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HDMI out from GPU revisited

Discussion in 'Audio, Video & Home Theater' started by Frag Maniac, Jul 27, 2013.

  1. Frag Maniac

    Frag Maniac

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    Well, tried it using the AVR as the default AMD HD Audio playback device, and with a multi channel game running and minimized I still get only a stereo option in the Windows Sound panel. Worse yet, with the AVR as first device in the loop, I can't even get ANY audio actually playing back even in stereo. I used the HDMI 4 port as per Yamaha's FAQ for HDMI connection to a PC, and obviously have it on that input selection, otherwise I don't even get the desktop showing, but in that FAQ it also says to use an Optical audio cable with it.

    So the two weird things are that and the fact that my MB BIOS shows HDMI as an option only under the S/PDIF header in advanced onboard options. If I select HDMI though, the only HDMI options that show in the Windows Sound panel are the TV and Realtek. If I disable the Realtek HD Audio in the BIOS, the S/PDIF header below it and in turn it's HDMI option, completely disappears as a BIOS option.

    So if the impasse is not at the AVR, it may be that this MB and/or BIOS, only support the old S/PDIF pass through type HDMI that older GPUs used before the ones with their own audio driver came out. It could as well be the AVR though. That FAQ page for PC hookup via HDMI saying to use an Optical cable doesn't exactly give me confidence in it.

    I called Yamaha yet again today, and got fed up with the guy in their so called "tech" dept that answered, whom appeared to be one of their call center staff from India that handle overflow at peak times of day. Come next AVR I'm not sure I want to trust Yamaha. For now I might just get something like the Xonar DS for the DTS Connect. I probably should have bought it back when it was on rebate for $33.
     
  2. Dent1

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    x64 movie files are often encoded in DD already, often the torrent is ripped from a TV broadcast which was originally aired with DD, or it was ripped from a actual DVD or bluray disc. The guy that stole the video just encoded it and just kept the original DD audio intact. Games don't have DD on the soundtrack.



    This website here will help your search. http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Stats.php



    Games don't have DD or DTS on the soundtrack. Most game publishers don't have the budget get a license like a blockbuster movie production.

    Games are recorded in PCM Stereo, or a specific number of PCM channels. All Dolby Digital Live or DTS connect does is detect the number of available channels. If 5 channels or more are detected it and encodes it to either DTS 5.1 or DD 5.1.

    If 2 channels are detected it applies a DTS NEO or DD Prologic upmix ontop before encoding it to DTS 5.1 or DTS 5.1

    Without an encoding sound card, the only thing you can get in games is PCM, and Multi Channel PCM in some situations. Prologic IIx and DTS Neo can be applied to the PCM on the receiver level.



    ----------

    I think your motherboard has limitations with HDMI out.

    Asus website doesn't mention HDMI once in the specification. But mentions Coaxial and SPDIF http://uk.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1366/P6X58DE/#specifications

    Realtek's specification for the ALC889 chipset says "Support for 16/20/24-bit SPDIF input and output with up to 192kHz sample rate offers easy connection of PCs to consumer electronic products such as digital decoders and speakers. The ALC889 also features secondary SPDIF-OUT output and converter to transport digital audio output to a High Definition Media Interface (HDMI) transmitter."

    So it doesn't support HDMI fully, it's a dodgy gimped workaround, this means you can't transmit video + audio simultaneously or utilise Dolby Digital True HD, LPCM or DTS HD Masters because it will have SPDIF bandwidth limitations. For regular PCM, Dolby Digital and DTS signals this method is fine.

    Saying that, why don't you use your 7970. 7000 series supports HDMI fully.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  3. Frag Maniac

    Frag Maniac

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    LOL, man, I keep repeating myself. AGAIN, when I try to enable HDMI in the MB BIOS, it seems a mere S/PDIF pass through like you said. When I try disabling the Realtek HD Audio, HDMI Audio options in the Windows Sound panel disappear.

