1. Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Does 120hz give FPS gamers online an advantage? if the game supports 120 fps

Discussion in 'General Hardware' started by Phusius, Sep 9, 2012.

  1. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    20,892 (8.00/day)
    Thanks Received:
    7,469
    One could argue that by allowing to use the skill more effectively, the FPS improved our skill because of more effective practice.
  2. Aquinus

    Aquinus Resident Wat-man

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    5,943 (6.54/day)
    Thanks Received:
    1,916
    Location:
    Concord, NH
    That's why by the time your brain even has received the information from any given frame, on a 120hz monitor, (8.3ms between frames) and lets assume your reaction time is better than the average person, say 100ms (I think average is something like 150-200ms, I need to find some sources on that one though). By the time your brain even processes that first frame, your computer has already displayed the next 12 frames (or 20-25 if you're an "average human")! Sorry, but frame rate isn't going to help a typical non-genetically enhanced human being. :)

    Oh yeah, that's not including the time it takes to tell the muscles in your arm and hand to move the mouse or press some keys.

    The only thing that I can see a 120hz display helping with is reduced ghosting and providing a more fluid picture for rapidly changing events and that only helps you if you can decipher everything going on at any given moment.
  3. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    20,892 (8.00/day)
    Thanks Received:
    7,469
    Play BF3 at 30 FPS and then play it at 60 FPS and tell me the same. Never mind 120FPS.
  4. 3870x2

    3870x2

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,875 (2.08/day)
    Thanks Received:
    689
    Location:
    Joplin, Mo
    30 to 60 will make a huge difference.

    I cant say that 60 to 120 would make nearly as much of a difference, but I could see it doing some good.

    I remember seeing 75 back when I had a CRT, and it was very noticeable.
  5. qubit

    qubit Overclocked quantum bit

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    Messages:
    9,821 (4.05/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3,480
    You can try figuring it out by working out all those milliseconds and concluding that it doesn't help, but you need to actually try it to see the benefit. Twice the temporal resolution really does make a difference to your gameplay. Of course, your system must be able to animate at 120fps too, or it's a bit wasted. Another positive effect of this, is that if the system drops a few frames, so goes down to 100 or even 90 fps, then the judders aren't nearly as noticeable as on a 60Hz monitor, because they're so much smaller and happening at a much higher frequency already.

    I have a 120Hz monitor and will vouch for this.
  6. newconroer

    newconroer

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,879 (1.11/day)
    Thanks Received:
    271
    Show me the top one hundred shooter players in any given game and have them all use CRT vs LED at 60 or 120 hz and they'll be no discernable pattern in their performance.

    120hz is mainly useful for 3d gaming. The percentile of people that can notice the difference visually between 120 and 60 is even less than that of 24 to 60 and it depends on the rendering engine in question and the software being displayed.

    I find that most people convince themselves there's a difference so they can justify spending the money on multiple high end GPUs and spiffy 'backlit LED' 3d monitors alongside.

    Sounds almost like you're hinting at suggestion on whether you should buy one?
    If so you should be more worried about other pertinent factors.



    Having a VG278 as well, I can attest that 60hz on my 30" at 1600p is still more enjoyable than having a handful of games running true 120 on the 27"
  7. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    20,892 (8.00/day)
    Thanks Received:
    7,469
    Yeah because pro gamers didn't stick with CRT's well into the LCD era because they loved lugging around 1337 CRT's.
    phanbuey says thanks.
  8. Live OR Die

    Live OR Die

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    3,888 (1.48/day)
    Thanks Received:
    383
    No its more people how use vsync give there selfs a disadvantage, I play a lot of FPS and also live with the Tearing for more smooth movement and i use a 120hz screen and pop 200+ frames.
  9. johnnyfiive

    johnnyfiive

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2008
    Messages:
    3,891 (1.70/day)
    Thanks Received:
    876
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    My answer would be... it depends on the game. Fast paced FPS games, it really does help. Games like Quake (any of them), TF2, Tribes Ascend, CoD series, etc. When I was playing quakelive on a regular basis, it helped my overall accuracy about 5-6%. Most notably, it helped my lightning gun percentage a good 6-8%. 30-32% to 35-40%.
  10. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    20,892 (8.00/day)
    Thanks Received:
    7,469
    Quake.......when I was playing Quake 3 I was if I may say epic. Never was really that good at a game before or since. Quake 3 and TheMailman were one.
  11. phanbuey

    phanbuey

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    5,200 (2.13/day)
    Thanks Received:
    973
    Location:
    Miami
    See you're right - so if I have the same reaction time as an average human, but i just got the first frame 8.3ms faster than the guy next to me, i have that extra time to react. He has to wait 8.3ms before he can even start to react.

    It is precicely because you're the bottleneck that you need to be constantly fed ahead of time, since the speed of the game depends entirely on you.

    Now he can compensate for that 8.3ms with skill and and reflexes, but it is harder. Also if i am in mid aim, and i am trying to intersect my crosshairs with the other guys face, and I get notice 8.3ms earlier that i have reached my target, I will be less likely to overshoot and my accuracy will increase. So not only do i have more time to react, but also better accuracy, and that is an advantage.

