Certifications?

[satindemon4u]

Before I begin, I am not sure where else to put this thread so I thought I would slap it here. If need be, please move it.

I just received my Associates in Information Technology and I am continuing on with my Bachelors degree in the same field. At this point though I would like to get at least one certification and eventually a few different ones. The ones I am looking at would be the classic A+ cert and I just began to look into the Windows 7, Enterprise Desktop Support Technician that is offered by Microsoft.

Do these seem like some certs that will help me to land an entry level IT job? Eventually once my skills are further up there I would like to go for the Network+ cert as well.

Thanks guys!

 

[newtekie1]

MCSE Server and Desktop as well as the MCSA Win8 and Win7.

A+ is a waste of time, IMO. Any place worth working for knows that any idiot can study for a few hours out of a book and get A+.

 

[t_ski]

When I was in school several years ago, I took the A+, the basic MS test for Windows 7 and their Supporting Office Applications (IIRC the name was something like that - both MS tests combined got me a Microsoft Certified Desktop Support Technician) and my Net+. I don't think I needed to study for the A+ or either of the MS tests, but Net+ I barely passed (waited too long after taking my networking classes). I still hate networking...

Those certs got me a help desk job fairly easily, and after several years of that I got an Administrator role. Now I do VMware, SAN storage, backups, plus secondary support for dozens of other systems. I'm less worried about certs now and more worried about getting deep knowledge on the systems I support.

 

[satindemon4u]

MCSE Server and Desktop as well as the MCSA Win8 and Win7.

A+ is a waste of time, IMO. Any place worth working for knows that any idiot can study for a few hours out of a book and get A+.

See I was skeptical when it came to A+. I say that because yes it's a very well known cert but on the other end, anyone can pass it for the most part as you stated. Our IT guy at my place of work was telling me that he didn't get his cert in it and could run circles around people in his class (this was during college) that had gotten theirs. So, no A+?

When I was in school several years ago, I took the A+, the basic MS test for Windows 7 and their Supporting Office Applications (IIRC the name was something like that - both MS tests combined got me a Microsoft Certified Desktop Support Technician) and my Net+. I don't think I needed to study for the A+ or either of the MS tests, but Net+ I barely passed (waited too long after taking my networking classes). I still hate networking...

Those certs got me a help desk job fairly easily, and after several years of that I got an Administrator role. Now I do VMware, SAN storage, backups, plus secondary support for dozens of other systems. I'm less worried about certs now and more worried about getting deep knowledge on the systems I support.

So should I do as Newtekie stated and skip the A+ cert?

 

[red_stapler]

So should I do as Newtekie stated and skip the A+ cert?

IMO, the most recent A+ revision that I took at the end of 2014 is a lot more challenging than when I first took it back in 2006. When I worked at Dell, they offered higher pay to folks that had certifications. I feel like it is worth having, even if just to get you acquainted with the CompTIA testing methods.

Plus, with automated resume screening, not having it might get you cut before a human would even look at it.

 

[TheGuruStud]

Download and memorize all of the practice tests. Sure, it'll be several hundred or more answers per test, but it comes in handy. Comptia losers like to throw in really stupid questions (at least in my old experience) and memorizing everything gets you a better score.

They were still using a Windows NT 4 question as of 2005...yeah...comptia is a joke.

 

[Bill_Bright]

What are your long term goals? Certs are nice, but if you want to move into management and higher paying, where you direct the activities of those with certs, press on with your BS and get experiences. Certs are one-liners on resumes. Experiences take up several lines and reflect real life accomplishments. Learn task management so you can become project manger.

Certs are great for right now but they expire. Your BS will never expire.

 

[t_ski]

So should I do as Newtekie stated and skip the A+ cert?

If you think you can pass it easily, why not take it? I agree with Stapler's points below (getting used to the test, screening)

IMO, the most recent A+ revision that I took at the end of 2014 is a lot more challenging than when I first took it back in 2006. When I worked at Dell, they offered higher pay to folks that had certifications. I feel like it is worth having, even if just to get you acquainted with the CompTIA testing methods.

Plus, with automated resume screening, not having it might get you cut before a human would even look at it.

