cheap rig.

[ToTTenTranz]

OK first off this is this guys first build. He needs a good medium sized PSU for when he upgrades. He's going to upgrade I assure you of that. We all did on our first build. Its like a drug and you know it. If he doesn't right away he can in the future without an issue. I wish I had done the same.

I agree that the option to upgrade is nice (hence I gave the option of the OCZ 600W), but I also know that it's not important for most people -> we don't know to which group evilwillie belongs to.

Nonetheless, it doesn't sound like he's going to need more than a 600W PSU in the next few years. Right now he's aiming for a medium range system.
If he ever goes into a system that requires a high-end (i.e. I'm using a 650W BeQuiet for an unlocked and overclocked Phenom II 720BE), it'll mean his financial situation/preferences changed a lot. Which means, if he gets enough money for dual HD5870s and Phenom II X6 etc, he'll also have money to upgrade the PSU.

Also everyone is suggesting a better CPU because of a few things.
A. The CPU he picked is good for this generation of games. Not the next. Hes screwed in a few months.
B. You replace your CPU FAR less than the GPU. A 720BE will last him years instead of months. The second he upgrades the GPU guess what. The CPU will be the bottleneck. However not with the 720BE

I disagree. I know that the CPU is having less and less importance as time goes. As soon as compute shaders get standardized, pretty much any low-to-mid-range CPU will do for almost everything, assuming you have a decent and up-to-date graphics card.
nVidia knows this because it's what's keeping them alive.
AMD knows this because the first Fusion launched in 2011 will have a simple quad-core like the Athlon II X4 coupled with 480SPs.
Intel knows this because it's making its own GPU targeted at paralel computing rather than standard graphics.

You have a mid-tower, so go with an ATX board.
The Gigabyte GA-MA-770T-UD3P or the ASUS M4A77TD are some good examples.
You are using a dedicated graphics card so the 780G/785G/790GX aren't doing any good.

May I ask what model is that 9800GT?
It might be worth going SLI 9800GT for some decent performance. But in that case you will need to get a board with nVidia Chipset.

The biggest problem with the 770 chipset is that it's very difficult to find one with an updated southbridge like SB710 or SB750. And when you do find one, they're generally as expensive as a 790GX, which usually gets better results.

In the case of 780G, 785G and 790GX, you can also just turn off the IGP in the BIOS and you'll actually get less power consumption that with the 770 chipset. The IGP chipsets are made in 55nm, whereas the non-IGP ones are made in 65nm.

Furthermore, having an IGP nowadays can become a real life saver if something happens to your graphics card. My desktop has an IGP and so does my HTPC, although both of them have discreet graphics cards - they're just turned off.
And since they're DX10/DX10.1 IGPs, they can also be used for additional computing tasks in the future, it's like a free processor that could become usefull.

first of all thx for your expert advice guys.. My 9800gt is a gift from my frend a year ago but if you guys saying that i should focus on gpu to get a better gaming expirience then i dont mind spending 100$ on a new gpu. So how do you think about this?
Phenom IIx2 550
Asus m4785-m evo
4gb ddr3 1333mhz
Sapphire radeon hd 5770
500gb 7200rpm wd hd
Coolermaster nv960 mid tower
Coolermaster 500watts dual rail

I my opinion, that's a balanced system as long as you overclock that Phenom II to over 3.8GHz.
However, I'd change it to an Athlon II X4 620, which can easily overclocked to +3GHz with no effort at all.

I have an Asrock 780G in my HTPC, the cheapest 780G+SB710 I could find, and I overclocked the X4 620 to 3.2GHz without even touching the voltages and using the default cooling.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

The 790GX board is pretty much a paradox.
Why do you want CFX with Onboard in the same chipset?

Because the 790GX is the highest performing Crossfire chipset in its price range.

You don't want extra transistor count when you don't need it, it creates extra heat and power consumption thus affects OC on the ext. northbridge.
At lease this is true for the G35 and G45 chipsets. (Which the entire northbridge is external)

As I said before, that is not true with AMD's chipsets. With the IGP turned off, the 780/785/790GX are the lowest power consuming chipsets from AMD, because they're made in a smaller and very matured process.

