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Console Porting is killing PC Gaming PQ.

Discussion in 'Games' started by nt300, Oct 26, 2012.

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Have Games Stagnated, and who would you blame?

  1. Weak Spec Consoles (Age Old Hardware)

    26 vote(s)
    21.3%
  2. Lazy Game Developers (Cheap Console Ports)

    53 vote(s)
    43.4%
  3. Both AMD & NVIDIA (Messed up Drivers)

    2 vote(s)
    1.6%
  4. All of the Above

    22 vote(s)
    18.0%
  5. None of the Above

    19 vote(s)
    15.6%
  1. Kreij

    Kreij Senior Monkey Moderator Staff Member

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    I think you may be wrong here. No, I have no links, just a gut feeling.
     
  2. xenocide

    xenocide

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    I don't doubt that it's close, but people play it out as though PSN and Xbox Live have infinitely more players, and infinitely more people playing at any time. Steam statistics don't count people with Steam open in the background, only people actively in a game while on Steam, and as far as I know they have never released a number for total or active Steam accounts, but I know it's in the tens of millions (judging by Steam ID's--they go up to 8 digits and there are both 0:0:xxxxxxxx and 0:1:xxxxxxxx currently going out to new accounts). Like I said though, MW3 is probably the most popular game on PSN and XBL, and 174k people on PSN just doesn't seem too massive to me. I know FIFA also has a ton of users at any given time because of its popularity with Europeans, South Americans, and European Americans, but I'm sure it's at about 100k people concurrently at any given time.

    But this still doesn't include MMO's, non-Steam games, and non-Digital Distribution Platform games. MMO's alone I'd say count for a solid several million users a day, WoW still has over 10m active accounts, and with MoP having just launched a lot of people have been playing (myself included). On top of that you have games like Rift and TSW which have about a million and several hundred thousand accounts respectively, and then the behemoth that is F2P MMO's. Also, what about LoL? 32m "active" accounts (they define active as any activity in a 90 day time frame which I consider garbage) last time they reported. Yes, on the PC there is always overlap, but there are definitely tens of millions of players on the PC as a platform, and I severely doubt even with the number of AAA titles and console exclusives Consoles can compare to that.
     
  3. Mussels

    Mussels Moderprator Staff Member

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    and now that we have accurate comparison numbers, we find out:

    1. Cod is more popular on console
    2. PC has more gamers
     
  4. BumbleBee

    BumbleBee

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    half a million still play Halo: Reach on a daily basis I think and that is only a top 5 game on 360.

    there are a couple hundred million gaming capable PC but we're comparing ecosystems.. Steam vs. blank
     
  5. xenocide

    xenocide

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    I doubt it's 500k concurrently. I could see maybe 500k unique players per day worldwide. If I recall wasn't Halo: Reach the most recent Halo game, as well as the last one made by Bungie? It's definitely one of those games up there with CoD games when it comes to the polarizing environment that is XBL\PSN.

    I mean, by comparison how many people still play ODST? It's only a year older but from what I've seen Console games are even worse than PC games when it comes to people wanting to play the newest version. Counter-Strike 1.6 is still the 3rd most played game on Steam, despite being 12 years old. With Console games you just don't see that because people generally trade in games like MW2 to get MW3 or ODST to get Halo: Reach, and over a week their communities literally up and vanish.
     
  6. entropy13

    entropy13

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    FM2012 isn't in the top 5 of Steam stats anymore. :laugh:
     
  7. BumbleBee

    BumbleBee

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    I checked early this year and Halo: Reach was doing 100,000 at a time and 500,000 daily. i'm sure it's more or less the same.

