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Avexir Core Series 3100 MHz 2x 4 GB DDR3

Discussion in 'Reviews' started by cadaveca, Sep 2, 2013.

  1. Massman

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    My opinion has not changed. I still believe you have vast knowledge of hardware, and apply a fairly decent test methodology.

    You see, this critique is not coming from a bad place. It is coming from someone who is in disbelief that a well-respected site like TechpowerUP and an author with know-how would do this. I expect this from TweakTown - after all, they are known and loved by the industry because an award and 90%+ is pretty much a given. But at TechpowerUp, I expect the truth. Not inflated numbers and senseless awards. My expections for this site are way, way higher.

    I re-read your review, and I still fail to be convinced or comprehend how it is worth a solid 9.6 and editor's choice. I can see one argument that can be made: this kit can run the DDR3-3100 rated speeds at a nominal voltage of 1.65V, which means you don't have to overvolt. But considering,
    • the flimsy packaging
    • the exhuberant pricing
    • the lack of performance
    • the fact that many single sided MFR memory kits will meet DDR3-3100 with slight overvoltage
    I do not comprehend you being so incredibly positive. You end your review with the sentence "Need help getting your kit set up? Let me know!" - is that nothing short of pitching a sale?

    If your mission here at TechpowerUP (or anywhere else on the internet) is to help companies sell products, let me know. I will look at the content very differently, and consider it an advertorial.

    This review is part of a bigger problem in the IT industry. I go back to what user Bassplayer said earlier.

    As a whole, the desktop PC industry is suffering. Consumers are more educated then they were 10 years ago, and the hardware they bought four years ago is still fast enough for today's applications. People know this. As a consequence, the industry is desperately trying to grab the audience's attention by making everything they produce sound like it's the cure for cancer. Media is expected to follow suit, and jump on the mass-hysteria bandwagon. We are reaching a point where this discourse might become counter-productive. Media are too positive about new products. Consumers would rather read (and follow purchasing advice from) a NewEgg user review than one published on review sites. They will come and check out your review for pictures, but then what you have is simply an advertorial.

    The bottom line is, it does not matter how high single sided Hynix MFR memory is clocked at. It offers mediocre performance for a premium price. That is a fact you can back up with your review data. Manufacturers are trying to make it sound special, because that is their job. "The memory is handpicked and tested" - So what? Still the same performance. "XMP memory works as advertised" - We should reward companies for not making faulty products?

    You see, there is plenty to be said about a USD $2000 (or EUR €900) single sided MFR memory kit. Most of it includes other ways to spend that money on things that offer a far better user experience. If you don't take product evaluations seriously, why should anyone else? What is the whole -effing- point of it then? A website filled with advertorials, describing and highlighting one marketed feature after the other with high scoring figures and endless awards? If so, don't tell me it is a review. Tell me it is an advertorial. Tell me the truth! I would rather read an advertorial with additional factual and informative background information than a review that disregards metrics and ignores the bigger picture.

    My sincere apoligies if I am being too blunt. But rest asure this is the same message I convey for all reviews. I am not just picking on you. As I said before, I hold this site in a higher regard. That is why I am more disappointed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
  2. Aquinus

    Aquinus Resident Wat-man

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    Does that change when you overclock the core? It could be as simple as the CPU not being able to move data fast enough because the CPU can't keep up with the DRAM even if the IMC can run the memory at that high speed. Just because you can run it >2666Mhz doesn't mean that it can utilize it. That would be my guess.
     
  3. DOM

    DOM

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    take it back from 2400 vs 2666 the read and copy drop unless I set the mem to performance in the bios

    and I tried 2800MHz on Samsung chips mem @ 4.8GHz still got a drop in read and copy even with the mem set to performance
     
  4. Aquinus

    Aquinus Resident Wat-man

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    How about 2400/2666/2800 @ stock and a couple clocks in between that and 4.8Ghz? I'm sure there is a point where you can see bandwidth scaling to just the CPU clock for higher memory speeds. It takes a lot of time to get those numbers though. :ohwell:
     
  5. DOM

    DOM

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    Cpu at 4.8Ghz XD
     
  6. cadaveca

    cadaveca My name is Dave

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    I do read your site as well, so I do know what's you are on about here.

