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em64t not true x86-64?

Discussion in 'General Hardware' started by SpoonMuffin, Jan 17, 2007.

  1. SpoonMuffin New Member

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    http://www.chip-architect.com/news/2003_04_20_Looking_at_Intels_Prescott_part2.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EM64T#Differences_between_AMD64_and_Intel_64



    http://www.chip-architect.com/news/...tation may cost less then 2 % extra die space

    Also Intel has 36 bits physical address size whereas AMD has 40 bits


    so if i understand this correctly, intels "64bit" truely is the hackjob that many amd fans have been saying it is from the start.

    weird how they got all that $ for dev and they cant even make a true 64bit core......explains why amd wins when running in 64bit mode when compared to intel

    now we need g2 and k8L dam it!!!
     
  2. niko084

    niko084

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    The Itanium and one of the lines of the Xeon are the ONLY true 64bit Intel chips. EMT64, just means they support 64bit apps... Basically its a bunch of bs to sell new chips, and they really walk their way around that direct question.

    So in turn NO EMT64 is not 64BIT!
     
  3. DanTheBanjoman Señor Moderator

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    The first EM64T CPU's apparently lacked a few instructions, as far as I know this is an old issue and has been added a long time ago.

    And yes it was a hackjob, a great one though. Intel added it in like 9 months from scratch.

    They have had a true 64 bit core for many years, AMD however has non, just 64 bit extensions which is different. Next to that Intel had their own extensions which is said to be in some P4 cores but never activated. It's also speculated that it didn't work correctly yet. However because AMD launched it's 64 bit extensions while Intel said it wasn't needed yet (which they are right at since who runs 64 bit now? PAE works fine for more RAM so 64 bit is still unused) However Microsoft created Windows X64 for AMD's extensions and said to Intel that they wouldn't make a 3rd 64bit Windows, so Intel was forced to abandon their own consumer 64 bit extensions and copy AMD's extensions. So why did AMD outperform early EM64T CPU's? Because Intel was forced to adapt at lightning speed.
    Long story short, it was agreat piece of marketing of AMD which gave Intel a kick in the nuts.

    However it's a very old story and doesn't apply anymore. Enjoy your K8L;)
     
  4. DBH New Member

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    Isn't core duo 2 native 64 bit though?
     
  5. DanTheBanjoman Señor Moderator

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    There is no true 64 bit Xeon, all of them use the very same EM64T extensions as their desktop counterparts.
    And as for EM64T being marketing bullshit, very true. AMD started that, Intel had to follow the marketing hype. Intel clearly stated that 64 bit is not needed for consumers. Intel just joined AMD's game.
     
  6. SpoonMuffin New Member

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    amd64 chips are true 64bit chips when used with a 64bit os, they "mode switch" to 64bit.

    ia64 is a true 64bit chip from the ground up, sparc(niagra?) is tru64bit,

    xeons used em64t, hence from what this stuff says they arent "true 64bit" as defigned by x86-6 specs layed out by AMD( the ones who invented x86-64 )

    intels "copy" of amd64, dubed em64t is from what i understand some weird kind of emulation in hardware that uses 32bit alu's to do 64bit work, as such its not a "true 64bit x86" chip, this is from what i can tell why intel chips loose ground against amd64 chips(k8 chips) even conroe with its "updated) em64t(also called something like em32e or something like that)

    i know intel invented their own 64bit-x86 design but ms went with amd(probblybecause they where ready to run and intel wasnt in any hurry for 64bit-x86 because "nobody needs it" as intel said since k8 was announced/hit the market.

    most ppl still dont use 64bit os/apps but thats due to ms not doing jack shit to promote xp x64, they didnt get hardware makers behind them, they didnt push to get drivers for 64bit avalable , they just let it languish as they worked on vista, their next planed "upgrade" to windows(and yet another bloatfeast!!!)
     
  7. SpoonMuffin New Member

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    seems to apply since conroe as intel fans will tell you KILLS/rapes/pilleges amd in 32bit, but in 64bit they just shrug and ignore the fact that it dosnt perform as well as conroe 32bit perf would emply.

    and amd/intel have cross licencing that lets each of them"Copy" eachothers instructions, its why amd chips have sse1-2-3-4 and intel chips can have em64t(amd64"support" )'

    it just seems strange that if its a "true" amd64 emplimintation used in those em64t chips (conroe included) that you dont see the perf gain you would expect.

    as stated, lack of 64bit os support(windows drivers fort x64 suck ass to be kind) is why nobodys really running 64bit windows other then a few crazy people who think its "better" and the people running 64bit vista.

    and yes intel had been working on 64bit x86, but it wasnt working as they wanted, thats why they fuse dissabled it in prescott cores, as i understand it from people who work for intels dev dept(they order parts thru the shop i work at because its close to home) it was kinda like ia64's first chips, didnt work out as well as intel had hoped, this isnt unexpected since they where trying to adapt *shudders* netburst to alot of new uses because they wherent being allowed to work on what they really wanted to make(they wanted to work on what we now call pentium-m and core/core2 years ago...but marketing still insisted "clocks sell" )

    what i think would help current chips the most would be if ms pulled their heads out of their asses and re-designed/programed windows removing all that lagacy bagege like dos and 9x game/app support, do what apple did with osx let people install a compat tool, hell make it so that it installs a "virtual pc" like setup with windows 9x or dos or whatever you need on it, thats able to take advantege of gfx acceleration and such, unlike osx it wouldnt have a huge perf hit because it would still be on a pc platform(x86/x86-64) and would also remove alot of buggs caused by supporting old lagacy apps/code in the core os, Perf could be improved massivly for newer apps, hell i have seen what can be done with older computers.