Download and memorize all of the practice tests. Sure, it'll be several hundred or more answers per test, but it comes in handy. Comptia losers like to throw in really stupid questions (at least in my old experience) and memorizing everything gets you a better score.

They were still using a Windows NT 4 question as of 2005...yeah...comptia is a joke.

I think I took it around spring of 2008. I don't recall anything being on NT, but I do agree that they like you to memorize stuff. Things like IEEE standards and what-not.

 

[satindemon4u]

I think I will go ahead with the A+ as planned. My long term goals would be management of some sort but at this point, I need all the help I can get. The problem is (as some of you may know) MOST places want someone with the "3-5 years" of experience or in the very least, have some certs. I figure, since I am having some trouble even getting my foot in the door then the certs may help me out at least on the lower end of things.

 

[HWTactics]

I took the A+ in 2014 almost exactly a year ago.

They threw in a bunch of very vague questions and others where two different answers could both be considered correct. I've worked with computers for years and I passed it either way with my only studying being a few random practice tests, but it wasn't quite a walk in the park either and took some thinking.

It is worth getting at the very least to get your feet wet and start slow, working your way up. Learning how the tests work and feeling the pressure, you know. I think I could not get myself killed on a CBR1000RR, but I started on a GT250R and am having a great time on a CBR500R for now.

 

[Bill_Bright]

The problem is (as some of you may know) MOST places want someone with the "3-5 years" of experience or in the very least, have some certs.

This is where there is a big misconception. Companies know that college grads don't have any real-world experience and the better paying companies don't care. They know then they can mold you into what they need. A cert is no good if it does not apply directly with the company's needs. A degree, on the other hand, tells the company you have the basics and the foundation to build on - something certs don't give you. And a degree means you stuck with the program for the duration, something companies like. A degree means you know how to read and write, organize your time, manage a variety of tasks at the same time.

If you think you need certs, go talk to the companies you want to work for and ask them what they are looking for.

A degree is an investment that pays off in greater dividends your entire life. Certs expire.

 

[Pill Monster]

MCSE Server and Desktop as well as the MCSA Win8 and Win7.

A+ is a waste of time, IMO. Any place worth working for knows that any idiot can study for a few hours out of a book and get A+.

^What he said. Cisco is pretty handy if want to go down the network road.

Many places don't even ask for certs but they want AD/Exchange/VMware
AD is pretty much a must have... and Office365.

Entry level employers won't expect a lot, I mean imaging machines or fixing printers isn't really that hard. lol
If you want to do a cert try and find a place that'll train, cuz MS is expensive. Really expensive. About $5000 from memory. MCSA is entry/mid level, MCSE more advanced.

CompTia is a waste of time in my opinion. You can sit the exams online for about $250.....if you want to.

A degree is an investment that pays off in greater dividends your entire life. Certs expire.

What kind of degree? Computer science? Basically worthless in a Managed Services environment. That's where MS Certification or Cisco/Redhat counts.

Degrees are for programmers or developers, coders, analysts etc.

 

[satindemon4u]

Let's not get into a battle of certs vs degrees lol. I have my associates and will get my bachelors that is for sure. I plan to get a couple of certs as well. Weather we agree or disagree on certs and education or not, I think we can all pretty well agree that it depends on the company you ask. Some will prefer a guy with 3 different certs and no education. The other, may take the guy with no certs and a bachelors degree. (this topic was actually discussed on NPR some time back lol)

 

[Tatty_Two]

My youngest daughter has a 1st Class Honours degree in Networking & System Management, she opted to take the 3rd year as an internship and therefore the degree extended to 4 years but it was the best thing she ever did, she spent that year at the headquarters of Pepsi co Europe as an infrastructure Engineer, she graduated and spent her first year of work in lets call it a "classified Government Department", the job was very well paid, that department paid for her to do pretty much every professional certification you can get that means anything relating to her field, of the year she was with them she spent 5 months spread over it on courses, she has now gone into contracting and has started her own business, her daily rate is obscene to be honest, however and this is the point I am finally getting to (sorry!), the good degree and a years work experience got her a good secure and well paid job, if you want to go on beyond that then the certifications are all important, so for me, BOTH IMO have real value but starting out in a full career the degree first route makes sense to me, ohhhh and she is only 23 now........ #ProudDad.