 

[crazyeyesreaper]

well last i knew ive had no problems with 790gx boards as far as ocing goes taking my 940be from 3ghz to 4ghz on a asrock cheapo 790gx and this gigabyte i have now runs much cooler and also seems to have no issues now that ive got the bios updated etc and powerconsumption of a disabled gpu not in use is negligable as in were talking single digit watts. but thats besides the point for a good gaming system u dont need a high end board or lots of ram

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131406

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103649

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231193
then with all the above use the 9800 for a few months till the ati 5850 comes into stock and drops in price then grab this when its back at its suggest retail price of $259 or lower
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102857

if u cant wait then a 5770 will do the job as well but in some cases 2 5770s equal a 5850 and in some they lose to a single 5850 depending on game and settings so crossfire is negligable at this point as a single of either a 5770 or 5850 will be more then enough for the time being but 1 5850 will give better overall performance then 2 5770s and be cheaper in the long run

all told at retail price with a 5850 the above build would be $550 in usd
with a 5770 it would be it would be $460

with a 5850 he wont need crossfire not to mention a single 5850 will use less power then 2 5770s that could be a possibility later on

regardless i think hes better off with the above 3 main components and use the 9800gt for the time being eventually upgrade a 5850 and call it a day

 

[Zubasa]

The biggest problem with the 770 chipset is that it's very difficult to find one with an updated southbridge like SB710 or SB750. And when you do find one, they're generally as expensive as a 790GX, which usually gets better results.

In the case of 780G, 785G and 790GX, you can also just turn off the IGP in the BIOS and you'll actually get less power consumption that with the 770 chipset. The IGP chipsets are made in 55nm, whereas the non-IGP ones are made in 65nm.

Furthermore, having an IGP nowadays can become a real life saver if something happens to your graphics card. My desktop has an IGP and so does my HTPC, although both of them have discreet graphics cards - they're just turned off.
And since they're DX10/DX10.1 IGPs, they can also be used for additional computing tasks in the future, it's like a free processor that could become usefull.

I can't agree with you on that chipset.
55nm is just a half node of 65nm, and even on a more advance process the die size of the northbridge is still significantly greater than that of the 770.
The 770 boards I recommended both have SB710 on them (MSI's DDR3 boards also have them), and the Gigabyte board also has 8+2 power phases for superior stability.
All the 790GX board I know have 4+1 phases and no cooling what so ever on them.

About using the IGP for paralell computing, this is a moot point.
The onboard IGPs right now are not even good enough for Physx,
even the lower-end cards like the GT220 can cause slow downs because they can barely do the job.

 

[evilwillie0614]

thx alot for helping me out on choosing components,this is my first time to build a rig. I can afford to buy even 120watts corsair and other components but its not practical if ill buy high end components on my first try and break them right? So as far as this forum goes,most of you say that my setup is a balance and enough for todays games which primarily my concern for my first try. I'll just stick to 790gx mobo for now but im looking forward to use 5770 or 5850 instead of 9800gt. For o.c may be for my second project.. Thx alot guys ive learn alot.

 

[Zubasa]

thx alot for helping me out on choosing components,this is my first time to build a rig. I can afford to buy even 120watts corsair and other components but its not practical if ill buy high end components on my first try and break them right? So as far as this forum goes,most of you say that my setup is a balance and enough for todays games which primarily my concern for my first try. I'll just stick to 790gx mobo for now but im looking forward to use 5770 or 5850 instead of 9800gt. For o.c may be for my second project.. Thx alot guys ive learn alot.

For OC I will say grab the Athlon II 620 which isn't that much more expensive while being a quad-core. Dual-Cores don't really cut it now.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

I can't agree with you on that chipset.
55nm is just a half node of 65nm, and even on a more advance process the die size of the northbridge is still significantly greater than that of the 770.
The 770 boards I recommended both have SB710 on them (MSI's DDR3 boards also have them), and the Gigabyte board also has 8+2 power phases for superior stability.
All the 790GX board I know have 4+1 phases and no cooling what so ever on them.

Well this isn't a matter of agreeing or not, it's a matter of facts.
The IGP chipsets, mainly the newest 785G, have a lower power consumption than the older non-IGP ones.

http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/2856/gigabyte_ma785gpm_ud2h_785g_am3_motherboard/index11.html
http://www.guru3d.com/article/amd-785g-chipset-review-ecs-a785gmm-test/8 (this one shows that the 770 is consuming 10W more than the 785G)

Besides, the matter of the price still applies. A 770 like yours costs as much as a 790GX which supports Crossfire and has an IGP for emergency situations, and costs more than a basic 785G.

