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GTX 680 vs. HD7970, will there be a PRICE WAR ?!

Discussion in 'NVIDIA' started by fynxer, Mar 18, 2012.

  1. fynxer New Member

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    Could NVIDIA and AMD be price controlling the graphic card market. You probably would say that there is no way in hell that this is happening.

    [​IMG]

    Well, my experience say that it is VERY POSSIBLE that it is happening right under our noses from time to time.

    How do i know this, well during 1991 to 2005 i worked for a company "some where in Europe" that practiced the art of price controlling.

    This company had a similar performance range of products with low, medium and high end skus and they only had one competitor in that market.

    I was directly involved in brokering the price control deals and got handsome yearly bonuses for my work and to keep my pie hole shut.

    When there is only two companies competing in one market the chances are big that some kind of price controlling is going on.

    But should it not be easy to spot that they are doing this. No, it is not easy at all to spot price controlling since they camouflaging it well.

    These deals are often not made directly by the top bosses, it is usually two friends that is medium level employees in each company that negotiate the deal verbally over a beer.

    Each employee then has direct contact with there own boss and get the deal approved without involving any more employees.

    This way it is almost impossible to trace since only very few people that actually know about it and there is no paper trail.

    Companies often only price control there top sku's, this way they automatically keep the price up of all the medium and low level sku's.

    You will still see price movements in the low and medium range but the price won't drop to much since the price controlled top sku is keeping the price up.

    Also these agreements are only made for a limited time period like one or two quarters, often during the low sales season.

    It is as simple as NVIDIA and AMD agreeing to not go under $500 for the GTX 680 and HD7970 say from April to September.

    Even if they price control only for limited time periods from time to time they can still make shit loads of money if they choose the right time to do it.

    From my experience i see a perfect time right now for NVIDIA and AMD to do this when GTX 680 comes out.

    They will both have high end skus with very high profit margin so if they can delay a price war right now until September it would be extremely beneficial for both NVIDIA and AMD.

    Some people may argue with me and say that both HD7990 and GTX 690 is coming so this price control thing won't work.

    But yes it will work even better, it is perfect timing because then they can price the HD7990 and GTX 690 sky high because the absence of a price war and make even more money.

    How can we know if they are price controlling the market this spring and sucking all of our wallets dry?

    Well it is easy, if AMD do not drop the price of HD7970 and HD7950 effectively to try to nail NVIDIAs ass to the wall and bring GTX 680 down there is something fishy going on.

    I urge every one that reads this to keep an eye open, if you feel that the competition has been set out of play air your opinion as much as you can i forums and what not on the internet.

    Customer out cry and dissatisfaction with the pricing is the only way to pressure companies from price controlling the market.

    I hope that AMD and NVIDIA compete fairly but i want to open peoples eyes to the possibility that it could happen and that it is not as impossible that many of you think.
     
  2. random

    random

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    The fact is we will never surely know, all companies are only after cash so if that makes them more revenue in the end then it's highly probable. Either way the competition is a benefit to us.
     
  3. puma99dk|

    puma99dk|

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    as random says we will never surely know, but i just hope that the prices will come down, even i think the GTX680 would have been nice with more than 2gigs of memory but well i will see i am thinking about switching my GTX570 out with Sapphire Radeon HD 7950 3gb but i dunno since i use Cuda and PhysX when ever i can.
     
  4. DarkOCean

    DarkOCean

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    I bet my hat they have some price fixing agreement, hoping that prices will simply go down its as uselles as hoping to win the lottery.
     
  5. INSTG8R

    INSTG8R

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    Well we could also "surmise" that perhaps TSMC is sticking it to both of them on the chip prices. It apparently hasn't been easy for them to get these 28nm parts up and running.
     
  6. RejZoR

    RejZoR

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    Well, then you don't buy the seemingly overpriced product. If enough users do that, they'll see it's not worth artificially mocking up the prices. But since everyone seem to be rushing for the 500 dollar gfx cards that apparently will never happen.
     
  7. Super XP

    Super XP

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    This is a great topic. You should make it into a POLL.
     