    However, you don't understand that I wrote this review before the price was public, and then changed it afterwords. I loved the memory long before I found the price, and I do not feel pricing is accurate according to MSRP. I don't punish Avexir for retailer pricing.

    There is no doubt MFR-based sticks are slower, but for simple playing with board options and overclocking, it's great fun, and highly flexible. The minor performance losses from using MFR aren't enough to reflect heavily in day-to-day use, anyway.


    As a "boutique" item, it's perfect, in my books. I play guitar, and have guitars that range in value from $300 to $30,000. The $300, and the $30000, play the same, and with effects, sound the same. I actually think that $300 guitar has a nicer neck. That's doesn't detract from that $30,000 guitar being fantastic as hell. The Ferrari analogy suits me well.

    Yup. and like a Ferrari, unless you've driven one, you don't fully understand what all the fuss is about. So, Meh.

    twrrd?

    CPU doesn't affect bandwidth so much, now that L3 is de-coupled. It's not like SNB and IVB.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
  7. erocker

    erocker Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I've driven a few. There is no correlation between them and sticks of RAM. None. However, if you put cheap tires from Fleet Farm on a Ferrari that cost 50 bucks each instead of going with a set of rubber that costs 600 bucks a tire, that makes a huge difference.

    I don't think that difference can be made with 150 dollar 2400mhz+ RAM and 2000 dollar 3100mhz RAM.

    That's not to say though, that this isn't truly awesome RAM.
     
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  8. cadaveca

    cadaveca My name is Dave

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    Not for 24/7 use, nope. 1600 MHz is fine, I would not even really bother with 2133 MHz. But you know that's already in my OC guide, since some staff can see it. Frankly, I'd be much happier with 32 GB of 1600 MHz 1.5 V C7 stuff...which I've been asking G.Skill for, for MONTHS. 2666 C10 was the sweet-spot with IVB, for me, for 24/7, and that ram was worth every penny. 2400 MHz does seem the best-optimized for Haswell.


    Other ICs aren't so friendly when frozen, IMHO. But like 50 people around the world care about freezing ram really, so it's not worth the cost to cover it in the review.


    BTW, If someone wants to actually pay me to do reviews, then we can talk about me being biased, Massman. TPU doesn't even cover my power bill, and they only give that little bit so they legally own the reviews. ALso notice I'm not on other sites selling samples like so many other reviewers...Money and sales has NOTHING to do with my reviews, but thanks anyway.
     
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  9. Massman

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    The Ferrari-argument can be made, but then you should have gone for a different review approach.

    For example, you could have tried to come up with a best case scenario. Figure out a situation where this kit is the right choice. Or at least, where this kit is the best in its category. That is how reviews of exclusive luxury cars, like the Ferrari, are done. However, in your review you state benchmark numbers and base you conclusion on figures. Based on the test data your provide to us, which essentially is the test methodology, you can not use the Ferrari-argument to justify an Editor's Choice or those high marks. That is exactly what we mean by ignoring the metrics. Your numbers do not represent the "boutique"-feeling.

    I hope we can agree on this.

    (ps: on this note, I would like to recommend AnandTech's Podcast Ep24. In the first hour, they talk about the infamous Samsung benchmarkboost. Brian Klug makes some excellent observations on the difference between "it feels faster", and "it is faster")

    Now, let's talk about this Ferrari-feeling you have with this kit. As I made clear in an earlier post, the packaging looks flimsy and cheap for a USD $2000 (or EUR €899) memory kit. It does not give me the same high-end feel the Corsair Dominator Platinum packaging does. You have tested it before, I wonder if you agree. Of course we are talking about aesthetics now, so even if you disagree it would be fine. Also, please explain how a memory kit can give you the same feeling like an expensive guitar or a luxurious car. With an instrument or a car, you use a range of senses (vision, auditory, somatosensory, and maybe even olfactory) to experience the product. The leathery smell of the interior, the sound of the engine rev, the G-force when taking a corner at high speed. These contribute to the feeling of a Ferrari. What do you have with this USD $2000 (or EUR €899) memory kit? You put it in your test bed, open CPU-Z and stare at the operating frequency?