    little exparment for anybody intrested.

    grab vector linux soho live 5.1.2 link
    install it on an old windows pc, use enlitenment desktop insted of KDE, now compare that to windows 98/98se/ME/2k/xp on the same system, compare performance as well as quility of the desktop experiance, i have a laptop thats a 233mhz p1 with 2xxmb ram, 6.2gb hdd, 4mb chips and tech video, it runs BAD to be kind under windows, slow, buggy, and cant run any current windows apps(no office for example) now look at the same system under vlsoho, its fast, responcive, has up to date office apps, also its got another kool thing, crossover is installed and guess what, ms office is installed!!!!

    its used by my family as a wordprosessor and audio player, try playing audio with 2k pro on it and injoy the system studdering (sound and windows use)

    im no lin lover, infact most distros are a pain, but since a few people i know dirrected me to vl i have found it to be the best distro for low end systems, specly net boxes for people who shouldnt be allowed online(spyware/addware/ARGGGGGG)
     
  8. SpoonMuffin New Member

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    i know a few people using unix/linux who would dissagree with the "64bit is bullshit" part, they do gfx/renderng/recording/editiing work and the extra ram and perf they get out of using 64bit *nix does help them, not as much as it could if the apps where more mature and optimized, but again, its still a gain, and 8+gb ram really does help when your dealing with large media files.

    also know of a few companys running 2003 64bit for large database/AD servers where alot of ram REALLY improves perf(talking 16-32gb on a server) pricy yes, but when it means you need 4 servers insteed of 6 to allow everybody to work without waiting for server delays its worth it.

    and yes i know intel came up with a way to address more then 4gb ram years back (liket he pentium2/3 days) but it performed poorly, and requiered a custom windows kernal and apps and then normal 32bit apps couldnt take advantage of it because they can only use the first 3gb system ram
     
  9. DanTheBanjoman Señor Moderator

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    Well, it was Niko's statement that it's a bunch of bullshit, which for 99% of the users is true. The few cases where it is useful aren't mostly things end users do. I personally don't have a huge databaseserver or work with tremendous files that need to be loaded in the memory all at once.
    Indeed, though if pricey isn't the issue there are countless of other server class platforms that outperform x86-64 with ease. IA64 for example is great as database server. (in fact it's one of it's main uses)
    That's PAE, and programs can address past 4GB of RAM, Windows has a special API for it. At least some SQL servers support it. However many programs which could use it do not. Blame the programmers, not Windows.




    Anyway, the Intel not being fully compatible with x86-64 is an old story and is not true anymore for newer processors. And the fact remains that home users do not need it, for the few enthusiasts that really need it there are other more advanced platforms.
    Then again nobody needed 1GB either in the late 80's. So in due time every computer will be sold with 16GB of RAM and we will laugh at that because we all have 64GB. Specially because Windows 2016 requires at least 32GB of RAM to work flawlessly.
     
  10. SpoonMuffin New Member

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    by then we will also use solid state hdd's that are uber fast!!!!

    may endup being no ram just uber fast drives that work as both, that would rock really!!!!! everything effectivly stored in ram!!!!!
     
  11. Tatty_One

    Tatty_One Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Lol thats going backwards, thats how things used to be, in the early days (early 80's) there were a number of puters on sale that effectively had no hard drives, they had a small ROM module supported by 8.....16.....32.....or 64MB RAM! many without floppys but with cassettes, ahhhhh nostalgia, matchstick men was about the best detail you would get in a game and if it had a bouncing ball then that was yer ram used up!
     
  12. niko084

    niko084

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    The Dual Core 5000 Xeons are 64bit, along with the new Itanium line, they are full blown 64bit. If you read between all the little lines on intels site, you can figure it out. I spent about 4 hours doing it trying to figure out exactly what emt64 was.
     
  13. SpoonMuffin New Member

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    as intel prooved with p-m and core, sometimes you gotta go "back" to move forword, solidstate drives are avalable now but the price is INSAIN!!!!

    honestly, in a few years when they work out the tech to give drives long life using flash type media OR just use sdram style memory with a powerbackup built in, then bring the price down it will endup being ALOT faster and cheaper then current mech hdds, also lower power draws, i saw some beta drives in a demo from seagate and hitchi, GREAT stuff, mixed flash/sd/mech units that can preload large ammounts of data into fast access memory and then access less used stuff normaly, all done without the user knowing it(no special drivers or raid type setups needed) pure flash media drives, pure sdram(ddr/ddr2/ddr3/whatever) based units(fastest but also least secure and long lived)

    would rock to have 2 of the 64gb drives hitchi was demoing, they could saturate the sata2 buss(each could saturate the buss alone) put ur os on them and, damn imagin the boot times and data access times!!!!, like having ur os on one of those ddr drive cards :D
     

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