    I also have more information regarding the speed and pattern of motion - i have double the datapoints with which to predict a moving target, and any patterns with which it moves. All of these things added up make a noticeable difference. And yes, any pro FPS gamer will tell you how they cried when they went to LCD.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
    qubit says thanks.
  12. de.das.dude

    de.das.dude Pro Indian Modder

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    7,506 (4.99/day)
    Thanks Received:
    1,947
    NO NO NO. anything above 30-40fps your eye or brain cant detect.
  13. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    20,892 (8.00/day)
    Thanks Received:
    7,469
    Maybe your brain.
  14. phanbuey

    phanbuey

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    5,200 (2.13/day)
    Thanks Received:
    973
    Location:
    Miami
    That is absolute nonsense.
    qubit says thanks.
  15. qubit

    qubit Overclocked quantum bit

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    Messages:
    9,821 (4.05/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3,480
    I "can't detect" anything above 20fps, but no matter. ;) :laugh:
  16. Easy Rhino

    Easy Rhino Linux Advocate

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2006
    Messages:
    13,390 (4.76/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3,223
    just a note that the time it takes for your brain to tell any muscle in your body to move is not currently measurable.
  17. Drone

    Drone

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Messages:
    2,492 (1.75/day)
    Thanks Received:
    1,196
    If you sit in pitch black room in absolute darkness and then suddenly for 1/100th of a second light turns on and off would you see it? I know I would see it. Some trained pilots can identify 200 fps.
    erocker says thanks.
  18. erocker

    erocker Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Messages:
    39,521 (13.50/day)
    Thanks Received:
    13,920
    Very good example. :toast:
  19. D007

    D007

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,060 (1.13/day)
    Thanks Received:
    374
    Location:
    Pompano beach, Florida
    I lol.. Been playing games since games were games.. Talking pong here.. It is noticeable.. A drop from 60 to 50 IS noticeable.. Once you learn how to perceive 120 hz.. The drop to 60 is noticeable as well.. Try it yourself if you really want to know. Speculation doesn't cut it.. Go play at 120, then play the same game at 60.. Tell me you don't see it.. I'd have to call shenanigans though..
  20. qubit

    qubit Overclocked quantum bit

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    Messages:
    9,821 (4.05/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3,480
    Yup, of course you can see it: 50fps on 60Hz = judder, since frames are being dropped. Annoying, uneven judder at that.

    Of course driving a 60Hz screen at 60fps will of course look super smooth. However, what do you think happens if you drive a 120Hz screen with a 120Hz video signal, but with 60fps animation? (You can do this in nvidia's latest drivers.)

    You get judder too, only now that it's at 60Hz, you perceive it as a doubled picture instead, smoothly animated! And the faster the motion is the more obviously doubled the image is. This perception is accurate too, because doing this actually means that the motion stops every other frame, since it's shown twice and that's exactly what you see.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
    D007 says thanks.
  21. D007

    D007

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,060 (1.13/day)
    Thanks Received:
    374
    Location:
    Pompano beach, Florida
    I feel a little smarter after reading this... :toast:
    qubit says thanks.
  22. phanbuey

    phanbuey

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    5,200 (2.13/day)
    Thanks Received:
    973
    Location:
    Miami
    your brain doesn't work in FPS, it is constantly taking in light data, there is no real FPS limit that you intake, there is a certain FPS that looks like smooth motion. But you are constantly taking in input so you see a change right away, it just takes those ms to register.

    Thats why 120 FPS is more about control input and reaction times than it is about 'smoothness'.
  23. cmaxvt

    cmaxvt

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    158 (0.20/day)
    Thanks Received:
    11
    Location:
    CA
    Plain and simple, YES, it is the biggest upgrade to First Person Shooter gaming you will ever make. If you have the power to do it (big strong GPU, a good setup, etc) you will notice a massive amount of improvement in accuracy, speed, etc. There is a massive improvement in how well the game plays.
  24. cadaveca

    cadaveca My name is Dave

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Messages:
    13,759 (4.54/day)
    Thanks Received:
    6,801
    Location:
    Edmonton, Alberta

    Hrm. I agree with you, but...


    We have differnt input devices, mice, monitors, keyboards, etc..and all of these "refresh" data with different intervals.


    I play Bf3 right now on a 60 Hz, 2560x1600 monitor, and I literally feel a difference all the way up to over 120 FPS.

    My mouse polls at 1000 Hz.

    My keyboard @ 125 Hz.

    My screen @ 60 Hz.


    Do the math, so that all those refresh rates sync up, and you have "The SECRET NUMBER OF GAMING LIFE".

    THen, find out the user's "Hz", and then match that up to the periphrials...


    DO you get where I am going here?


    NOw, does a 120 Hz monitor make a differnece?


    YES!!! It changes that special number!!!

    It does NOT matter who is viewing it!

    It does NOT matter where your "EYE" can perceive that difference.

    It matters in that it changes the sync'd polling rate between all devices!!!


    Now ,tell me what marketing dude has said anything remotely similar, and point me in the direction of that company, so I can buy their stuff, since they get "it".
  25. phanbuey

    phanbuey

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    5,200 (2.13/day)
    Thanks Received:
    973
    Location:
    Miami
    except all of you devices go to a central hub that does the processing... so its is not like they need to 'sync' up as if they were in a chain. Also your screen gets input from the hub at maximum speed, it is limited only by what it can display, irrespective of the other device polling speeds (hence benchmarks rendering 100+fps on a 60hz screen, and games responding at 100FPS on a 60 Hz screen).

    The input devices I agree with, but again - it is a hub and spoke model, so your keyboard will not affect your mouse.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guest)

Share This Page