• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Has NASA stumbled upon the basis for a real life faster than light drive?

Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,707 (0.80/day)
Location
On The Highway To Hell \m/
Rant Time...
...Rant over
Your frustration seems perfectly reasonable to me. I, as an American, take no offense to it at all. I'm fairly sure it would annoy me just as much, if the circumstances were reversed.
 

CAPSLOCKSTUCK

Spaced Out Lunar Tick
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
8,578 (2.11/day)
Location
llaregguB...WALES
System Name Party On
Processor Xeon w 3520
Motherboard DFI Lanparty
Cooling Big tower thing
Memory 6 gb Ballistix Tracer
Video Card(s) HD 7970
Case a plank of wood
Audio Device(s) seperate amp and 6 big speakers
Power Supply Corsair
Mouse cheap
Keyboard under going restoration
Excuse my unscientific thoughts on this but...if FTL speeds are possible than doesnt it figure that there are "things", undiscovered particles or whatever already travelling at speeds FTL.

It is one thing potentially creating such particles but how do you then detect them?

Consequently, if it is possible to detect them, then why have we not done this already? ................ because they do not exist in nature and are therefore, impossible?

Maybe it's just my lateral way of thinking about it on a brandy night.

Oh and @MrGenius . on behalf of the Brits, apology accepted....only another 318.899,999 to go
 

dorsetknob

"YOUR RMA REQUEST IS CON-REFUSED"
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
9,105 (1.30/day)
Location
Dorset where else eh? >>> Thats ENGLAND<<<
Excuse my unscientific thoughts on this but...if FTL speeds are possible than doesnt it figure that there are "things", undiscovered particles or whatever already travelling at speeds FTL.

It is one thing potentially creating such particles but how do you then detect them?

Consequently, if it is possible to detect them, then why have we not done this already? ................ because they do not exist in nature and are therefore, impossible?

Maybe it's just my lateral way of thinking about it on a brandy night.

Oh and @MrGenius . on behalf of the Brits, apology accepted....only another 318.899,999 to go
thanks


:) unscientifically you travel faster than the particle/object then you can study them at your leisure slow down then speed up and again study them at your leisure :)

Or to Put it another way

In order to study a Porsche 911 at speeds over 130Mph you drive a Ferrari 458 and not a fiat 500

Now that's a Rum Thought
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
2,659 (0.56/day)
No, no, no.

This is not FTL. Nowhere in the article does it say this is an FTL drive. To interpret it as such is so inaccurate that it borders on criminally stupid.

The drive is conventional, and generates enough acceleration to make a trip from Earth to Mars in about 70 days. The drive, through an unknown mechanism, generates this acceleration without conventional fuel ejection (shooting fuel out one end applies the opposite force on a body, accelerating it forward).


The FTL part of this is that a beam of photons were shot through the drive, and they arrived at the detector much faster than would be allowed through the medium regularly. Note what is being said here.

First, the velocity of the photons was calculated by distance in drive/time from emitter to collector. This, in conventional terms is distance/time. It's pretty easy to see this as a good assumption, because in normal conditions space-time is relatively constant. Imagine instead a chunk of graph paper inside the drive. Through some unknown mechanism, the graph paper is being distorted such that there are less squares from point to point, making the light take less time to cover the same space. In our frame of reference, the velocity of the photons is greater than light speed, but in reality the velocity is not appreciably greater.

Second, the thing being measured is a photon stream. This isn't a drive that moves that fast. It is akin to strapping a bottle rocket to your skates, and wondering why after it's lit you only travel 3." Perspective is necessary.


CAPSLOCKSTUCK
FTL particle detection (or high energy particle detection) is, to put it bluntly, a bitch. The energy is so high that they basically don't stop for anything. To use conventional terms, it's like using a paper target to study a single bullet at a shooting range. By the time the bullet does anything there have been thousands of other bullets penetrating the paper, so you can't really tell which bullet hole belongs to the one you are looking for.

