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Crossfire+physics (havok)

Discussion in 'Graphics Cards' started by Lazzer408, Jan 31, 2007.

  1. tkpenalty New Member

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    Wow Lazzer add more pics for the club later! I think physics will have an impact on 3D Marks 06's score though. Whats with that fan over your Blue orb?

    *Drools*

    PEPSI =D

    Hey lazzer get two VF900CUs-wait actually get three when DX10 comes out; to add to the ridiculousness of three GPUs.
    Once DX10 arises perfectly (around the end of the year) my X1950PRO will be my new physics card =D.

    X1k series is the only GPU series that can do Physics, Aegia Physx are virtually GPUs without graphics outputs, with a huge pricetag, their performance is appaling when compared to a X1600.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2007
  2. Lazzer408

    Lazzer408

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    I'll let u know if I find out. ;)
     
  3. Lazzer408

    Lazzer408

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    So far it seems to have no effect. 3dmark06 was 8795. My higest was 8906. Scores vary from day to day. I didn't think it would really do anything. Good for braging right I guess. :D I don't even know if it's handing physics to the x1600 pro or not. I have no way of telling or knowing what's being processed where. For all I know the x1950 pros are doing all the processing. The two of them might actually process physics faster then a x1600 pro but I doubt it if there busy rendering. I'll get some benchmarks from FEAR and see what that tells me.
    I wish ATI provided more information about it. Some things just don't work on there own. I might have to tick a box somewhere or something. If anyone has friends at ATI pick up the phone. :)
     
  4. tkpenalty New Member

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    lol... more like the Physics core isn't even getting a workout. FEAR uses the CPU to process physics, something like Ghost Recon WILL utilise it... Crysis undoubtedly, from the graphics of Crysis videos... its not running in SM4.0 mode.. but... 3.0, that motion blur is just to add realism.
     
  5. AshenSugar

    AshenSugar New Member

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    aega cards wont work in crysis, they arent supported, nore in fear last i checked, GRAW was one of the 2 games that supported it :/

    as to sm3 vs sm4 from what i have read and seen it dosnt add any quility boosts or fetures that cant be done with properly emplemented sm3

    we shal see, we shal see :)
     
  6. tkpenalty New Member

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    yep... SM 3.0 is as real as real gets. The DX10 lips of ruby is just a more complex reflection algorithm, HDR, etc; multi layered.
     
  7. AshenSugar

    AshenSugar New Member

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    most people seem to like the old one better then the new one, really i think both are blah, i have seen better demo chicks ;)

    my buddys got an aega card, hes gonna ebay it because the 3 games hes been able to run on it(ones in beta) all take a MASSIVE perf hit when the cards in use, also the beta games going to support gpu as ppu so sall good.
     
  8. tkpenalty New Member

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    Yep... but they have done it with nvidia ones with hacks and etc, and the results arent too promising on the nvidia side. For ATI X1k and over its native support.

    DX10 is focused on Physics not graphics, remember that Flight simulator 10 thingy? DX9 can do that in 3.0 mode. The so called "DX9" picture would be SM2.0.

    I frankly don't find any point in SM4.0, only difference is a better HDR Algo, etc. Models will be more detailed-not because of SM4.0.
     
  9. AshenSugar

    AshenSugar New Member

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    and the funny thing is that ati's x1k cards can already do 99.9% of what dx10 specs requier, thanks to heavly programable shaders :)

    i have a feeling we will see even more kool fetures for our x19*0 cards over then next 6months or so, like when the new aa/af methods are made official :)
     
  10. Lazzer408

    Lazzer408

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    FEAR supports Havok and Havok is supposed to support x1000 series physics. I just woke up so give me some time. Gains would be minimal at best. I just want to see it work. Cell Factor and Crysis may need alot of physics power compaired to what games have now.
     
  11. Wile E

    Wile E Power User

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    Actually, DX10 has no physics APIs built in. It's still all third party. There was a write up in either CPU magazine or Maximum PC (can't remember which) a couple of months ago detailing this.
     
  12. tkpenalty New Member

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    Sure man? Some PC magazines think Physics is new and Aegia is new.

    Physics gives the X1k series a new life. OMG MY X1950PRO IS GROWING UP IT IS LEARNING PHYSICS.
     