  8. fynxer New Member

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    I did an analysiz of NVIDIA's manufacturing cost with TSMC and concluded that they indeed have a higher wafer cost and some problems with yields.

    TSMC is charging about up to 25% higher price for their 28nm wafers.

    The problems with the yield is bad but far from the disaster yields they had with 40nm in the beginning.

    So you are right that GK104 has an higher manufacturing cost at the moment.

    BUT i must point out that this increase in manufacturing cost do not at all motivate the $250 extra they are slapping on the price tag and charging $550 because they suddenly decided to put the GK104 in GTX 680 instead.

    Kepler do deliver a generation upgrade with a real bump in performance just like NVIDIA promised but now they are holding back just because AMD failed to deliver the performance that NVIDIA expected.

    Remember that GK104 is a medium performance gpu in the Kepler series, NVIDIA happened to presented this information them self's just before the release of the HD7970. They where scared that HD7970 would be a massive performer and wanted to advertise what Kepler was capable of.

    GK107=low, GK104=medium and GK110=high performer.

    Now NVIDIA do a 180 and make GK104 a high end sku instead of GK110 which is unfair to their customers that have been waiting a long time to get their hands on the real high end performance of Kepler.

    Now they are taking about GK110 in GTX 780 and this will probably not happen until AMD delivers more performance or drops their price of HD7970 to around $300.

    I really hope AMD will drop the price next week to counter attack the NVIDIA GTX 680 offensive real hard.

    NVIDIA is now aiming for a record profit in the second quarter, maybe even the best profit ever they had in one quarter just because of the over priced GK104.

    http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/26310-nvidia-aims-for-record-quarter
     
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  9. AsRock

    AsRock TPU addict

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    I hope there is no price war as AMD really need the money too. And around $500 used to be for the high end cards years ago like the ATI 9800.

    To me if they have enough sales to sell them at such prices they should..

    EDIT: Prices have been low for DDR3 is and it doing damage tot he suppliers, prices staying low only does damage to the companys that supply the goods so again they need to do this even more so AMD.

    You be in shit if AMD went down, then you be kissing every hope of ever getting a high end card for any kind of reasonable price.

    Like hell for asll you know AMD might be thinking ooh nvidia will not be able sell there cards cheep so we can charge more for ours and if that is the case good on them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2012
  10. Crap Daddy

    Crap Daddy

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    The short answer is NO.
     
  11. Outback Bronze

    Outback Bronze

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    Video cards r normally priced on their performance. If the 680 beats the 7970 it will basically cost more. Hasnt this been happening 4 years? Look at amd/intel.....Anyway im not sure but tbh i would not b surprised.
     
  12. lilhasselhoffer

    lilhasselhoffer

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    When two cards come out, and have the approximately the same performance, you have a price war. There are competitors that stack evenly, and thus the only way for the companies to drive sales to their side is by offering a lower price for the same goods. This is basic capitalism; supply being the same, demand can only be increased by dropping the cost of goods.


    AMD and Nvidea aren't in this situation. Let's assume that Kepler was about 10% better than the 7 series from AMD, based upon additional development time and without qualifying what "better" means. The high end card will be 10% better, so Nvidea should charge 10% more for their card. This performance difference essentially prevents the high end cards from competing enough to incite a price war.

    What is more interesting is the middle to high end cards. Those people who are motivated more by price than performance (ahem, most people) will see cards that directly compete with each others performance, and thus must compete with pricing. There might be a pricing war in this bracket, but not at the very high end of cards.


    As to the price fixing comments, show your proof. A vague conspiracy to keep the consumer down is a mighty caustic accusation. The severity of this accusation, coupled with the fact that most of the money made by these companies is very distant from high end cards, leaves me with the bitter taste of baseless accusations.

    It makes sense to lower your goals when the competition cannot compete. You only have to beat them out, not meet the lofty goals that you initially set for yourself. Consider the following: video game consoles only release every ~5 years for a reason. The consumer demands a uniform experience, and doesn't really upgrade TVs every two years. Computers, on the other hand, become outmoded in 12 months. The research dollars spent to maintain cutting edge technology mean that both companies must set reasonable steps for goals, because a large leap would take too much capitol and bankrupt them. The only exception here is new or unique technology, which may set one competitor apart from the pack (a true wild card). The catch is this kind of leap is reverse engineered in such a short time that nobody can maintain the advantage for too long.
     
