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Criticism of Nvidia's TWIMTBP Program - HardOCP's Just Cause 2 Review

sneekypeet

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a nearsighted guestimate?

Im not here to defend any stance. I am here to say that if you pay out the butt up front you can has all the goodies. If you choose not to buy it, I dont see why the complaint at all. In the end you made that choice.
 
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Your assumption that AA is something that exists in all graphics engines and game titles by default is wrong.

You have misunderstood me. I did not state that AA is something that exists in all graphics engines, but rather something that should exist in all graphics engines. Where we differ is that I place onus on the developer to ensure that this feature is included, irrespective of the engine they decide to use.
 
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I think Gears of War has built in AA but only in DX10 mode (a UE3 game)
 

cadaveca

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You have misunderstood me. I did not state that AA is something that exists in all graphics engines, but rather something that should exist in all graphics engines. Where we differ is that I place onus on the developer to ensure that this feature is included, irrespective of the engine they decide to use.

Yes, this is my thing as well. If they cannot do it, they shouldn't be developing games in the first palce. Basic stuff, AA. Next, they won't be able to get AF to work...

I mean really...you can expect very little from those developers, for sure. If it was any other character than Batman, the game would have been passed over by everyone that hyped it as being so good.
 

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The choice of how it was implemented is the issue. Every other UE3 game that supports AA supports it on both side of the graphics pile.

I'm not saying that them using it was bad...but they have openly stated that they have restricted it to nV cards due to custom code developed by nV.

that's fine...but...

In other words, they couldn't do it. So they suck as programmers. THAT is how it's bad.

It's not making it what prevented them from implementing it on AMD hardware as well. It was testing. Developers did ask AMD to help them implement and test it and AMD refused. In fact, according to the developers, AMD didn't help on the development at all. After the launch AMD did say they would help add it, but afaik it's not been implemented yet and I doubt it will ever be.

Testing and QA costs a lot and independent studios just can't pay for testing. Even the big studios leave features out because testing them costs a lot.
 
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I have to agree with Newtekie. Optimizing a title for nVidia is not the same as crippling ATI. The "crippling ATI" argument has no grounds to stand on. Don't you think ATI would have sued nV for anti-trust by now if that was actually what was happening?

Possibly, but I would need to see the contract between Nvidia and the developer in question and it is certainly walking a very thin line. Moreover, I don't want features such as AA to be dependent upon a bidding competition between the two companies: there are certain things that I expect as given.
 

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The choice of how it was implemented is the issue. Every other UE3 game that supports AA supports it on both side of the graphics pile.

I'm not saying that them using it was bad...but they have openly stated that they have restricted it to nV cards due to custom code developed by nV.

that's fine...but...

In other words, they couldn't do it. So they suck as programmers. THAT is how it's bad.

I only mention that fact that it wouldn't have been there at all to highlight how incapable they are. Just a simple misunderstanding between us.

I'm not knocking nVidia for helping with that either...other than that they shouldn't be messing with stuff outsdie thier closed APIs. Phys-X, CUDA, whatever...sure, go right ahead. AA code...nope.
That's not the fault of nV or TWIMTBP tho. That's purely the fault of the dev house.
 

newtekie1

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That said, AA in Unreal3 engines works in many other titles. The simple fact it doesn't work at all on ATi cards says something far greater than nVidia paying for it to NOT work on ATI cards...

There are also many Unreal Engine 3 games that have no AA at all. Adding AA to the engine is probably pretty easy, but not something that is as easy as flipping a switch in a control panel and expecting it to to work with all hardware. The issue with not working with ATi likely comes down to a simple driver issue. There are plenty of things that work perfectly fine on some things, and not on others. We see games that function properly with one driver, and crash constantly with another.

To expect something like AA to just work on all hardware without it being tested or even developed for that hardware and it's drivers in any way is a little inane.

Which, whether you want to argue that they paid for the development, so it's thier right to restrict it's use, or that the gpu architectures are different, so require different code, doesn't matter. The damning fact is that had nVidia NOT helped develop the AA code, the developers would have been forced to either write code for both, or none at all.

You are right, and since they was a console port with no AA in it to begin with, it likely would have been the second option, none at all. And in that situation I'm with Benetanegia. I'd rather see it available for some, then not at all.

I mean, I more than welcome nVidia to get developers to work with Phys-X. But AA is a different story...they just simply shouldn't have messed in that part of the game. The act of helping develop the code forced a situation where the developer would naturally expect ATi to provide the same help, rather than relying on thier own in-house resources. The complaint has nothing to do with the code itself, but the actual effect on the companies' mentality when dealing with ATi that is the issue.

I don't think that is reasonable. If nVidia wants to add features to the game, they should. I don't believe developers or the industry is expecting it. It isn't like the developers are sitting there demanding money from either company to include basic features of the game. NVidia saw an oppertunity to improve gameplay for their customers, and they did it.

nVidia jsut shouldn't have developed code for something as basic as AA in unreal engine. It's really not that hard to do, or they'd be the only Unreal game with AA...and they certainly are not.