    Once again, I appreciate a lot of the work you put into reviews (just saw the MSI G45 review - looks good). It was not my intention to insinuate you were paid off for this review either. I do have a grasp of the mechanics of this industry, and the relationship between media and marketing departments. I have seen it in action from both sides. As I mentioned before, I hold you and TechpowerUP in high regard, and that is why I am so upset to see the high marks and award.
     
  10. cadaveca

    cadaveca My name is Dave

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    Package..agreed. That's part of why it's a 9.6, and not a 10.0. But the package gets thrown away...the sticks, you gotta live with.

    Feeling...staring at it in the system...actually, yes, that is covered by the LEDs on the kit, the "Spirit of Gaming". It's calm, relaxed, and bright, not the furious pace of the Ballistix nor, the weak intensity of the Dominator Platinums. That..the LEDs, the thing that you see reflected on the wall of your PC room through the window of your case for as long as you own the kit..that DEFINITELY takes the cake on the whole Ferrari thing, for me. You hit the nail on the head, thanks.

    FYI, for me, my memory test system sits behind my monitors, so yeah, seeing what they look like for a long period of time did weight heavily in how I feel about them, and the end score. I tried to buy a case without a window..the dude at the local store gave me the case with a window.


    Also, speaking of the Dominator Platinums, I did review those...on a completely different platform. I also changed my reviews quite a bit since then. I also recently RMA'ed those sticks, to have Corsair send me two sets in replacement, charging me for the second set.:laugh: Thankfully, they charged me little, so I'm keeping the second that I didn't want but kit I paid for, and I'll actually be reviewing these Platinum sticks again very soon, on Haswell.;)

    I do think about the score an opinion before posting a review on the site here, long before it even hits the front page. The truth is on this matter, I don't expect us to agree, since I do know that our opinions on the entire state of PCs, and where computing is going, differ greatly. You have a site to run, worry about...I have nothing but a hobby. Reviews...samples...psh, I was buying the same stuff long before doing reviews, and will long after I'm done. For me, hardware is nothing but passion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
  11. Massman

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    Thank you for sharing the insights on the LED implementation. I have played around with one of the LED-kits as well, and I agree that the calm, almost soothing pace is pleasant. For the record, I also very much appreciate you defending your analysis, conclusion, and evaluation here in this topic. Very recently, I had a completely different (horrible) experience with the aforementioned other media outlet.

    What I ask for is an evaluation that reflects the metrics and data. We all know the caveat of single sided MFR memory is performance and price. I believe it is very important to inform your readers about this. A lot of media choose to ignore the caveat, and use performance metrics to justify high ratings. I enjoy reading that you seem to like kit's look and feel. I like the idea of considering the perspective of "boutique"-product. But please have the data and information you provide in the review reflect this approach.

    Some ideas:
    • Were you disappointed when you saw the packaging of this high-end kit? (note: the packaging of the USD $1600 Ares II graphics card is a good example of what a boutique hardware item should come as)
    • Show a picture of the LED light bounding off the walls of the PC room.
    • As you found the LED implementation particularly pleasant after seeing what they look like "for a long period of time", include a video comparison of the soothing, calm LED pace of this kit and the Ballistix and Dominator Platinum.
    • Display the superior overclocking flexibility of the kit by detailing how (much more) difficult it is overclocking with other kits.
    • Measure the hand-picking quality by charting the frequency or performance over operating voltage. If you want to compare to dual sided sticks, perhaps measure the energy consumption. Compare that to the energy consumption of other kits, clocked at the same frequency or running at the same performance level.
     
  12. dumo

    dumo

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    Massman you ask for what? Lol

    MFR is the way it is. It showed up when haswell released. Most can do 3900 cold but very few can go 4000+ regardless of price and rating...As simple as that.

    Performance wise then it depends..
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
  13. cadaveca

    cadaveca My name is Dave

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    OK, boss, but how about you pay me, first. Then you can make demands. Until then...:rockout:

    If you want to give me a job doing this, and pay me well, then you know where my PM box is, or my email is dave@techpowerup.com.