This is why scientists and miners now have a lot in common. Scientists have buried high energy particle detectors in the Mesaba mountain range (iron ore heavy mountains in the Midwest US), which is effectively like coating the previously mentioned paper in an inch of steel. Only the 50 caliber bullet is strong enough (read: has enough energy) to penetrate the steel and leave a mark.

We have technically created particles traveling faster than the speed of light already. The thing is, that's basically using 100 particles and only having one pass the light speed barrier. The sum of their speed though is not greater than light speed (in any one direction).

Various theories exist about FTL particles. Assuming that the prevailing models are correct, the only thing you need to do to travel faster than light speed is remove mass from the equation (vast oversimplification, but it's easier than summarizing the models). Assuming a particle doesn't interact with the Higgs Field, the particle has no mass. No mass means the energy requirement to accelerate the particle is zero, meaning FTL is possible. While all good on paper, the means by which this may be achieved is absolutely unknown. Even this gross oversimplification is painful.
 
Last edited:

64K

Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
6,104 (1.65/day)
Processor i7 7700k
Motherboard MSI Z270 SLI Plus
Cooling CM Hyper 212 EVO
Memory 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance
Video Card(s) MSI RTX 2070 Super
Storage Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB and WD Black 4TB
Display(s) Dell 27 inch 1440p 144 Hz
Case Corsair Obsidian 750D Airflow Edition
Audio Device(s) Onboard
Power Supply EVGA SuperNova 850 W Gold
Mouse Logitech G502
Keyboard Logitech G105
Software Windows 10
No, no, no.

This is not FTL. Nowhere in the article does it say this is an FTL drive. To interpret it as such is so inaccurate that it borders on criminally stupid.

The drive is conventional, and generates enough acceleration to make a trip from Earth to Mars in about 70 days. The drive, through an unknown mechanism, generates this acceleration without conventional fuel ejection (shooting fuel out one end applies the opposite force on a body, accelerating it forward).


The FTL part of this is that a beam of photons were shot through the drive, and they arrived at the detector much faster than would be allowed through the medium regularly. Note what is being said here.

First, the velocity of the photons was calculated by distance in drive/time from emitter to collector. This, in conventional terms is distance/time. It's pretty easy to see this as a good assumption, because in normal conditions space-time is relatively constant. Imagine instead a chunk of graph paper inside the drive. Through some unknown mechanism, the graph paper is being distorted such that there are less squares from point to point, making the light take less time to cover the same space. In our frame of reference, the velocity of the photons is greater than light speed, but in reality the velocity is not appreciably greater.

Second, the thing being measured is a photon stream. This isn't a drive that moves that fast. It is akin to strapping a bottle rocket to your skates, and wondering why after it's lit you only travel 3." Perspective is necessary.


CAPSLOCKSTUCK
FTL particle detection (or high energy particle detection) is, to put it bluntly, a bitch. The energy is so high that they basically don't stop for anything. To use conventional terms, it's like using a paper target to study a single bullet at a shooting range. By the time the bullet does anything there have been thousands of other bullets penetrating the paper, so you can't really tell which bullet hole belongs to the one you are looking for.

This is why scientists and miners now have a lot in common. Scientists have buried high energy particle detectors in the Mesaba mountain range (iron ore heavy mountains in the Midwest US), which is effectively like coating the previously mentioned paper in an inch of steel. Only the 50 caliber bullet is strong enough (read: has enough energy) to penetrate the steel and leave a mark.

We have technically created particles traveling faster than the speed of light already. The thing is, that's basically using 100 particles and only having one pass the light speed barrier. The sum of their speed though is not greater than light speed (in any one direction).

Various theories exist about FTL particles. Assuming that the prevailing models are correct, the only thing you need to do to travel faster than light speed is remove mass from the equation (vast oversimplification, but it's easier than summarizing the models). Assuming a particle doesn't interact with the Higgs Field, the particle has no mass. No mass means the energy requirement to accelerate the particle is zero, meaning FTL is possible. While all good on paper, the means by which this may be achieved is absolutely unknown. Even this gross oversimplification is painful.

You can correct someone's error without inferring that they are "criminally stupid".

