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Enthusiasts Debate on Hardware Technology

Discussion in 'General Hardware' started by T4C Fantasy, May 15, 2012.

  1. theoneandonlymrk

    theoneandonlymrk

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    what?? i must have missed the fact he was being even more erelivant to future tech, silver chips , as in innards, which would be stupid since most are gold or IHS which is even dafter as its unimportant once you put a waterblock on a chip:p
     
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  2. T4C Fantasy

    T4C Fantasy CPU & GPU DB Maintainer

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    silver is better than gold for this sort of thing since it conducts better and you could get more power without the need of a waterblock compared to copper or gold

    and its the materials that make the technology more efficient in the first place

    im not stuck on silver, rather suggessting an alternative premium for enthusiasts it would cost more money and hardcore enthusiasts will not have a problem with the price
     
  3. erocker

    erocker Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Aquatuning sells a silver plated waterblock. :)
     
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  4. T4C Fantasy

    T4C Fantasy CPU & GPU DB Maintainer

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    Last edited: May 16, 2012
  5. theoneandonlymrk

    theoneandonlymrk

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    yeh thats not news to me, what would be is if they had miniturized it(the laser down to the right or any sort of useable size, and also made an actual circuit that did something And ,Nand anything ,wed then be on the way

    and a silver anything(cpu or gpu cooling based) is never going to beat a H100 at cooling said chip for the money, and waters deff cooler anyway in both meanings:) silver chip innards nah ,they use all sorts of wierd metals(Gallium) now Because they are better then Anything else, for purpose..... and in cost><....

    both gotta be happy with that:)
     
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  6. T4C Fantasy

    T4C Fantasy CPU & GPU DB Maintainer

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    this is not true and the proof of this was shown when they released the 3770k doesnt matter what cooling system you have it will never beat the cooling of a 2600k because of the simple fact that the materials before the ihs are different. you can overclock higher with an 2600k with less heat on lesser cooling ^^. but more to the point silver doesnt just have to be for cpu it can be used to transfer data faster in a pci e lane.

    i in no way included silver heat sinks to beat water cooling, im strickly talking about copper vs silver conductivity which silver has no rival when talking about metals
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2012
  7. niko084

    niko084

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    I'll take a dive in here-

    XDR memory?
    Well considering it's being used in the PS3, I would say that might say something it.

    Would optical technology surpass copper technology?

    Few things here, copper technology is limited by voltage as well as anything "speed at which the current flows" if you made a cable network operate at 10,000 volts odds are you could get some higher performance *while at the cost of extra noise*.

    Onto optical, the issue at hand here is we need to create a source to not only ping faster and accurately! We need a sensor to sense it faster, and accurately! Then... When you increase the flash rate "bandwidth requirement" you will need a better and better cable to be able to get it through "noise" free.

    Are you speaking about using silver contacts on a board or something? If that's what you mean, simple cost... Even in manufacturing, warranty? Silver doesn't hold up very well, it's very soft, so many issues. With really what benefit? Not a lot...

    Tungsten plated heat sinks?
    The plating I don't think does anything, at least not much to count for in itself, now if you made the heatsink of pure it would be a different story, cost and weight wise as well. It adds to durability, I think it looks nice *mainly because of all the low quality copper polishes*.

    Tri-Gate transistors?
    Well I'm an engineering double major. Yes I think it's very realistic and lets be honest, if it isn't it will soon be brought to life and Intel will have some pretty serious answering to do won't they?

    Pace of technology?
    I think it moves faster than we can keep up (no big surprise there). There is also some concern that our continuing reliance on technology is making us weak to our natural environment and that will be the end of our race... That's a fairly valid argument if you think about it... Scary eh? Me, I'm just here for the ride :toast:
     
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  8. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

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    Cost. XDR is Rambus and Rambus wants money. JEDEC oversees SDRAM specifications and there's no unreasonable licensing fees which promotes competition. Competition means cheaper.


    We're talking about Rambus, yeah? Wishful thinking. DDR SDRAM has worked out pretty well so I don't see any reason to replace it.


    It already has (e.g. Infiniband) but it is cost-prohibitive. I am hopeful that costs will come down over time.


    Gold is the best conductor of electricity and some electrical contacts are already gold plated. Everything in the computer would have to be upgraded in order for any component to benefit and that simply isn't practical.

    Graphene is the best material to make a heatsink out of with a diamond/silica TIM to prevent current from reaching the heatsink.


    It is revolutionary and allows the manufacturing process to be further reduced. It also reduces leakage meaning higher clockspeeds are possible.


    Look out much changed in the past 100 years compared to what changed in the 10,000 years before it. Many technologies are evolving at an exponential rate.
     