    I don't have anything to back this up but I believe more people play Call of Duty than people that login to Steam everyday. it's not that crazy really lol
     
  8. xenocide

    xenocide

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    I doubt that. The 5.4m number is just the highest amount of people on at a single time. I know at minimum there are 20-40m Steam Accounts, not necessarily active ones, but that many exist (and it could be as high as 60-80m). MW3 sold 14.6m copies for Xbox 360, it would be equivalent to just about every person still logging in to play it daily. The game is almost a year old and I guarantee knowing the CoD life cycle a good number of people stopped playing months ago. Every friend I have that played it hasn't mentioned it in months. Obviously that's confirmation bias but I assure you not every person who bought MW3 still plays it regularly.
     
  9. BumbleBee

    BumbleBee

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    Activision sold 18 million map packs to the 23 million people that bought Call of Duty: Black Ops. the new Call of Duty Elite service has over 12 million subscribers! I think people who play Call of Duty are very dedicated.
     
  10. Mussels

    Mussels Moderprator Staff Member

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    5.4 Million on steam, peak, in the last 12 hours or so

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Rei86 New Member

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    Borderlands 2 has more players on the console side than on the PC.

    If we have to to say it generally console gamers will stick around and play a game for a few months and move on to the next big thing.

    PC gamers seems to stick around some more. Small as it might be but they'll stick around a bit longer. However some cult like games on the Xbox 360 and PS3 still has a community that could rival some of the "larger" ones found on the PC.

    Console games after the game comes out is end of support. Developers can patch games and release DLC but that's the end.

    PC gamers if truly in love with a game will support it even long after the developer has forgotten about it. Allowing open ended feel that PC games enjoy compared to the fenced walls of console games.

    We have 30~50 Million Xbox 360s in the wild.
    We have 30~50 Million PS3s in the wild.
    We have 70~80 Million Wiis in the wild.
    The Wii has the lowest software attachment rate and the PS3 is only a few behind the Xbox 360.

    While we'll have more desktop computers not everyone who owns a computer uses it for "gaming." And I don't consider Zynga/Pop Cap stuff to be "gaming." Same can be said about the consoles but they still command more focus from developers than an exclusive PC title.

    Assuming my friend can get you into a lot of trouble.

    MW2 last time I checked still had around 10~30k people.
    BlOps still has a 50k.

    ME3 on both console versions still has people you can play with.
     
  12. xenocide

    xenocide

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    CoD:Elite was a steal, and buying anything less than the year package was financially irresponsible (buying the DLC by itself would have run you 2-3x as much money). Black Ops actually sold closer to 25m (just over 13m for 360 and around 12m for PS3) copies between the PS3 and 360. But lets do the math; 4 map packs for Black Ops, Assume more than even stated sold--24m. That's 6m of each map pack, split almost equally between the two major systems that's around 3m. That means less about or less than 25% of the people that bought the game bought a map pack, and even if everyone of those people played daily, it still would barely match (or slightly edge out) the number of peak players on Steam. I'm willing to guess that not all of those people played daily, probably closer to 33% or less of those people played daily, meaning less than 2m players total, and that's assuming a lot in favor of CoD.
     
  13. Mussels

    Mussels Moderprator Staff Member

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    and before people get too excited with game X winning on console vs PC, lets throw in WoW and other MMO's
     
  14. Rei86 New Member

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    Bleeding subscribers every year:laugh:

    SWOTOR had to go F2P

    Terra probably has 1million + to keep it monthly based

    Probably still under wows 6~8 Million subs but GW2 is probably in the 3million I hope.

    God I wish had the time to play MMOs again...and a MMO that I gave a crap about.
     
  15. xenocide

    xenocide

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    And that means per year half the audience or more have left;

    MW2: 2009
    Black Ops: 2010
    MW3: 2011

    If that's PS3 which has the smaller userbase using the previously stated number--actually bump it to 200k--that means it breaks down as;

    MW2: ~20k (10% of MW3)
    Black Ops: 50k (25% of MW3)
    MW3: 200k (100%)

    Compare that to Counter-Strike which has twice to four times as many users as it's successors (2x Source 4x GO).