 

[Pill Monster]

Europe as an infrastructure Engineer, she graduated and spent her first year of work in lets call it a "classified Government Department"

lol when reading that part, my first thought was Edward Snowden and the NSA.

Congrats though.. lol and yeah I guess it depends on the company and who u talk to.


btw @OP, if you're good with people it will go a long way toward getting u a job in support.
Being able deal with a pissed off client is sometimes even more important than having the ability to fix the problem..

At Datacom if we were onsite with a really unhappy customer, we'd just call their own support line and get them to walk us through everything, while placating the client at the same time.
Saves a lot of stress..

So yeah just some fyi...

 

[n-ster]

First thing to do is explore all the different IT fields. Windows server administration, Linux server administration, database administration, Cisco network design, Cisco in the more tech / administration style, network security, InfoSec, IT auditing, project management, Big Data etc are only a few of the fields, there are many more

Look at them all, read about them, look at a few videos, and then you can try and dabble in them to see if you like it. Only then to do start doing certifications, with an idea of what you want to do. If you end up really liking networking, A+ is a waste of 250$ and time, CCENT or Network+ is much better

 

[Bill_Bright]

What kind of degree? Computer science? Basically worthless in a Managed Services environment. That's where MS Certification or Cisco/Redhat counts.

Degrees are for programmers or developers, coders, analysts etc.

None of that is true. Degrees are for those who want careers in the industry and lead the activities of people with certs.

I have degrees and certs and it was the degrees that allowed me to get the better position and more pay from the start. And when you start out with higher pay, you continue to earn higher and higher pay. As I said before, degrees last forever, certs expire. And what is nice about degrees is they don't even have to exactly match. My BS is in Electronics Management with my original goal of managing an air traffic control communications maintenance facility. I ended up working in a major software development company as a team lead setting up network monitoring across 93 counties between 400+ computers and the state's mainframe.

Certs are nice for your immediate job duties (if they apply to those duties) and can help if you need a job now. But they do little for your entire career because they don't form a stable foundation that will last to build upon.

My youngest daughter has a 1st Class Honours degree in Networking & System Management, she opted to take the 3rd year as an internship and therefore the degree extended to 4 years but it was the best thing she ever did

No doubt!

Let's not get into a battle of certs vs degrees lol. I have my associates and will get my bachelors that is for sure. I plan to get a couple of certs as well. Weather we agree or disagree on certs and education or not, I think we can all pretty well agree that it depends on the company you ask. Some will prefer a guy with 3 different certs and no education. The other, may take the guy with no certs and a bachelors degree.

There's really nothing to battle about. The facts are out there. Sure, some with degrees are flipping burgers but most grads with degrees in growing fields have good paying jobs waiting for them, or soon after they graduate. And that often is the result of internships too.

While there are exceptions all around but generally speaking, if you want to be "blue collar", go to trade schools and get your certs. If you want be white collar, go to college and get your degree. That is not saying certified blue collar labor is not respectable and low paying. It is very respectable and good paying but you typically have a limited ceiling. With a degree, you lead and manage too, and generally make considerably better money in the long run.

I speak from both sides of the fence here. I only had certs for the first 20 years of my career then I went back to school and got my 4 year degree. Things changed almost immediately - from job title, job responsibilities, and most significantly my pay and benefits too.

And it absolutely depends on the company. If the company only wants certs and you have your degree, then they just don't want to pay you what you are worth! Go apply somewhere else. Don't give up looking for a good job. If you don't have a good job waiting for you upon graduation, your first full time job is to find a good job. They are out there and you don't generally find them in the want ads.

 

[Aquinus]

There's really nothing to battle about. The facts are out there. Sure, some with degrees are flipping burgers but most grads with degrees in growing fields have good paying jobs waiting for them, or soon after they graduate. And that often is the result of internships too.

This. For 2 of the 4 years I was in school for Comp Sci. I had an "internship" (title was "helpdesk tech", but I was dev'ing and desktop support like stuff.) It was one of those cases where my responsibilities never really changed because the CIO's goal at the time was to let schooling supplement what he needed me to know. It worked out rather well. The best part though was being able to have that money while going through school because even if you don't have the degree, the skills will help you get there.