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  9. mauriek

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    i have worked for mining company research for few years, i'm not sure if this suitable in this discussion but Technology advance in IT also connected with the lack supply of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_element, as 95% of the world supply come from china, we in the research business are having a long history of difficulties of obtaining some of them for research purpose, for example, researching micro/nanofracture on chip will require large enough quantity some of the element.
     
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  10. T4C Fantasy

    T4C Fantasy CPU & GPU DB Maintainer

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    just because its being used in ps3 doesnt mean anything, XDR2 is proven to be ALOT faster than ddr3

    XDR1 ram in a ps3 runs at 230Gbit/s / 28.8GB/s
    ddr3-2400 runs at only 153Gbit/s / 19.2GB/s

    http://www.rambus.com/us/technology/solutions/xdr2/xdr2_vs_gddr5.html

    theres no way around it XDR pwns ddr and gddr

    if everyones excuse is price, then why bother trying to innovate anything in the first place, its not a valid excuse in any way shape or form.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2012
  11. nleksan

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    I am in a sub-field of Biochemical Engineering (working on higher-level degree in Psychopharmacology), so I can't come close to what many of you know regarding electronic/mechanical/computer engineering, but I think this is a very interesting discussion.

    I personally feel that software is what is driving hardware innovations, but we have 6 core desktop processors that can't even be fully utilized by the vast majority of programs, and there is little motivation to design software for the masses that will utilize such resources when most people are not interested in anything more than simply having a computer that "just works". It's a Catch-22 in a way, especially for us enthusiasts.

    I would love to see the industry move to "revolutionary" tech over "evolutionary", but the financial aspects of such a move would be a mess, especially when our economy is in such a poor state.
     
  12. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

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    I am in the sub-field of Astrophysics. I've been working on spewing BS across 16 different plains of exsitance in 13 galaxies.
     
  13. theoneandonlymrk

    theoneandonlymrk

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    thats a pile of BS mate, a 2600K will not clock higher then a 3770K if the 3770K had been made with a soldered IHS instead of the job lot silicone shit TIM intel used , if the 3770K is relidded with decent Tim or unlidded it will clock higher then the 2600K(on average as chips vary)

    and never beat the cooling of a 2600K, wtf does that statement even mean since most will pick their own cooler and add variance their, and the 2600K does put out less heat then a 3770K but thats down to the process used and the trigate transistors in the IB 3770K(more surface area per gate = higher heat dissipation)

    get over silver allready:shadedshu:p
    think he means fully optical chips ,not interconnecting hardware(and networkin) ,years off

    as i said they allready gold plate critical connections on most motherboards (golds harder wearing then silver)

    Tri gate transistors are mearly an evolution and intel started the debate, Ivybridge uses Trigate transistors so they have No answering to do, other Fab cos have and are doing the answering Allready. 4d stacked chips:D

    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/rochester-3d-processor,6369.html

    http://www.hpcwire.com/hpcwire/2011-11-30/ibm_will_chip_in_on_micron_s_3d_hybrid_memory_cube.html

    http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/HONSHI/20081031/160571/

    to us the end users its the software not the hardware that needs a soddin evolution ,on average software's 3-5 years behind the hardware thats out, a catch all scenario thats bad for us enthusiasts.

    this is in some way proven by the fact intel could release its 50 core Knightsferry chip whenever they want and did want to also sell it as a render card, however the software is simply not around that would use it in a consumer pc to any degree other then a demo or possibly folding mmmmm
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2012
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  14. lilhasselhoffer

    lilhasselhoffer

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    Sir, my apples are much sweeter than your oranges.


    Seriously though, prototypes are insanely expensive to produce. Most of what you have suggested bears the same classification. I'm pretty sure nobody would buy a $10,000 NIC, knowing that the internet connection would still be incapable of using 1% of the bandwidth.

    Opto-electronic chips exist. They aren't anywhere near consumer grade ready. A lab sample of a dozen interconnects isn't anywhere near a consumer grade billion transistor chip. The fact that the technology currently can't be scaled is where the problem lies.

    Silver in chips? That has to be the most foolish idea, short of gold. Silver is several orders of magnitude (copper being $3/lb, silver being $28 per ounce) more expensive than copper. For the slight decrease in resistivity, you spend nearly 100 times (very round estimate of 28/(3/16)) as much in materials. A low end silver based chip would be triple or quadruple the price of an equivalent copper based chip. That kind of price to performance change would not fly well with consumers.


    Finally, the PS3 is a bizarre little experiment. It cannot be compared to a normal PC, because they are two fundamentally different beasts. The PS3 couldn't out perform 12 PCs, unless it was tasked with very specific jobs that favored its talents. A PC could run rings around the PS3 in 90% of computing tasks. Ever wonder why the PS3 based super computers didn't last long?