About using the IGP for paralell computing, this is a moot point.
The onboard IGPs right now are not even good enough for Physx,
even the lower-end cards like the GT220 can cause slow downs because they can barely do the job.

PhysX is just one example (and a bad one at that) of how the shader processors could assist the CPU.
There's a ton of other things they can be used for. There's sound processing, A.I. and other system related tasks.
And even for physics, the 40SPs @ 700MHz could assist the CPU for smaller calculations if a OpenCL physics engine is built, like the new Havok.

 

[Zubasa]

Well this isn't a matter of agreeing or not, it's a matter of facts.
The IGP chipsets, mainly the newest 785G, have a lower power consumption than the older non-IGP ones.

http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/2856/gigabyte_ma785gpm_ud2h_785g_am3_motherboard/index11.html
http://www.guru3d.com/article/amd-785g-chipset-review-ecs-a785gmm-test/8 (this one shows that the 770 is consuming 10W more than the 785G)

Besides, the matter of the price still applies. A 770 like yours costs as much as a 790GX which supports Crossfire and has an IGP for emergency situations, and costs more than a basic 785G.




PhysX is just one example (and a bad one at that) of how the shader processors could assist the CPU.
There's a ton of other things they can be used for. There's sound processing, A.I. and other system related tasks.
And even for physics, the 40SPs @ 700MHz could assist the CPU for smaller calculations if a OpenCL physics engine is built, like the new Havok.

May I ask what on earth is a "770FX"?
There are no indication what are the 790 and 770 boards used.
The design on the board alone can alrady account for that "extra" power consumption on the 770.
ECS boards are known to be low-cost with very few components.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

May I ask what on earth is a "770FX"?

It's a typo. They correct it in the next paragraph, it's a 770.

There are no indication what are the 790 and 770 boards used.
The design on th board alone can alrady account for that "extra" power consumption. on the 770.

Yes, it could.
But this isn't important, because we can all see that the power consumption is about the same, with or without IGP. Right now the chipset with the lowest power consumption from AMD is the 785G, no doubt about it.

You said that the IGP in the chipset "creates extra heat and power consumption thus affects OC".
It doesn't, not on AMD chipsets. It does make sense, in theory, but it doesn't apply to reality.
It could be the case for Intel chipsets, I don't know about that.

 

[Zubasa]

It's a typo. They correct it in the next paragraph, it's a 770.



Yes, it could.
But this isn't important, because we can all see that the power consumption is about the same, with or without IGP. Right now the chipset with the lowest power consumption from AMD is the 785G, no doubt about it.

You said that the IGP in the chipset "creates extra heat and power consumption thus affects OC".
It doesn't, not on AMD chipsets. It does make sense, in theory, but it doesn't apply to reality.
It could be the case for Intel chipsets, I don't know about that.

Fine. You have your way.
But in that post I am mainly adressing on the 790GX chipset.

On the other hand, the IGP boards are some of the worst built boards by far.
The only good one I can think of right now is the M4A785TD-V EVO. (AM3 that is)

 

[ToTTenTranz]

On the other hand, the IGP boards are some of the worst built boards by far.
The only good one I can think of right now is the M4A785TD-V EVO. (AM3 that is)

Maybe because you're looking at the cheapest IGP boards available in the market?
Those are targeted at low-end systems, no wonder they have cheaper components.

I'm very satisfied with my 790GX M4A78-E from Asus. Cost me 100€ back in April, unlocked the 4th core in my 720BE and overclocked it to 3.3GHz through multiplier and a slight Vcore increase. No complaints whatsoever.

 

[evilwillie0614]

my asus m4785-m evo

Maybe because you're looking at the cheapest IGP boards available in the market?
Those are targeted at low-end systems, no wonder they have cheaper components.

I'm very satisfied with my 790GX M4A78-E from Asus. Cost me 100€ back in April, unlocked the 4th core in my 720BE and overclocked it to 3.3GHz through multiplier and a slight Vcore increase. No complaints whatsoever.

how bout my mobo what can u say bout it? U think its dicent enough? I wont o.c. For now..

 

[Lionheart]

how about the 785G chipset!

 

[Zubasa]

how about the 785G chipset!

The M4A785TD-V EVO?

 

[ToTTenTranz]

how bout my mobo what can u say bout it? U think its dicent enough? I wont o.c. For now..

If you're talking about the 785G EVO from Asus that you mentioned earlier then yes. It's a good motherboard, even if you do overclock in the near future.