    Bleeding subscribers because more games are going F2P and more MMO's are coming out. SWTOR is around 600k-800k, it flucuates. TERA is about 800k-1m. WoW is at 10m still (it dropped down to 9m at one point but leading up to MoP it went back up to 10m), and GW2 is around 2-3m and bounces around almost daily. But that's still ignoring Maplestory, EQ, TSW, Rift, EVE, and a massive number of other MMO's out there.
     
  16. BumbleBee

    BumbleBee

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    I think MMO are dead. World of Warcraft competes with it self and losing subscribers but that won't stop Activision from putting out expansions until they drive it into the ground like Tony Hawk and probably Call of Duty eventually haha

    I don't think The Elder Scrolls online will be successful and I don't think there will be anymore because they cost too much money and take too long to make. The Elder Scrolls Online and The Secret World started development many years ago.
     
  17. Rei86 New Member

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    I don't know what we're arguing about but

    Console game sales > PC game sales

    Publishers are in a business to make money which puts the developers to put resources into console games.

    This won't change till we have a LARGE shift in the market. The only group that's making that shift is crap iOS/Android games and what you would call "casual" f2p games with micro transactions. However the profit is still there in consoles full retail > pc full retail.

    When the 8th generation consoles launch in 2013~2015 we'll probably still see a edge to console sales revenue vs PC sales revenue.

    That's what matters to publishers and that's what will drive console development.

    HOWEVER the 8th generation consoles will all be using AMD GPUs so "ports" for console to console:pC to console to be quite good.
     
  18. BumbleBee

    BumbleBee

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    I hope the fetch quest dies with MMO haha
     
  19. xenocide

    xenocide

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    I wouldn't say MMO's are dead, but they are definitely leveling out. There was a point about a year or so ago where there was a new MMO every month and it made huge promises. They were all MMO's pushed by pretty big studios and were rushed out the door thinking they could beat WoW after Blizzard spent 5+ years setting the bar. They have mostly died out of switched to F2P when they realized they needed a lot of time to catch up, and that's something that users forget a lot. WoW launched with 1/100th of the content is has now, and for some reason people expect a brand new game to launch with the same amount of content? It's stupid to wish for that.

    A game I would keep an eye on is Rift. They are releasing their first expansion which will come with 1 new soul per class, tons of new features and revamps, and 2 new continents that are each equal in size to the current game world. This compounded with the fact that they have released content patches monthly for the last year (only company to do it successfully, WoW still only does it every 3-4 or even 6 months) and actively work with the community to improve the game, makes Trion and Rift by extension an amazing and really impressive company.

    TESO has me a bit mixed, initial reactions were pretty poor but previews since then have been pretty positive, so I'm kind of interested. TSW was an incredible game in a lot of ways, but it was kind of frustrating as well. The in game atmosphere was better than any game I've ever played, and the missions were insane--especially investigation missions, but it was pretty drawn out and started to get tiring. I think the problem with TSW was that EA expected it to be a huge success, but it was clear from day one it would always be a niche product (think EVE online style). EA just cannot handle MMO's; SWTOR, TSW, WAR all failed because EA rushed them out the door, and cut tons of features that people wanted lowering expectations and ruining perception of the games almost immediately.
     
  20. Rei86 New Member

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    Rift doesn't look interesting at all.

    I had a CE of GW2 on order but canceled because of my new job.

    Still eyeing Terra but don't know if it'll be worth my time. Really love that games concept tho.

    Also love how most MMOs are now leaving the Tank-DPS-Healer trifecta
     
  21. BumbleBee

    BumbleBee

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    after seeing Medal of Honor: Warfighter i'm more worried about game design than graphics. this obsession publishers have chasing Call of Duty and World of Warcraft has really taken it's toll. indie developers are the only ones making Survival Horror, J/RPG and Platformers. remember the PS2 era? /cries
     
  22. Rei86 New Member

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    EA should just give it up.

    Should just keep up with the two year development cycle of BF series and just drop MOH.

    Graphics is good IMHO and we should now hit TARGET performance and improve AI.