I think you are wound up to tight and you should consider that.
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
2,659 (0.56/day)
You can correct someone's error without inferring that they are "criminally stupid".

I think you are wound up to tight and you should consider that.

Allow me a brief indulgence, so that I can frame my answer.

As a child of the very late 80's, I've seen the rise of media that exists only to interpret interpretations of news. With the functional collapse of journalism into political rhetoric, the only way that you can get news is to either interpolate truth from two opposing political reports, or to search out the original source and interpret it for yourself.

Case in point, Baltimore. The police have a track record of abusing their detainees, the people are functionally just above the poverty line set by the government (on average), and yet this is not what the main stream media reported. Fox reported that a bunch of thugs were looting and rioting. More liberal media outlets showed the violence against protestors, and claimed racism. Neither source really reported on anything, they presupposed an interpretation based upon political agendas and "found" facts to support their presuppositions.

In fact, the shows doing the best reporting are comedic. Seriously, consider that the Daily Show, Nightly Show, and Last Week Tonight are doing a better job reporting facts than traditional reporting outlets. WTF?

Based upon this indulgence, allow yourself a moment in my shoes. Qubit interprets and posts a news article, which itself is an interpretation on a report that interprets harvested data. If you'd ever played the phone game in elementary school, you'd know that with this many interpretations many of the facts are lost along the way, and incorrect conclusions can be drawn.



The thing is, this is the internet. Everybody lists their sources, and the Escapist is no different. It took me less than 30 seconds to find their single source, and link to it. It brought us a NASA post, which itself had no source. That's reasonably taken as the relevant factual source, so I read it. While dry, the article is not given to hyperbole. It doesn't cite FTL speeds, it doesn't conjecture about Star Trek, and it doesn't claim anything special. It states the general conditions of testing, the relevant results, how these results were confirmed, and conjectures about how such a device could be used. Nothing amazing, but factually correct.

After two interpretations we get "Has NASA stumbled upon the basis for a real life faster than light drive?"

Patently, no. To grab headlines with this crap, while linking to a source that basically proves not, is stupid. If along the lines anyone had done their research, they would have smacked the person who suggested this and told them it was a bold faced lie and easily disprovable. To post this as a headline makes journalistic credibility something you don't have.

If you want to post a headline based in truth, how about the amazing stuff? Perhaps: "NASA's new drive could make a trip to Mars your summer destination." While hyperbolic, follow it up with the projected 70 day travel to Mars, 90 days there, and 70 day return trip. What about "Move over Hubble, satellites of the future could spend decades in space without a drop of fuel." Again, hyperbolic as the nuclear reactor would need material. On the other hand refueling reactive mass rockets would be a thing of the past. Finally, why not go with "Soon the International space station could be the greenest vehicle in Earth's history." Not even hyperbolic this time. 925,000 pounds of matter that absorbs sunlight, uses one of these drives to maintain orbit, and emits no burnt fuel is green in the extreme (boy that bit of stupid hurts to say).


In short, yes I'm wound tight. Crap reporting does that to me. If you cite sources you'd better make sure to check them, and if you're reposting news you'd better check their work. If you don't there will be someone who calls you out on this crap. That's not a reflection on the author, but a reflection on a broken system where people accept what is said at face value. Nobody should get away with that.



Edit:
Whether it is a failing of me to make the point, or simply wording it incorrectly, I need to clarify something. I am not attacking Qubit personally, and have no intention of insulting anyone else directly. What I want is factual reporting, without hyperbole.

The original data is dry, but you expect that from NASA. The Escapist reports it in relations to Star Trek, which is stretching things but reasonable. From one rather substantial embellishment, to a patently incorrect article title, requires only one more interpretation. That seems rather problematic.

Think I'm being a bit of a prick, I'll concede that point. At the same time, let's review. NASA never says anything is traveling FTL, only that a beam of photons shot through the engine take less time to reach a detector than light speed would allow over the given distance of normal space. The Escapist states specifically (as cited by Qubit) that nothing is moving FTL. Despite this, the title is about NASA stumbling onto FTL. That seems a bit of a problem, no?