A degree in IT or certifications tend to be practical applications. Computer Science tends to dive deeper into the theoretical and the applications at a lower level than just using the hardware which is why it is good for devs. Computer Science tends to be math and science heavy. I spent only about 25% of my time in Comp Sci writing code. A lot of it is learning how algorithms work, analysis of both circuits, code, and algorithms to determine complexity and to define how long something will run. So it depends on what you're looking for. For example, an IT degree isn't going to require Calculus, Linear Algebra and Physics where Comp Sci will.

If you want to work with hardware and entire systems that already exist, ITs and certs are probably going to be what you'll want to go with.

If you want to understand why that hardware works at a low level and want to be the person working on the inner working of machines (programming, databases, implementation of any form of software or firmware,) the Computer Science is going to offer you a strong background to do just that.

It depends on what you want to do and what you want to know.

 

[Tatty_Two]

lol when reading that part, my first thought was Edward Snowden and the NSA.

Congrats though.. lol and yeah I guess it depends on the company and who u talk to.


btw @OP, if you're good with people it will go a long way toward getting u a job in support.
Being able deal with a pissed off client is sometimes even more important than having the ability to fix the problem..

At Datacom if we were onsite with a really unhappy customer, we'd just call their own support line and get them to walk us through everything, while placating the client at the same time.
Saves a lot of stress..

So yeah just some fyi...

You would not be too far short.

 

[Pill Monster]

None of that is true. Degrees are for those who want careers in the industry and lead the activities of people with certs.

Which part isn't true? That a Computer Science degree is needed in Managed Services?

Computer Science is all about code crunching and mathematics. Analysts, Programmers and Developers need to know code, and be good at maths.
Managed Services deals with OS deployment and support. They are 2 different ends of the spectrum.

I have degrees and certs and it was the degrees that allowed me to get the better position and more pay from the start. And when you start out with higher pay, you continue to earn higher and higher pay. As I said before, degrees last forever, certs expire. And what is nice about degrees is they don't even have to exactly match. My BS is in Electronics Management with my original goal of managing an air traffic control communications maintenance facility. I ended up working in a major software development company as a team lead setting up network monitoring across 93 counties between 400+ computers and the state's mainframe.

So you're saying a BS in Electronics Management got you a high paying IT job as a team lead installing Network Monitoring software for a big company?
And this degree which never expires in Electronics Management is worth more at an interview than someone who has MCSA, or even no formal qualifications, but 3 -4 years experience?

Mate if u believe that you're only fooling yourself. Unless things in the USA are radically different than NZ....

And yep depending on the sector, a degree can help obtain a better paying start in the industry. If the degree is actually relevant.
Nothing lasts forever in IT anyway, it's evolving all the time..... u constantly have keep yourself updated.




btw on a side note is anyone else have issue with the site? I'm getting a crapton of gateway connection errors.

 

[Aquinus]

And this degree which never expires in Electronics Management is worth more at an interview than someone who has MCSA, or even no formal qualifications, but 3 -4 years experience?

Yes and no. If you go for IT and Comp Sci, there is a good bet that what you're learning is going to remain true for years to come as they tend to offer a lower level description of computers the deep you go. In the US of A, a degree in IT and Comp Sci is much more valuable from the perspective of employer. There are much fewer people with degrees in Comp Sci and IT than there are people who are certified to work on certain things.

I would expect someone with a Comp Sci or IT degree to get up to speed on certs more quickly than any person off the street due to already having a foundation to work off of.

So I think the most simple way to break it down is this:
Certs teach you how to use particular technologies.
IT and Comp Sci teachers you why technologies work and how to use them in general.

Certs don't replace degrees and degrees don't replace certs. There is a time and a place for both.

Mate if u believe that you're only fooling yourself. Unless things in the USA are radically different than NZ....

I don't want to start a fight on this but it very well could be different here in the US of A. People with Comp Sci degrees is in extremely high demand; the market is screaming for skilled developers. I can't go a month without being contacted by a headhunter for dev positions in my region. I just got one a few days ago for a job in Boston. There is something to be said when your skills attracted companies to you and not the other way around. So I'm not going to try to assume what NZ's economy looks like and what is in demand but, the US does have an insatiable thirst for more highly skilled labor in general and degrees tend to offer the most flexible employees in terms of what they can do with respect to skillset.