Developing AA is one thing. Developing AA that has next to no performance hit is another, and what was done with Batman. Most AA implementation in Unreal Engine games take a rather large toll on performance, mainly because they aren't actually using the engine itself to enable AA, but instead simply enabling AA through the graphics driver.

DX10 was delayed due to nV not supporting the API properly. DX10.1 was barely a whisper, again, thanks to a lack of nV support.

DX10.1 was mainly performance enhancements done to DX10 after it was released. You make it sound like DX10 was cut back be cause of nVidia, that simply isn't true. DX10 was what DX10 was supposed to be, but Microsoft saw a way to improve on it, similar to DX9 and DX9b/c.

In terms of DX10.1, nVidia didn't need it. Their hardware was already faster then ATi hardware even with ATi hardware supporting DX10.1.

nVidia truly is ruining the industry, and in more ways than one. They are helping the software development-side stagnate...these developer's getting help for things like AA really should be more than capable of doing such things themselves, but due ot a lack of basic skills, they had to go elsewhere.

It's really sad that a developer can't even implement AA, because they are incapable of hiring the proper staff. It's a sad excuse for nVidia-only code...the entire house's management should be fired, as far as I am concerned, for delivery of a pathetic product.

It isn't just a matter of hiring the proper people, and having the ability to do it. There is also the issues of time and money. Two things that are ever shrinking in the gaming industry, especially during the economic times we've seen recently. Publishers are pushing developers to make games quicker, and developers are facing smaller budgets. That is where nVidia comes in to develop for them, and provide money for developers.

I mean, really...99.9% of the AI does exactly the same thing. Sure, it's pretty...but my god, I cannot believe the hype this game got. But then again, I know how all that works, and why it was so critcally acclaimed. And I am NOT fooled.

Your opinons on the gameplay really have no business in this thread.

LoL. Ati doesn't support PS3.0? You sure about that?

Look at what I responded to. Yes, I'm sure the X### series did not support PS3.0.

Sometimes I think infractions should be handed out for inability to read and use basic comprehension skills in a discussion.:banghead:
 

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a nearsighted guestimate?

Im not here to defend any stance. I am here to say that if you pay out the butt up front you can has all the goodies. If you choose not to buy it, I dont see why the complaint at all. In the end you made that choice.

My point is that ATI is no better than Nvidia when it comes to ethics. The price of Cypress didn't exactly go down when they didn't have any competition. Hemlock is another story all together.

Also at least Nvidia supports developers. I hear that working with ATI isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world to do. Do you ever wonder why OCCT gpu memtest only works with Nvidia? Nvidia gave the author the hardware for testing unlike ATI. I've heard other stories like this about ATI.

I'm not a big fan of Physix and other closed standards since to play games like Mirror's Edge the way that they are intended I need to use Nvidia hardware but the point that you made about hardware could also be applied to the software in question.
 

cadaveca

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Testing and QA costs a lot and independent studios just can't pay for testing. Even the big studios leave features out because testing them costs a lot.

See here:

That's not the fault of nV or TWIMTBP tho. That's purely the fault of the dev house.

Yes, exactly. Like I siad, I'm not knocking nV on this. I'm trying to place blame where it belongs.

You guys are just too used to me bashing nV here. LoL.
 

Benetanegia

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Possibly, but I would need to see the contract between Nvidia and the developer in question and it is certainly walking a very thin line. Moreover, I don't want features such as AA to be dependent upon a bidding competition between the two companies: there are certain things that I expect as given.

If the lazyness of developers implementing AA is your real issue, then this is not the thread you should have created. And it should have been created long long long ago and there should be no mention to Nvidia at all, because Nvidia has no blame on the issue. There are dozens if not hundreds of games that lack AA, most of the ones that use UE3, so you should blame the state of the PC gaming or something instead of blaimng one of the very very few companies that are really pushing for better PC gaming.
 

cadaveca

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Look at what I responded to. Yes, I'm sure the X### series did not support PS3.0.

Sometimes I think infractions should be handed out for inability to read and use basic comprehension skills in a discussion.:banghead:

Uh, you owe me an apology.