Of course, let's make sure I'm shooting straight. I started out saying this isn't news after all. First off, NASA hasn't used the Star Trek terms, so I lose points for conflating their research with the Escapist's reporting. I followed up with a factual error on the probes reaching Pluto. Points lost there, but I admitted to error. I wind up stating that the drive creates acceleration through an unknown methodology. While technically correct, the article does suggest some preliminary theories. This is a toss up, so I'll call it a net wash.

On the whole, I've failed factually once and failed to properly cite interpretation once. Not horrible, but definitely not up to journalistic standards. The only reason I should be listened to is that it's a direct interpretation of the article linked to with actual facts. Perhaps it's asking too much, but that's what I want to see. I don't need to know what you think, of what she thinks, of what he thinks, of what was reported by a researcher. That much interpretation is criminally stupid, because the facts are lost to interpretation.
 
Last edited:

CAPSLOCKSTUCK

Spaced Out Lunar Tick
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
8,578 (2.11/day)
Location
llaregguB...WALES
System Name Party On
Processor Xeon w 3520
Motherboard DFI Lanparty
Cooling Big tower thing
Memory 6 gb Ballistix Tracer
Video Card(s) HD 7970
Case a plank of wood
Audio Device(s) seperate amp and 6 big speakers
Power Supply Corsair
Mouse cheap
Keyboard under going restoration
I made my mind up about the article within moments....it is bollocks.
however.... i have stayed with this thread because of the interesting conversation it has generated.....that is the point.
Theres certainly no need to use it for spleen venting.
I was grateful for the explanation you gave me earlier, i thought it was very good.

cant see any reference to @qubit interpreting anything, looks like he just "threw it out here", i may not have heard about it otherwise. :toast:
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
1,298 (0.25/day)
Location
The Netherlands
System Name PC || Acer Nitro 5
Processor Ryzen 9 5900x || R5 2500U @ 35W
Motherboard MAG B550M MORTAR WIFI || default
Cooling 1x Corsair XR5 360mm Rad||
Memory 2x16GB HyperX 3600 @ 3800 || 2x8GB DDR4 @ 2400MTs
Video Card(s) MSI RTX 2080Ti Sea Hawk EK X || RX 560X
Storage Samsung 9801TB x2 + Striped Tiered Storage Space (2x 128Gb SSD + 2x 1TB HDD) || 128GB + 1TB SSD
Display(s) Iiyama PL2770QS + Samsung U28E590, || 15,6" 1080P IPS @ 100Hz Freesync enabled
Case SilverStone Alta G1M ||
Audio Device(s) Asus Xonar DX
Power Supply Cooler Master V850 SFX || 135Watt 19V OEM adaptor
Mouse ROG Pugio II
Software Win 11 64bit || Win 11 64bit
Joined
Jun 4, 2013
Messages
268 (0.07/day)
Location
Europe/Norway
System Name Lava Kitty
Processor intel i7 4930k http://valid.x86.fr/lht7hh
Motherboard Asus x79 deluxe
Cooling H20 Parallel EK D5. Radiator: 480 Monsta 80mm pushpull
Memory Gskill-trident-X 2666mhz 16gb 4x4gb
Video Card(s) MSI GTX Titan X
Storage Samsung 850 pro 512GB. 3GB seagate storage. 1GB storage drive. 4# 300-500 GB storage drives
Display(s) Asus PA279Q, and Asus VG278HR
Case Lian Li PC-343B-XT
Audio Device(s) Asus Essence STX. and. Creative Soundblaster ZxR
Power Supply corsair 1200i
Mouse Corsair M65 RGB
Keyboard Razer black widdow 2013
Software windows 8.1 and soon windows 10
Benchmark Scores ask if u want to see http://valid.x86.fr/lht7hh
a photon spinner would send us to lightspeed but its too much energy required. also the problem is that u cant stop if u arent close to a star.

a photon spinner uses the physical movement of the photons to spin up a turbine and creates a jet of photons propelling the object. all over the hull of the object u have fiber optics that goes to the turbine.