 

[evilwillie0614]

785chipset

If you're talking about the 785G EVO from Asus that you mentioned earlier then yes. It's a good motherboard, even if you do overclock in the near future.

thx then.. Thats a relief,i just have to save for my gpu. If ever i dicided to buy high end gpu do i need to switch off igp or its not neccesary coz i think this mobo is crossfire ready?

 

[Zubasa]

thx then.. Thats a relief,i just have to save for my gpu. If ever i dicided to buy high end gpu do i need to switch off igp or its not neccesary coz i think this mobo is crossfire ready?

Just make sure you don't get the M.
Get the ATX version it is much less cramped.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

thx then.. Thats a relief,i just have to save for my gpu. If ever i dicided to buy high end gpu do i need to switch off igp or its not neccesary coz i think this mobo is crossfire ready?

You don't have to, but you should disable it in the BIOS.

You won't Crossfire a high-end graphics card with that IGP. It's not possible. The only cards you can crossfire the 785G's IGP with, are the HD34xx and HD2400.

 

[evilwillie0614]

chipset and crossfire.

Just make sure you don't get the M.
Get the ATX version it is much less cramped.

you mean micro ATX? I think its ATX,and do you mind telling me the comparison between the two boards? And this chipset i think it has 1 pci-e slot so i cant put 2 gpu. "not sure"

 

[Lionheart]

Glad I could help

 

[TheMailMan78]

I can't agree with you on that chipset.
55nm is just a half node of 65nm, and even on a more advance process the die size of the northbridge is still significantly greater than that of the 770.
The 770 boards I recommended both have SB710 on them (MSI's DDR3 boards also have them), and the Gigabyte board also has 8+2 power phases for superior stability.
All the 790GX board I know have 4+1 phases and no cooling what so ever on them.

About using the IGP for paralell computing, this is a moot point.
The onboard IGPs right now are not even good enough for Physx,
even the lower-end cards like the GT220 can cause slow downs because they can barely do the job.

Sorry but thats not true. My mobo has 8+1 power. Also whatever mobo he buys needs to suppot 140w cpu socket.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

you mean micro ATX? I think its ATX,and do you mind telling me the comparison between the two boards? And this chipset i think it has 1 pci-e slot so i cant put 2 gpu. "not sure"

The Micro-ATX is shorter and has less PCI-E 1x and PCI slots than the ATX version.

The ATX version also has a secondary "full-size" PCI-E slot. You can use it to connect any PCI-E card and even a second graphics card, so it supports a "Fake Crossfire" mode, which is to have one graphics card connected to the PCI-E 16x in the northbridge, and the other one connected to the PCI-E 4x in the southbridge. This is Bad®. Don't worry about it right now but it's not worth it to consider doing Crossfire in that motherboard.


In my opinion, both the mATX and the ATX board are good. If the ATX isn't much more expensive, get that one. Otherwise, the mATX has the exact same overclockability and build quality.

 

[Zubasa]

Sorry but thats not true. My mobo has 8+1 power. Also whatever mobo he buys needs to suppot 140w cpu socket.

Sorry of not stating this correctly, I am refering AM3 boards.
I know your board is good, but its AM2+.

 

[evilwillie0614]

crossfire mode

The Micro-ATX is shorter and has less PCI-E 1x and PCI slots than the ATX version.

The ATX version also has a secondary "full-size" PCI-E slot. You can use it to connect any PCI-E card and even a second graphics card, so it supports a "Fake Crossfire" mode, which is to have one graphics card connected to the PCI-E 16x in the northbridge, and the other one connected to the PCI-E 4x in the southbridge. This is Bad®. Don't worry about it right now but it's not worth it to consider doing Crossfire in that motherboard.


In my opinion, both the mATX and the ATX board are good. If the ATX isn't much more expensive, get that one. Otherwise, the mATX has the exact same overclockability and build quality.

so it is better for me to switch off the igp in bios and use single gpu with this mobo i have? Sry for noob question guys but this is the only way for me to learn.

 

[evilwillie0614]

asus m4a79xtd evo

Sorry of not stating this correctly, I am refering AM3 boards.
I know your board is good, but its AM2+.

my mobo is m4a79xtd evo
Its AM3 790cheapset
2xPCIe 2.0x16
2xPCIe x1
2xPCI 2.2
DDR3 1800(o.c) but i think it supports 125w & you guys suggesting me to use athlon IIx4 it has 95w so i think its ok.