Nothing lasts forever in IT anyway, it's evolving all the time..... u constantly have keep yourself updated.

Absolutely, but there are a lot of things that don't change as well. IT/CS tends to clarify where that line is but, regardless of your qualifications, you can't be in the industry without learning constantly. I can't agree with that statement enough.

 

[Pill Monster]

Yes and no. If you go for IT and Comp Sci, there is a good bet that what you're learning is going to remain true for years to come as they tend to offer a lower level description of computers the deep you go. In the US of A, a degree in IT and Comp Sci is much more valuable from the perspective of employer. There are much fewer people with degrees in Comp Sci and IT than there are people who are certified to work on certain things.

I would expect someone with a Comp Sci or IT degree to get up to speed on certs more quickly than any person off the street due to already having a foundation to work off of.

So I think the most simple way to break it down is this:
Certs teach you how to use particular technologies.
IT and Comp Sci teachers you why technologies work and how to use them in general.

Certs don't replace degrees and degrees don't replace certs. There is a time and a place for both.


I don't want to start a fight on this but it very well could be different here in the US of A. People with Comp Sci degrees is in extremely high demand; the market is screaming for skilled developers. I can't go a month without being contacted by a headhunter for dev positions in my region. I just got one a few days ago for a job in Boston. There is something to be said when your skills attracted companies to you and not the other way around. So I'm not going to try to assume what NZ's economy looks like and what is in demand but, the US does have an insatiable thirst for more highly skilled labor in general and degrees tend to offer the most flexible employees in terms of what they can do with respect to skillset.

Absolutely, but there are a lot of things that don't change as well. IT/CS tends to clarify where that line is but, regardless of your qualifications, you can't be in the industry without learning constantly. I can't agree with that statement enough.

Well funny you should say that because on rereading thread I saw the "Associates" part.
I actually had to Google the term because I didn't even know what an Associates Degree was. I never even heard of it before.
Turns out it's the equivalent of something we call a Diploma, and down here in NZ/Australia it's not considered a degree. lol

Industry Certification and Diploma's are about on par here, it depends on what sector you're going into. Diploma's are more general usually....

And yeah all good on other points above.

 

[Pill Monster]

Edit: also in NZ Cert isn't often required, I mean it def helps and is asked for at times, but big Companies like Verifone, Datacom, Xerox, and Think Concepts want the experience.

Here's a couple of examples I just randomly picked. Just for fyi nothing else,




This one prob ~45K-50k

No qualifications required......just the skills.

Here if u start at the bottom it's possible to move up the ladder without any formal education. Although some places will pay for training.

 

[brandonwh64]

While going for my associates degree I worked at a manufacturing company as a network tech since I had done it in the past without any certs or degree. What really helped me out was reviewing many of the CCNA/CCNP course documents and answering all the questions that they asked as best as I could. I learned much more on the job than I did doing any of my course work in college or certs. If you want to learn mainly networking I would suggest getting NETsim from boson and reviewing from the lowest cert. The software allows you to build virtual networks that give you a better understanding on how networking works.

 

[Pill Monster]

What really helped me out was reviewing many of the CCNA/CCNP course documents and answering all the questions that they asked as best as I could. I learned much more on the job than I did doing any of my course work in college or certs. .

I agree 100%, so do many employers in NZ.

The degree gives u a good foundation, but its what you learn on the way up that counts.

My system analyst friend 15yrs ago spent 3yrs getting a BCompSc, he started on 55 , went to Tasman Hydro in Aus for a year and came back is now on 85-100 atm.

Straight programmers get 65k with the same qualifications. In support people make 65K with none.







Here's one I just found, entry level Managed Services onsite support, prob 45K?

^I did this a one stage.
I learned a lot too, like when dealing with grumpy clients, no matter what happened it's always your fault. lol




**Actually just thinking about it I lived in the states for about 5 years and 1 thing that stood out was everyone seemed hung up on College Degrees.
No matter what job, had to be a degree. It's like you were unintelligent if u didn't have one,.