would take around 40 +- 20 years to reach lightspeed.

its simple but its not viable currently so its shelfed
 
Last edited:

AsRock

TPU addict
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
18,874 (3.07/day)
Location
UK\USA
Processor AMD 3900X \ AMD 7700X
Motherboard ASRock AM4 X570 Pro 4 \ ASUS X670Xe TUF
Cooling D15
Memory Patriot 2x16GB PVS432G320C6K \ G.Skill Flare X5 F5-6000J3238F 2x16GB
Video Card(s) eVga GTX1060 SSC \ XFX RX 6950XT RX-695XATBD9
Storage Sammy 860, MX500, Sabrent Rocket 4 Sammy Evo 980 \ 1xSabrent Rocket 4+, Sammy 2x990 Pro
Display(s) Samsung 1080P \ LG 43UN700
Case Fractal Design Pop Air 2x140mm fans from Torrent \ Fractal Design Torrent 2 SilverStone FHP141x2
Audio Device(s) Yamaha RX-V677 \ Yamaha CX-830+Yamaha MX-630 Infinity RS4000\Paradigm P Studio 20, Blue Yeti
Power Supply Seasonic Prime TX-750 \ Corsair RM1000X Shift
Mouse Steelseries Sensei wireless \ Steelseries Sensei wireless
Keyboard Logitech K120 \ Wooting Two HE
Benchmark Scores Meh benchmarks.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/new...-Warp-Field-Still-Generates-Works-In-A-Vacuum

Original source:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/evaluating-nasas-futuristic-em-drive/


So, I'll buy into this being news now.
1) Power technology has been around since the 1980's.
2) Measurable thrust has been proven to not be measurement accuracy errors.
3) Analytical models of the drive have explained discrepancies in measured thrust, and have been proven accurate via further testing.
4) Multiple locations, and numerous tests, have yielded consistent results.
5) Every a****** of the scientific community has had their chance to rip this thing to pieces, but it still stands.

Congratulations, you've got a drive that works in reality, yet screws with our basic understanding of the laws of physics. Awesome!

No sarcasm at all here. I'm glad experimental results have confirmed this sucker as correct. It may put a damper on our understanding of the universe, but that's an opportunity to move closer to the truth. I'm looking forward to the explanation of why conservation of momentum can be violated here. Though that may take years, the practical ability to explore our solar system in significantly less time is worth a bit of reworking physics. The conservation of momentum is a theory for a good reason after all.

So most of this data is just NASA trying to give a reason(s) they should get a bigger budget ?. Ironic is it not time for new president too.

Surely it's improved since then right ?.
 

rtwjunkie

PC Gaming Enthusiast
Supporter
Joined
Jul 25, 2008
Messages
13,909 (2.42/day)
Location
Louisiana -Laissez les bons temps rouler!
System Name Bayou Phantom
Processor Core i7-8700k 4.4Ghz @ 1.18v
Motherboard ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming 6
Cooling All air: 2x140mm Fractal exhaust; 3x 140mm Cougar Intake; Enermax T40F Black CPU cooler
Memory 2x 16GB Mushkin Redline DDR-4 3200
Video Card(s) EVGA RTX 2080 Ti Xc
Storage 1x 500 MX500 SSD; 2x 6TB WD Black; 1x 4TB WD Black; 1x400GB VelRptr; 1x 4TB WD Blue storage (eSATA)
Display(s) HP 27q 27" IPS @ 2560 x 1440
Case Fractal Design Define R4 Black w/Titanium front -windowed
Audio Device(s) Soundblaster Z
Power Supply Seasonic X-850
Mouse Coolermaster Sentinel III (large palm grip!)
Keyboard Logitech G610 Orion mechanical (Cherry Brown switches)
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit (Start10 & Fences 3.0 installed)
@AsRock no, it's not a budgetary time press release. In fact if you'll notice in post 3, I noted that almost a year ago these things were released as progress updates on the subject. They have been working on this awhile now.
 
Top