    The PS4 is supposed to be using a Southern Island GPU and most likely the 7970. It was also rumored to be a APU special since they would ditch the cell in favor for something AMD.

    Xbox 720 is rumored to hit with a modded 6950 with a new IBM Power PC.

    Wii U is using a evergreen AMD (IE HD5000 series) and is running a IBM cpu also.

    So I hope we can see developers on the console side hitting 1080p60. And with all these easy hardware to develop for we should see development being easy and bad port a non-issue. Another thing should be that we should have games scaling well if we go from console to PC.

    But enough about graphics. We need them focusing on gameplay, AI and the story.
     
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  23. xenocide

    xenocide

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    Rift is actually one of the more fun MMO's, it did basically everything GW2 wanted to do before GW2 did it, and in most cases better. Randomly generated world events, allowing classes to fill multiple roles based on what soul they choose, and various other things Rift executed perfectly. I bought GW2, and it's not a bad game, but the only reason I don't feel cheated is because it doesn't have a sub cost.

    TERA is a fickle beast. The combat is a lot of fun, but it can only carry the game so far before you get tired of the fact that it's a traditional Korean MMO, and requires hours of grindy kill quests. TERA is one of those gmes (along with SWTOR) where I may wait a while and go back to it to see the progress later on. It's definitely not a bad game, and it's god damn gorgeous, but it's just not a lot of fun to play in its current state.

    The "holy trinity" argument never made sense to me. And any game that claims to have removed it, just managed to hide it. GW2 for example doesn't really have a dedicated spec or class to tanking (although almost no games have classes dedicated to unified roles these days) but they definitely have classes that excel at it, and there are specific stats you need to stack and skills you need to take to manage it effectively. Rift probably handles it the best, by making every "Class" have several souls that you can mix and match pretty much allows them to make every class viable for every role (except making Mages tanks as far as I know). As someone who played DnD as a kid, I see no reason to shy away from that Tank-Healer-DPS model, it's tried and true, and despite what some people think, a lot of people who play certain roles really like them. I have a friend that loves healing, and friends that love tanking, it's just how they like to play their game.

    The only people that get made about the trinity are selfish dps-only players that don't like how hard it is for them to find dungeon groups because they contribute next to nothing otherwise.
     
  24. xenocide

    xenocide

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    The PS4 will NOT use a 7970-equivalent GPU. It's more likely to be something to the tune of a 7770. I also highly doubt they will use an AMD CPU. It's more likely that they will go for something like a Power7-based PowerPC CPU (so developers embrace the system better due to its similar design to other consoles) and a 7770 level GPU--maybe pushing for 7800-series level performance. The big limiting factors are cost, power consumption and heat. You cant shove a massive power hungry GPU into the equivalent of a Micro-ITX case with minimal airflow, and have it run properly. They would basically end up taking a $300-400 GPU and undervolting and underclocking it to the performance level of a $100 GPU anyway, just to get it to run without catching on fire or requiring multiple power connectors.

    As for the Xbox 720 (Codename Durango), it's rumored to use a PowerPC-based CPU with a similar design to Bulldozer almost, running high numbers of threads through Core's with shared resources. Last I heard they were having some real bad issues with yield, so who knows how it's going these days. Once again, 6950 is pushing it, more than likely if they go for a 6xxx series-based solution, a 6770 or 6850, or a Southern Islands-based solution, a 7770 or 7750.

    The Wii U's a piece of crap.
     
  25. BumbleBee

    BumbleBee

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    slow motion breach, vignetting, checkpoint every 10 seconds, quick time events, hand holding, streamlining, scripting, social networking. all the ropes trying to prevent you trading it in.

    makes me sick :(

    there used to be a huge market for platformers but I guess we should be lucky Rayman and Mario are still around. western RPG keep getting more and more streamlined. Call of Duty influence is all over Resident Evil 6 which is a terrible game.

    i'm looking forward to the Wii U.
     

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