    You said earlier in SOME situations PCM multi channel is an option, well WHAT situations then? What mountains does one have to friggin move to get such an option? Please tell me, that's all I want to know so I don't buy any more lemon friggin crap!!!

    The ASUS tech I'm currently chatting with has suggested there's something wrong with the video card since it won't output HDMI audio, or show as a pluged in HDMI audio device.

    Wait, since there's multiple friggin instances of AMD HDMI Audio Devices showing, for Eyefinity I assume, what if I change one or more of the settings in CCC? Might that help Windows detect the Video card as a plugged in HDMI audio device?
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  4. Dent1

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    I was able to get it using Asrocks solution on post #46 back when I had my 5850 connected to my receiver via HDMI output (dialogue was dodgy). Now I'm using a proper soundcard with only SPDIF so that solution only warrants me PCM 2.0 now.

    I know it can be frustrating, soundcard manufacturers know this and play on our naivety and make us by stuff we don't fully understand.


    I'm confused are you talking about the Sapphire 7970 here? You enable the audio from the audio properties disable the motherboard's audio so only the 7970's audio card is enabled. You might need to connect the monitor to your AV receiver input, and then connect the receiver directly to the video card's HDMI out. This way your receiver manages both video and audio from the video card.
     
  5. Frag Maniac

    Frag Maniac

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    Yes, I'm talking about just the video card's HDMI out, that's how I'm trying to connect now but I can NEVER get any of the multiple instances of AMD HDMI Audio Devices showing as plugged in, even with all other devices disabled.

    [​IMG]

    You're saying now you don't even use multi channel PCM, WHY? Most everyone I've talked to that has used it prefers it, and is it common or not to be able to use it with games? If not, hell, screw it, I'll just get a sound card or upgrade to a AVR with DDL or DTS Connect.
     
  6. Dent1

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    That "not plugged in" is a driver related bug. It's not supposed to do that. Uninstall everything Catalyst related and reinstall and see what happens.

    Multi Channel is decent when you encounter a game with 5 audio channels as it maps the position relatively accurately to the correct speaker (with the exception of the odd center speaker abnormality) but when I play MP3s or watch YouTube videos which are 2 channels the front duplicate to the rears and the speech doesn't come from the center but comes from the fronts and backs simultaneously. So I'm forced to switch to Prologic on my receiver for everything other than certain games which is a hassle. It's easier to use the DTS connect feature on my soundcard and let it manage itself. The dialogue is always in the center and the positional audio is always accurate. Also there is a humbling comfort seeing a constant red "DTS" light on.

    The only time I don't use DTS connect is when I'm watching a HD TV show like Game of Thrones which I know has DD encoded or I'm watching a proper DVD Disc. I set Media player Classic to SPDIF by default, so I don't have to fiddle with the settings it just detects DD as soon as the movie plays and when it finishes it goes back to DTS automatically.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  7. Frag Maniac

    Frag Maniac

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    Honestly, you know how many times I've already tried a clean reinstall of everything AMD? I always use their cleanup utility, then Driver Sweeper, then reboot, then check in DS to make sure no AMD is showing before installing them. I also rolled back to Cat 13.4 just in case it was a beta problem, and I tried uninstalling all Realtek audio drivers first too. I think maybe these AMD HDMI drivers just don't play well with my MB.

    What about CCC settings like I asked? Is there a away to disable the Eyefinity option in CCC to maybe get ONE AMD HDMI option that's actually USABLE?

    I'm fed up with this and I've gotten nothing but incompetent flippant people at Yamaha and ASUS pawning it off on someone else. Yamaha claims it's PC settings, ASUS claims it's a GPU problem, and both along the way can't even answer simple questions. Sapphire has this annoying ticket submission where afterward you have to register, and it said I typed in the wrong picture code before submitting my registration, even though it was obviously correct. What a fucking joke. There's no competence or concern whatsoever in the PC component industry anymore. It's no wonder a lot of people stick with consoles.

