ask Audi
that is Sales numbers are probably all your going to get
 
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Natural gas? As the fossil fuel with least impact on atmosphere, you might have something there. If NG would power heat&pressure stage, you might be able to net a total positive amount of CO2 removed from atmosphere. We need some numbers :laugh:

Actually you can run cars off NG directly. Surely less waste that using it in this inefficient process. Plus I hate to see NG wasted like this since it is the best fuel for leveling wind and solar.
 

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Yeah, it's a fine battery, but you spend much more energy than what is stored, and you get much less energy out of it than what is stored. That's what makes this kind of diesel inefficient, losing energy at all stages of the production process. I'm not counting renewable energy for the electrolysis process, I'm thinking about the energy for heat and pressure used in synthesis. That would be the biggest energy drain.
In the best case scenario without much losses this kind of energy shuffling would be a zero sum game useful for offseting CO2 concentrations in atmosphere.
Natural gas? As the fossil fuel with least impact on atmosphere, you might have something there. If NG would power heat&pressure stage, you might be able to net a total positive amount of CO2 removed from atmosphere. We need some numbers :laugh:
That's why the cost is so important. If the process of producing synthetic diesel through electricity costs less than diesel refined from crude per volume, the energy cost is worth it. Diesel is extremely valuable because it is stable and very energy dense. It is, in terms of BTUs, the best portable and relatively safe energy source available.

The only way we see any loss in terms of atmospheric CO2 is if we take this synthetic diesel and bury it. Fat chance on that happening. Plants do the same given enough time but they can only make gains when there's no more carbon being taken out of the ground and incinerated.

Fusion would be the best complement to synthetic diesel. Some hydrogen produced from electrolysis could be syphoned off to be fused producing power to run all of the processes. So long as it doesn't run out of basic materials, it should never have to stop except for maintenance.

Actually you can run cars off NG directly. Surely less waste that using it in this inefficient process. Plus I hate to see NG wasted like this since it is the best fuel for leveling wind and solar.
Methane (natural gas) has very low energy potential compared to hydrocarbons (diesel). A tank of diesel can get you over 1000 miles reasonably. A tank of natural gas would be doing excellent to get you half that far; moreover, most CH4 is from anthropomorphic sources which means it contributes to atmospheric CO2 levels. Synthetic diesel, when powered by fission or fusion would recycle CO2 meaning it offsets the need for tapping into more anthropomorphic sources of carbon.
 
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I'm confused about what you mean by this?

there was this Moderator called Ivor Biggun who took offense at people smirking when ever his name was mentioned
His main Culprits were Patrick fitzmichael and Michael fitzpatrick who forever claimed that they were not Gay.


Are You ANY good at Lateral thinking ?

May be its an English thing
 
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there was this Moderator called Ivor Biggun who took offense at people smirking when ever his name was mentioned
His main Culprits were Patrick fitzmichael and Michael fitzpatrick who forever claimed that they were not Gay.


Are You ANY good at Lateral thinking ?

May be its an English thing

Actually, Gert is a predominately male German name, slang for Gerhard. In German it means "brave spear", Perhaps you're thinking Gerta?
 
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