  13. Dent1

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    Performance? No its based on prestige, brand power and market share value.

    Whether the GTX 680 is 10% faster or 10% slower, it will cost more than the 7970 because Nvidia has stronger brand awareness. Consumers are fickle they'll automatically assume that Nvidia is faster because it's the name they know and it cost more.

    They can still make huge profits with a pricewar, they recoupe from volume sales. Also, its the sub manufacturers (Asus, HIS, Sapphire) whom make the cards, AMD only make the GPUs so their overheads are low. It probably costs less than $30 make a GPU. The real cost is recouping the initial research and development.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2012
  14. 20mmrain

    20mmrain

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    I do want to point out that this is correct somewhat. While yes the GK104 is the medium performer.....lets not also leave out the fact that Nvidia released it as the GTX 680 not only because of AMD's performance but also the fact that if they would have waited for the GK110 it would have been Q3 or Q4 before release.
    So Claims by Nvidia saying they are disappointed with AMD's performance is subjective to review. It could also be viewed as Nvidia can't get their act together to release a GPU on time ever!
    Another way to look at this is that Nvidia may have made that comment "We were disappointed with AMD's performance" to avoid looking like another GTX 480 diabolical. Remember these comments are coming from their own PR marketing. Of course they are going to say all the things they can to make themselves sound better. Remember the GTX 480 marketing campaign? If you can't get your GPU to work no matter how powerful it is.... that doesn't mean a win!
    AMD on the other hand made a 40% jump in performance from the HD6970 which I believe is conservative. I offer they did this because this is the first totally new architecture since the 2900XT. They did not want to release something that would fail like they did back then. It also appears AMD has a more powerful version of this architecture "Tenerife" just waiting in the wings.
    If all we know turns out to be true.... I do think we will have a price war on our hands. Mainly because it seems both groups might not be releasing their best stuff the first time around.
     
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  15. johnnyfiive

    johnnyfiive

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    I think the 680/670ti, whatever it is actually called, will be 10-13% faster than the 7970.
    I believe it will be MSRP priced at $599, and it will be well over $600 when it launches.

    I do NOT think the 7950 and 7970 will drop in price after the 600 series cards launch.
    Of course, I'd like to be wrong, because I'd like to see a price war.
     
  16. theJesus

    theJesus

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    Yes, a price war to see who can gouge the most.
     
  17. m1dg3t

    m1dg3t

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    +1!

    People keep paying $500++ for a GFX card so they will continue to charge $500++ for a GFX card

    Nvidia pumped up gk104 because gk100/gk110 w/e is a NO GO (ATM) and they needed something to compete against ATi or else they would've completely shit the bed this round, they're already almost 3 month's behind ATi's release as it is! Nvidia's marketing dept. is GREAT at spinning thing's so that the fanboiis just eat it up....

    Lucky for Nvidia they had enough headroom to do this with gk104 otherwise major :banghead:

    I'm staying clear of BOTH "solution's" ATM ;)
     
  18. INSTG8R

    INSTG8R

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    Yep when I built this rig this past summer I stayed with my 5870 awaiting these new cards. Now we end up with high priced cards with not all that impressive advances over the previous generation...I don't know what to do now. Sticking a new Sapphire 7 series was supposed "finish" the rig.
    I can only hope this does end up in some kinda price battle. The current offerings at the current prices are not the least bit appealing...
     
  19. xenocide

    xenocide

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    I was excited to get a GTX660Ti or 670(Ti) but I honestly don't know if it will be worth upgrading. I might wait until the end of the summer or something. These prices are definitely too high for the average consume. My HD5850 is definitely not doing incredible, but it's not worth it to pay $550 for a GTX680 in my mind.
     
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  20. zargana

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    Price war: RIP, died with ending of 4870 era. With the release of 5870's we started the new era. This era called, there is no competition, there is no (price) war, only hugs and giggles behind curtain...