    The weird thing is, after all you've said, it's sounding like multi channel PCM on PC is not what it's cracked up to be anyway. There's probably few games that support it, and if it just creates nightmares with switching to different sources like YT, etc, I can't see it. The thing is, now I'm too pissed at ASUS to want to give them anymore money for a sound card, and I'm not convinced the DS model I'm looking at wouldn't be a driver nightmare anyway. A lot of people say it is.

    (EDITED)
    Almost forgot, one of the ASUS chat guys actually suggested going here for a "CCCP" codec pack. http://cccp-project.net/

    I about shit bricks when I saw that. Anyone know about this? It's like some of these support chat guys just do random Google searches without checking sources, and when I asked him that, I got transferred to someone else. They transferred me several times btw. They ought to make a video game about consumers going bersek on these assholes and putting them out of their friggin misery. Do it Payday style, but call it Payback. LOL
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  8. eidairaman1

    eidairaman1

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    Yeah, G= Y R= Pr, B= Pb.

    http://www.monoprice.com/Product/?c...d=1023501&p_id=4715&seq=1&format=1#largeimage

    and whats so funny is you can use component cables on composite jacks because they are both RCA,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA_connector

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phone_connector_(audio).

    heres the thing dude since it seems too complex for you, K.I.S.S.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  9. Frag Maniac

    Frag Maniac

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    Seriously, you're going to play the noob card when you're the one suggesting a WAY more expensive cable than you need on the crappiest of all audio connects, mere composite? Are you friggin kidding me? That's laughable. Component has nothing to do with composite, save for both having RCA plugs, and you first made it sound like component cables are designed for carrying audio. They aren't, and just because they CAN function for just audio (but never video AND audio) doesn't mean it's practical to use them that way. Only an idiot would buy expensive RCA cables designed to filter RBG and only use them for audio. I think you're the one that's reached his saturation point complexity wise, "dude". LOL

    @AsRock,
    Yes I do, and that's the ONLY way I can get sound from the GPU's HDMI port, but only via the TV's speakers, so obviously it doesn't do much good.

    It seems the only real difference between your setup and mine since you are also using AMD GPUs, is your AVR and MB, both which are parts in my loop I'm skeptical about. The MB because of it needing Realtek onboard enabled to even get HDMI sound options, and the AVR because it's FAQ page on PC connectivity suggests an optical cable need be used.

    What I've gleaned from this is A) some whom advocate multi channel PCM don't really seem to use it, B) it takes a sound card or DDL capable AVR to get better than DPLII in games, and C), I'm not sure if it's worth it for just the interim to get a sound card while waiting to upgrade to a better MB and AVR, esp given the driver problems there are often no easier to deal with. I doubt it's the GPU itself, but it could be AMD's HDMI driver being extremely finicky to install or not being compatible with one of my components or even software filters I use, such as the LAV plugins for MPC-HC.

    Question for those of you using HDMI audio from your GPUs? In your MB BIOS, where is the HDMI option listed, and do you turn off the onboard chip? I think that may be the one design flaw of this MB, but I'm not so keen on the AVR either. Since I plan to upgrade the CPU and MB anyway though, that would be my first big step. Still toying with the idea of a sound card though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  10. Frag Maniac

    Frag Maniac

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    Dent, what sound card do you use to get DTS? I don't recall you saying. I can get the Xonar DS for $40, but the last drivers for it were over 2 yrs ago.
     
  11. Dent1

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    Yes I have the Xonar DS. Don't worry the drivers work and I've never encountered an issue.

    There are plenty of modded drivers which get constant updates. I've never used them and rather the official Asus or C-media driver. If it isn't broke why fix it?

    http://maxedtech.com/asus-xonar-unified-drivers/
     
  12. Frag Maniac

    Frag Maniac

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    OK, thanks, just wasn't sure. You know, you read a lot of customer reviews, and many seem PC knowledgeable, yet still report problems, so I had to ask someone that I know sounds competent.