Get your box geared up for the future of games with blazing fast shader performance and watch your characters sweat with Shader Model 3.0 Shaders create the surface properties of 3D objects. The Radeon X1900 has 48 shader processors that work in parallel with Shader Model 3.0 to render complex object surfaces—such as glistening sweat on a character’s skin—with 128-bit floating point precision.

http://ati.amd.com/products/radeonx1900/index.html

This is it. The new Radeon™ X1800 Series hands you the visual and performance possibilities you only dreamed of from a PC graphics processor. It has been designed with a radically new ultra-threaded 3D architecture and Shader Model 3.0,

http://ati.amd.com/products/radeonx1800/index.html

Every card since the X800 has supported PS3.0. Lack of support on legacy products in unimportant.
 

sneekypeet

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dave he has ony 3 ### meaning 850/800 or similar cards. At this time the 6800/7series already had it.

none of my X850 XTPE's has SM3....didnt run the putry dragon test in 3DM06 till I got a 7600
 

cadaveca

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Sure, but I could do without the attitude, SP. You know what I'm getting at. ;)
 
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If the lazyness of developers implementing AA is your real issue, then this is not the thread you should have created. And it should have been created long long long ago and there should be no mention to Nvidia at all, because Nvidia has no blame on the issue. There are dozens if not hundreds of games that lack AA, most of the ones that use UE3, so you should blame the state of the PC gaming or something instead of blaimng one of the very very few companies that are really pushing for better PC gaming.

The developer is not blameless in this or similar cases and if they simply need more money from Nvidia to include AA or beautifully textured water, then they need to improve their act; it is Nvidia's willingness to occupy the position of sponsor in these particular contexts that I also find censurable.
 

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Sure, but I could do without the attitude, SP. You know what I'm getting at. ;)

sorry! I wasnt giving attitude, I was correcting your post, that is all, just trying to clear up the miscommunications.
 

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The developer is not blameless in this or similar cases and if they simply need more money to include AA from Nvidia in orde rto be able to include AA or beautifully textured water, then they need to improve their act; it is Nvidia's willingness to occupy the position of sponsor in these particular contexts that I also find censurable.

That, in no way, is a negative trait. ATI should step up and offer testing and tweaking help on their hardware as well.

As far as I am concerned, ATI's lack of dev help is the problem here. The dev teams have less time and money than ever (relatively speaking) to push titles out the door. They need all the help they can get.
 

sneekypeet

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oh well hell, then Im not sorry:p
 
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That, in no way, is a negative trait. ATI should step up and offer testing and tweaking help on their hardware as well.

As far as I am concerned, ATI's lack of dev help is the problem here. The dev teams have less time and money than ever (relatively speaking) to push titles out the door. They need all the help they can get.

We agree, to an extent, but disagree in those areas where a company should be expected to pay to have features, that I view as standard, enabled for their hardware. That in no way allows ATI to evade its reponsibility to cooperate.
 

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He said X### NOT X####. That is X800, X600... Nvidia had PS3.0 on their hardware GF6800, ATi was like 6 months late with PS3.0 hardware. Games like Oblivion lacked proper PS3.0 for that reason, for example.

Yes, the issue with his statement is in how he chose to knock Gt90's statement.

GT90 is in essence right. PS3.0 should have been reserved for DX10, but nV pushed it forward, and then didn't need to support DX10, as everything was already in DX 9.0c. They screwed DX10 by doing that, and THAT is was GT90 remember's reading, and how nV split DX10 into two seperate parts.

The X1900 bridged that gap in the APIs(and why I brought it up), but we could have had a full-fledged R600 instead, had nV waited for DX10 for PS3.0. R600 was actually a very old design, tweaked. nV delayed it's release by getting PS 3.0 into DX9.0c, so ATi had PS3.0 hardware in development already...nV was just first to market with it.
 
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We agree, to an extent, but disagree in those areas where a company should be expected to pay to have features, that I view as standard, enabled for their hardware. That in no way allows ATI to evade its reponsibility to cooperate.

It is a business and not a moral institution to build a game. A developers budget and overall payout are the only thing that matters to them. PC gaming development doesn't meet budget as easily as console games because aside from MMOs, it is PC gaming that isn't as profitable as console gaming. So when a developer needs extra money to meet their budget will they ask ATi who offers them nothing? Nope, they ask Nvidia who ponies up the cash and gets a reward in response with better support. It isn't that difficult to understand. ATi is just cheap with the devs and therefore they will make their customers deal with decreased support.
 

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GT90 is in essence right. PS3.0 should have been reserved for DX10, but nV pushed it forward, and then didn't need to support DX10, as everything was already in DX 9.0c. They screwed DX10 by doing that, and THAT is was GT90 remember's reading, and how nV split DX10 into two seperate parts.

Excuse me? :laugh: DX10 was not even a project when DX9.0c was released...

You claim to be a non-biased person, but you always come up with this pure inventions where Nvidia is the omnipresent bad guy.
 

cadaveca

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Excuse me? :laugh: DX10 was not even a project when DX9.0c was released...

You claim to be a non-biased person, but you always come up with this pure inventions where Nvidia is the omnipresent bad guy.


Uh, actually, it was. Back then it was called WGF, and was part of "Longhorn". Circa 2001. DX 9.0c released in 2004, 3 years after work on DX10 began.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Windows_Vista

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX

And I make no claims to not being biased...many times I have claimed to be ATI's #1 fanboy. Uh, are you OK, man? I mean look at my sig...why would i have that there, if bias wasn't part of everything I write(and everyone else too, for posterity).
 
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