    They hitting the consumers "under the belt" with the price. If you using the price as weapon then "why you use mass production?" As i know "mass production is the way to cut the price off". But we don't see that today. The prices are like handmade products.

    Actually today there is no game which is worth to buy a new graphics card. If look at game scene the games still coming with dx9c graphics. So why i should buy a graphic card?

    If you have a Nvidia's 4xx or AMD's 5xxx and upper model cards you don't need to buy a new gpu... You can play all the popular games at high-ultra 1080p settings over 30 fps.

    Next year gpu prices: AMD 700$, Nvidia 800$...

    Ps: Also in older days GPU price difference between US and EU countries was based on exchange rate. Today we see, company sells his product in US for 550$ and in EU for 500€. There is no exchange rate in that. Otherwise should look like this 550$, ~419€ (today rate 1$=0.7601€).

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2012
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  21. FreedomEclipse

    FreedomEclipse ~Technological Technocrat~

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    Its already happening for some of us....Here in the UK, the average price for a reference 7970 is just a tad under the $700, though some places you can get them as low as $650. whereas if you check newegg prices - they barely start anywhere above the $600 mark.

    I really want to get rid of my crossfire setup as im totally at the end of my rag with crossfire issues but at the current price its just not worth it.

    So heres to hoping the 680/690 or 7990 will drive prices down as i find the current prices quite rediculous. for the average consumer here - that pricetag is literally two weeks salary.

    Of course the price wont stop people with deeper pockets from buying the 7970 but their idea to keep prices that high because you are paying for the privilege to own the fastest card AMD/Nvidia has to offer is beyond retarded.

    every generation of graphics card in the past has had its 'fastest' card AMD/Nvidia has to offer. e.g the 4890 to the 4xxx series or the 8800GTX to the 8800 series. but looking back at it all. Even though they were the current fastest cards in their day at that current time, they were more affordable.

    Im not saying that we shouldnt praise AMD/Nvidia and reward them for all their hardwork. a lot of time and resources go into development of their products but these prices leave a really bitter taste in my mouth.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2012
  22. razaron

    razaron

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    Reading this reminded me of 3dfx. They designed a card (Voodoo 5 6000) that was good enough to outperform its competitors (Nvidia and ATI) in its current generation and still give equal peformance in the next generation.
     
  23. yogurt_21

    yogurt_21

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    ludicrous comic if the gtx 680 beats the 7970 as most seem to think then it would be stupid for amd to match the 680's price. Nvidia already has better branding power and more market share.

    now there's nothing stopping nvidia from releasing a 5-10% performance premium card at a 25-40% price hike. They've done that in the past.
     
  24. Cotton_Cup

    Cotton_Cup

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    It would be nice if GTX680 is at the price of a gtx580 msi LXE3GB or lower (when it was released) at least in my place 680$-700$
    and AMD 7970 price go down to 330$-430$ price tag at least in my place (always + 50$ to 80$ extra on every computer component compared to the US market)

    that that were to happen many consumers would be happy including me
     
  25. belgium_warrior New Member

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    Well to me this is pricing deal is bullocks because a price war is starting right now under our very noses;
    2 days before launch nVidia dropped the mrsp for the GTX680 from 550$ to 500$.
    If there were pricing arrangements, 550$ would be a great price, dropping it right were it belonged compared to the 7970.
    However, 500$ makes a card that runs cooler, more quiet, more effecient and faster than the 7970 cheaper than the 7970.
    Noone in their right mind would still buy a 7970, unless you're all about compute :rolleyes:
    That has to hurt AMD.
    Just so you know, I am not biased towards either brand, I want the most bang for the buck I can get, doesn't matter what label it carries.


    So the idea is that nVidia and AMD agreed to let nVidia kick AMD in the nuts, olbiterating sales unless AMD drops prices, reduces profit margin and be content with 2nd best place for no good cause. Because 550$ would also sell 680's and 7970's would remain a valid alternative. That is not what we're seeing now. How can that be arranged??

    While one always has to remain sceptical, I don't believe that just because the author of the original post conducted pricing deals amongst competitors, everyone does it. I may be naïve, but i'm not sold on the idea. Just my 2 cents.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2012

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