  13. Wile E

    Wile E Power User

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    Oh, I agree that physics is definitely gonna be a factor. I was just stating that it's not built into DX10. We'll have it, but it will be a third party add on. Much like the current Ageia and Havoc and such. So we'll still have to choose our poison, Ageia, ATI, or nVidia physics.
     
  14. AshenSugar

    AshenSugar New Member

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    acctualy tk most people i know are more insterested in being able to slap in a x1300xt or 1650xt with their current card, and if amd is smart they wont let it work with nvidia cards tho im quite sure it could be done.

    im just hoping the things i have read and heard are true and any board that can hold 2+x1k videocards can be used with the ppu on gpu setup, my current board would be good for that, i could eather use a 16x card on the sli slot OR use a 1x slot above or below my videocard , acctualy the 1x slot version may be the ticket for pure ppu use, pei-e 1x x1300xt as a ppu, humm, imagin if they made it so u could use multi cards for ppu's, 2 x1300xt 1x cards and 1 x1650xt 16x card :p talk about a hot system *pun intended*
     
  15. AshenSugar

    AshenSugar New Member

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    acctualy if you read up ms is trying to consolodate that under the next revision of dx10, so that everybodys cards can be used via a dx api.

    so ageia,ati,nvidia would all beable to do the same job, just diffrent perf and feture levels.

    nvidias not looking to hot on gpu as ppu, infact i read someplace they dumped the idea all togather because the 6 and 7 seirse just dont got the horsepower to so the job, they are working on adding a ppu to the gpu or 2nd chip ppu to their cards, tho it takes alot of time to properly desigh such things and then make a working driver.....oh shit they dont ever got a working 8800driver for vista yet :O

    amdti is way ahead of the curve here, they already have this in a working state, and will bring it out when the software supports ready(games)

    Fear from what i have read would need a major patch to add ppu havoc support, and i dont see VUG doing that, maby to fear2/3 but not to current fear, main reasion is VUG sucks, they are french bastages who only care about $$$, and a gpu as ppu havoc patch would cost them$ without making them alot of $ back.

    we will see games that patch up we will also see games that are made with the new havoc that support this as well as other games that use the x1k gpu's in various ways, thanks to ati/amd opening the ability to use the gpu in diffrent ways i would bet we see some game engines that offload some of the heavyer game stuff to gpu without hurting gfx perf much, leaving the cpu for stuff its good at.
     
  16. Lazzer408

    Lazzer408

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  17. AshenSugar

    AshenSugar New Member

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    ok i will say this again lazzer so you may eventuly understand.

    yes fear uses havok phsyics, but they licence a spicific version, the version used for FEAR is OLD it in no way support ppu as gpu or ageia, to update fear to use the new version VUG would have to PAY MORE $ to licence the new version from Havok then spend alot of time making an update to acctualy make the game take advantege of these fetures, VUG isnt going to do that, it wouldnt make them any $, and VUG ONLY CARES ABOUT $$$$.

    think of havok in terms of a game engine.(version numbers are examples)
    VUG payed for version 1.5 of havok it dosnt support anything but cpu based phsyics

    version 2.0 supports ppu as gpu, but requiers VUG to pay 250k to buy a licence to upgrade FEAR and other havok games they made, then vug has to spend another 20-30k to program/code and test an update to add these fetures to FEAR, but fears an old game, sellng for 20bucks, VUG looks at that and then says "fuck no, we arent gonna make alot of green off it, so what if the users want it, we already have their green"

    or in the case of UnrealEngine and atari
    they made an sp game based on the 2003 that dosnt support use of vehickles

    then they deside they want to add a an MP portion and it needs o support vehickles, they look at cost vs reward and deside to get the cheapest update they can because the updated version with mp is being made to sell for xbox live, because they will make XXXXX by spending XXX


    VUG is HORRID, as bad as EA or ATARI, infact i would trust EA more then VUG or Atari, your only hope of seeing a patch is if they make a full retail expantion for FEAR that has it built in, guess u can start praying :p
     
  18. tkpenalty New Member

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    So far in terms of physics processing, Aegia and Nvidia are similar in terms of power. ATI Just wreaks havoc and totally kills Aegia and Nvidia GPU/PPUs. ATI Physics is native as I said. Lazzer408, even if you have Physics enabled you won't see any differences; havok engine doens't use Physics cards YET. What the X1600 PRO is right now to you is an ultra cheap but powerful Physics card (In comparison with Aegia), that has no use yet. I doubt the requirements for Crysis are that big anyway. So hold off until Crysis, etc comes out.
     