    Honestly, I'd love the financial freedom to do "perfect" reviews, and cover everyone's needs. But the truth is, unfortunately, that is not possible. Simply, I play with hardware, when I can, and report what I find. Hardware shows up on my doorstep, and I review it. There's nothing more to this than that. Pay my bills, feed my kids, I'll do nearly whatever you want.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
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  14. fullinfusion

    fullinfusion 1.21 Gigawatts

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    I dont know what all the crap drops on the review is for.
    Sure ppl have an opinion and can speak it, but really who wouldn't buy these sticks if they were priced at $300? I betcha most would, but it comes down to scratch hmm :rolleyes:

    Personally I love the looks or these sticks, price not so much :laugh:

    But really I find reviews here to be the best on the web :p

    ~out~
     
  15. FireKillerGR

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    Guys, everyone can understand now that Avexir's guys are very brilliant.
    Price was futureproof, these guys knew that Hynix FAB was about to explode xD
     
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  16. cadaveca

    cadaveca My name is Dave

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    Price dropped to 699.90 @ CaseKing.de

    High prices don't bother me since Corsair Vengeance Pro Extreme 3000 was just the same, priced high, then dropped, and I expect the same to happen here. For all we know, the high price is Newegg saying "Screw You" to Avexir, or vice versa.

    LOL.
     
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  17. omnimodis78

    omnimodis78

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    No matter what anyone says, thinks, or otherwise, the price of this product is comical. A joke. If we were nearing April I'd actually genuinely think it was an April's fool prank. I won't preach to the choir here, as I'm sure 99% of us have a solid understanding of how RAM works and what the real-world implications of memory speed are, but I don't think I'll be able to enjoy my lunch if I don't get one thing off my chest: only a first rate moron without the slightest understanding of how computers work would buy RAM for this, heck, even half this much cash. Not to mention, the overview on Newegg does not exude confidence. The features seem gimmicky (Golden Finger Protector...ha!) though I guess at these speeds they would have to give some comfort to buyers so yeah, I guess I'd find some comfort in knowing that an 8Gb of DDR3 ram kit at $2000US come standard with "High performance voltage stabilizing generators". :roll:
     
  18. crazyeyesreaper

    crazyeyesreaper Chief Broken Rig

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    I look at this product as more of a statement from Avexir everyone is arguing price blah this blah that,

    How many ppl bought an ASUS Ares or Powercolor Devil 7990 w.e

    How many ppl buy $2000 memory kits etc the market is small the packaging may suck and the price is comical however its a product that serves a purpose your all talking about it right now, It also puts Avexir on the map as offering an extreme memory kit with lower than typical voltages. Basically from what I am seeing here it gives them a marketing point "Hey check it out Corsair and BLAH BLAH BLAH arent the only ones to offer up serious memory!" But thats just the way I see it. This is an expensive product with big numbers to drive enthusiasts like us to talk about it debate it etc as the more times you drop the name Avexir and there products names the more google loves it and of course the more exposure it gets.
     
  19. omnimodis78

    omnimodis78

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    I see your point. I have to admit I've never ever heard of Avexir (and I build PCs) so I guess mission accomplished in that regard, but I also don't think of this as positive marketing. But the point, from my position at least, isn't so much about the quality of the product or the integrity of the brand, it's about the price, because really, nobody can or will ever tell me that even a $500 RAM is worth it, enthusiast or otherwise, let alone something that's 4x that. Truthfully I'd even raise a brow on a $250 memory. So, yeah, it gets the message out and I guess it introduces the brand to people, but it's still just RAM, and at $2000US it remains to be funny for all the right reasons.
     
  20. erocker

    erocker Super Moderator Staff Member

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    People with no sense of the worth of a dollar/euro/money etc.
     
  21. crazyeyesreaper

    crazyeyesreaper Chief Broken Rig

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    @omnimodis78

    again did you go out purchase the ASUS Ares II 7990 or w.e that was what $1500 a launch? Probably not but you still drooled over it. how about 1TB SSDs when they were first available for $3000 nope again but it helped get OCZ some exposure pushing those limits.

    What about those custom aluminum PC cases that are $400-700 ?