    So, I have to reflect what other people are saying. Economic considerations are what the consumer market is driven by. A $1200 luxury device won't sell nearly as well as one that can do 90% of the features for 50% of the price. Additionally, the technology news has a bias for showing awesome new inventions, that often need a decade more research before they can be viably manufactured. The real motivator of technology is the currency people are willing to spend, which isn't nearly as awesome as saying that technology is driven by humanity's desires... We can dream...


    Edit:
    10 years of development separates the lab and mass manufacturing. XDR memory is a nice technology, but excessive pricing and a lack of availability make it impractical.

    Do you remember RDRAM? It was faster than the SDRAM we were using at the time (and still do!). Rambus even had it in P4 sockets for a time. People didn't want to pay, what amounted to highway robbery, to Rambus for their patented technology. The faster technology died, making way for the cheaper (and worse performing) RAM you're using today. This is the economic influence at its purest.

    Imagine how many computers would exist if they still cost as much as a car. Imagine the world without the internet. It's crappy to think about, but decreases in pricing are what makes everything available to consumers. Performance is an afterthought, as very few people have the luxury of quantifying price below performance.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2012
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  15. T4C Fantasy

    T4C Fantasy CPU & GPU DB Maintainer

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    the air force still uses the ps3 super computer ^^, back in 2006 no consumer grade pc for the same price as 700 could compute better than the ps3, its a fact.
     
  16. T4C Fantasy

    T4C Fantasy CPU & GPU DB Maintainer

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    people would buy a 10,000 chip.. they sell 25,000 14 inch monitors that people buy! lol, if you are rich and money is not a problem than TRUST me.. they will buy it... my 3d LED 24 inch was only 259... i personally wouldnt want to spend 25k on somethign that looks a TINY bit better lol but people will and they have and they always do.
     
  17. Dippyskoodlez

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    Capacity is the limiting factor, not price.

    Sure, you can make DDR3 chips that run 250Gbit and smoke XDR, if you use the same piss poor capacity that a PS3 has.

    Computers OTOH use 8, 12, 16, 32, 64, 128GB quantities, not sub 1gb quantities. Your point is invalid. The technology is not "as great as you think it is".

    By todays standard, a PS3 is now a pretty poor performer when it comes to computing. It was handy before because of the extreme low price/performance/power consumption ratio.

    Where the air force got screwed in that deal was the farm is essentially not upgradable in any way. Atleast with a computer using 20,000 opterons you can switch to a new opteron. :roll:

    Now, the PS3's are barely worth the cost of the electricity to operate them.
     
  18. T4C Fantasy

    T4C Fantasy CPU & GPU DB Maintainer

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    xdr2 ram is not sub 1gb, they come in the same sizes as ddr3 :p i was only using the ps3 as an example for speed, which you cannot get ddr3 to go as fast as xdr2.. not even close

    the only way ddr3 would be faster than a STOCK clock of XDR2 is to overclock ddr3 to 3800GT/s which is DDR3-3800... which is 1900MHz

    its about price.. trust me
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
  19. Dippyskoodlez

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  20. T4C Fantasy

    T4C Fantasy CPU & GPU DB Maintainer

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  21. seronx

    seronx

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    If XDR or XDR2 was made for PCs or Consoles it would undermine JEDEC DDR3 and GDDR5.
     
  22. Dippyskoodlez

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    Rambus is an awful company, and noone wants to do business with them. Pretty much end of story. Rambus (the DRAM for P4's) had the same problems that XDR would; weird configurations, and Rambus getting full of themselves.

    Considering myself an enthusiast, the big DRAM companies are making a sound decision, given history.
     
  23. james888

    james888

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    I think the biggest bottleneck of my pc is my harddrive. It is relatively fast for mechanical, and I still boot up in 30 seconds... but... ssd's are so much faster. I am still waiting for a good price drop on ssd's to get one, and am happy with how my pc performs now.

    Anyone else think mechanical is the main bottleneck of pc's?



    I think internet speeds are behind in comparison to routers and NIC's. This varies by area to area. Japan has very very fast internet, but here in the US we are much slower. I know "some" locations, not mine, have pretty fast internet.

    Anyone else think think the internet infrastructure is behind, at least in America?
     
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  24. Dippyskoodlez

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    Its behind in most areas, because unlike japan where covering 1sq mile nets you tons of customers, covering 1 sq mile in the US is a small fraction of the subscribers.

    Compound that with the US having hundreds times more actual land than Japan, it costs exponentially more to spread gigabit fibers from house to house.

    Not really a mystery, its just plain hard to cover everywhere :p

    Its the exact same issue with edge Vs 3g Vs LTE currently. You'll notice high population density areas always get stuff first.
     
  25. james888

    james888

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    Weren't we supposed to forget cost for this discussion. Internet is a bottleneck.
     
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