  19. Wile E

    Wile E Power User

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    They've been talking about it, but there's been no commitment yet. As of DX10.1, there's no native support. There's no telling how long MS would take to implement such an API set.
     
  20. AshenSugar

    AshenSugar New Member

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    yeah, i know Wile E, but i also know ppl who work for ms and well ms wants to try and get everybody on the same page for dx, no user spicific extentions, no more uniq hardware support(ageia, x-fi, exct) they want everybody to be the same so its easyer for game developers to use dx then ogl, dispite ogl2.x being more advanced then dx10.x

    its a smart move in some ways, but in others its not, removing hardware acceleration from audio is kinda stupid imho, same with their orignal plan to cripple ogl under vista.

    im just hoping the opensorce communit gets wize and makes their own version of dirrectX packege, opengl for gfx, openAL(or better) for audio, the rest im sure excists, such as a dirrect imput equivlant.

    im not a huge fan of linux and such, BUT if they got smart and made an all in one pack that let game devs build a game as easly as they do for windows it would be steller, and would mean that non windows os's could start being taken seirously for gaming!!!!!
     
  21. niko084

    niko084

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    So from what I'm getting here the whole concept of Havoc is useless unless you literally are stuck with 2 mis matched ati x series cards and can't crossfire them, and the single one isn't powerfull enough to run the game itself...

    Say you were playing a Havoc game that did have the new updates, and have a ohh 1650pro and a 1600pro.. And your single 1650 couldn't hold the game well...

    Is this pretty much what you are saying here?
     
  22. AshenSugar

    AshenSugar New Member

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    niko, phsyics cards add more detail to games, and can take load off the cpu by doing all phsyics work on the gpu insted of using the cpu, so the gfx look better without needing a hugely more powerfull cpu or gpu.

    you can use CF+PPU as well, say you have x1950xtx cards in cf and an x1300xt for PPU, thats a good combo, or an x1650xt as ppu(even better) this means the game can look 10x better and feel 10x more real because emviroments can be more real.

    also thanks to how amdti are doing the x1k cards drivers game and software makers can take dirrect adavantege of any extra power/cores/cards you have to run other prosesses on them, think of the gpu as a VERY powerfull multicore FPU capable of huge ammounts of math.
    crysis already seems to beable to do this from what the interviews/videos have shown/said, any excess gpu power can be used to run phsyics(at least on ati cards) so u toss in say a x1300xt or x1650xt card and hopefully can let crysis use the extra lower card as a ppu leaving ur cpu free to be used for AI and other prosessing, things the cpu is acctualy good for (phsicis isnt a strong point of current cpu's but x1k gpu's seem made for it)
     
  23. niko084

    niko084

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    Ya I already knew the most of that, but he threw me off was this...

    "So far in terms of physics processing, Aegia and Nvidia are similar in terms of power. ATI Just wreaks havoc and totally kills Aegia and Nvidia GPU/PPUs. ATI Physics is native as I said. Lazzer408, even if you have Physics enabled you won't see any differences; havok engine doens't use Physics cards YET. What the X1600 PRO is right now to you is an ultra cheap but powerful Physics card (In comparison with Aegia), that has no use yet. I doubt the requirements for Crysis are that big anyway. So hold off until Crysis, etc comes out."

    He was saying Havok engine doesn't use Physics card.. Or are we here talking about standard PCI Physics cards like the 1 by Nvidia and ATI?
    Because I was taking this as that Havok wont make your do physics..
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2007
  24. AshenSugar

    AshenSugar New Member

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    no, havoc is the first phsyics engine/emplimintation thats going to oficialy support ati gpu ad ppu, the 2nd gpu litterly becomes a Phsyics card, one thats far more powerfull then the ageia cards are currently.

    havoc dosnt support any ppu cards yet, that versions still not in use, but will be soon im sure, nvidia is said to also be working with havoc to make it compatable with their cards, tho i also have read that there have been ALOT of problems doing it on nvidia cards due to driver support issues(stupid nvidia)
     
  25. niko084

    niko084

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    Now I'm understanding.. I did not know havoc was a full on engine.. I was under the assumption this was just a company that was using the plus sides of having a ati x1000 series card. So basically if I didn't do crossfire yet, but got my x1950pro, and my new mainboard my x1300xt would make a nice second card for games like GR:AW and a few others.
     

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