    Many of us would classify this stuff as unnecessary just as Phase change units for cooling CPUs are unnecessary to most however there is still a market for the stuff it does sell and in many cases it improves brand awareness.

    Key example you had not heard of Avexir, even if you find the product rather worthless the fact is you know who they are now ;) thats half the problem solved for them.

    Think of it like a commercial with a horribly catchy tune, you hate the commercial you hate the tune yet you remember both. = increased brand / company / product / w.e awareness.
     
  22. Massman

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    I don't think anyone is blaming Avexir for the high price. People (like myself) are upset that media outlets are endorsing products that offer 'meh' performance for premium price. This is like a GTX 760 at the price of GTX Titan. At least the Ares II came with superb performance at the time, and at least the Powercoler HD 7990 Devil came with "boutique"-looking premium packaging.

    This kit offers neither. But the conclusion, rating, or award does not reflect this.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
  23. leeghoofd New Member

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    Plz single sided MFR performance is the pits... There is simply no way to justify it at any price level. Only thing the single side versions are good for is setting high frequency records, but with zero performance. Splave has shown double sided MFR and yes there's far better performance there.

    Easiest comparison, (don't shoot me here fanboys), is that's the same as benching an AMD CPU at 8GHZ and getting the performance of an Intel at 5.5GHz... at least AMD has the advantage that they remain pretty affordable, something which can hardly be said of any single sided MFR kit over 2800Mhz...

    Dave, fyi Dumo has run many of the MFR sticks to scorching heights and he knows what happens to the RAM performance, depending on the mobo, over 2400MHz. Not this wild guessing I see returning...

    You state your main thing is motherboards and you had to do this DRAM review. This is one of the reasons I will never review Tablets, SSDS as they are not my cup of tea, that technology is not of my interest. Plus I will not allow myself to draw the wrong conclusions or provide my readers misinformation. I rather be hated by the PR guys then to sell my soul to them..

    Now who pays you should be of no concern what you put in your conclusion. You test it and draw objective and honest conclusions. What you have demonstrated in the latest high end RAM reviews here at TP, is not what most expected of you. Hence why we want to warn you before you finally loose the respect of your beloved readers.

    Once you get labelled, there's no way back man... :roll:

    Give the kit a 6 rating, tell it's a great niche product from Avexir, but the performance is not there. Not Avexirs fault, but the ICs... that's the plain and simple truth man, not this marketing/PR we are getting foie grassed here.

    Jeremy had the balls to do it right at overclockers.com, that deserves respect and he got the credits from G.Skill

    Some extracts:

    For the rest of you, those that value performance over frequency numbers, have a look at the frequencies this kit can achieve. Then say “Ooohh” and “Aaaahhh”. Then go buy a cheaper kit.

    Because this kit does what it says it will do and it can overclock to the moon – with regard to frequency only – as designed, I will not give it a “meh.” However, because it fails to do the one thing that higher-priced, higher-spec’ed memory should do – out-perform its cheaper-by-a-long-shot little brother – it doesn’t get to be Overclockers Approved either.

    This is positive criticizm Dave, not a bashing thread... plz think about it and stop being part of the marketing machine plz
     
  24. cadaveca

    cadaveca My name is Dave

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    LuLz.

    If that's what you think...man oh man. :laugh: That made my day. Thanks for the feedback.

    You should be aware that dumo is who I go to for ram help, always. There was no guessing...


    BTW, those madules you guys say are better typically require 2.1 V to reach that "higher performance". That makes these comments rather...well...strange to me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
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  25. leeghoofd New Member

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    Sadly that is how many of us think of you... If you find it funny, great for you... keep on publishing articles as these, we will enjoy it from the sideline... :nutkick:

    There are many websites that are already in this one way street (HH & TT)... Really so sad too see TP turned into the same dead end...

    Really your reply makes me even wonder harder if you ever really explored timings, let alone contacted Ry. I'm really looking forward to this guide you put together.

    Wow do we really need 2.1volts to beat your 3100MHzC12 single sides MFR performance ?... Maybe we did something wrong and can do it with far lower VDimm and beat you in efficiency in everything except raw MHz...

    But I'll leave you to it, enjoy your hard earned salary :D
     
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