    Do you get any small hassles other than mode switching? Any clicks, pops, etc? I take it you have to use digital coaxial with those, and of course it should encode DTS into the pass through right? I have only optical cables, so I may have to break down and buy a coaxial if I get one. Oh, one last thing, those have swappable opamps don't they, or is that a different model I'm thinking of? Do the stock ones sound good to you, not too bright or muffled?
     
  13. Dent1

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    No. But I did have those issues with my Creative Auzen X-Fi Prelude 7.1


    This card only supports fibre optical, and yes it encodes DTS.

    Yes it's swappable, but this doesn't affect digital only analogue which you're not using
     
  14. Frag Maniac

    Frag Maniac

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    I just looked in the DS manual and apparently that little doo hicky shown in the included parts kit is a Toslink to mini Toslink adapter, so I should be able to connect with what I have, but I don't really like using adapters. Do you use the adapter, or a mini Toslink to Toslink cable? Oddly enough the manual calls the SPDIF out a "combo" jack, claiming you can use coaxial with it as well, but some have said the manual is wrong on that.

    BTW, in doing further testing to see if I can get HDMI audio working, I found I not only don't have to have the Realtek drivers installed, It doesn't matter whether I use THE SPDIF or HDMI setting in the BIOS when enabling a sound device via the built-in MS HD Audio. Unfortunately the AMD HDMI HD Audio Devices still show as unplugged though.

    About the only other thing I haven't tried is installing the CCCP codec pack which claims to resolve codec conflicts, but I found out 3 of the five items it installs I already had on my system (MPC-HC, Haali, LAV). I may try it anyway. It even installs MPC-HC with settings for best compatibility. I worry it would keep me from using the MadVR plugin though, which gives MPC-HC better image quality.

    BTW, you never answered my question on PCM as far as how many games support multi channel PCM. Is it only a few?
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  15. Dent1

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    All modern soundcards with Fibre use the adapter. The entire Xonar range, Creative X-Fi Prelude, Creative Titanium HD, all of the Auzentech range. It's a cheaper way of making one jack into two. I use the adapter, but nothing is stopping you from using mini Toslink to Toslink cable.

    I tried connecting a Coaxial cable to my Asus DS and it didn't fit. So either I'm doing it wrong or there is a mistake in the manual.



    Your card might be faulty.



    Games don't support multi channel PCM, they support specific number of audio channels. It's up to your receiver to detect the correct amount of channels and apply multi channel if the correct amount of channels are available, or Dolby Prologic or DTS Neo depending on your selection.

    I haven't got it working enough to warrant the headache. Even when it works it doesn't work. As I said earlier 9/10 the dialogue isn't routed through the center or you get strange ambient noises from the center or even worst stereo duplicated to the rears. Dolby Digital Live and DTS Connect solves all issues and takes away the stress.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  16. Mussels

    Mussels Moderprator Staff Member

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    i use CCCP. its compatible with mad VR, and completely unrelated to your issue.
     
  17. Frag Maniac

    Frag Maniac

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    I wasn't saying it is, I've had intermittent garbled audio on YouTube and other streamed vids, as well as even in some games when cutscenes play, and it's said to resolve possible codec conflicts, so I thought I'd give it a try. When it installed it immediately recognized Nero's MP4 codec as a possible problem, so I let it uninstall it.

    I also figured it was compatible with MadVR after reading more about it actually having the MadVR filter pre-installed in the latest versions, though I had to update to the latest version of MadVR because the one that came with it doesn't have the new smoothing feature that resists judder.

    Upon uninstalling Realtek though I noticed something odd. I usually trust Driver Sweeper's analyse results, and it showed no Realtek audio after cleaning with it, but my Revo Uninstaller app still showed it, so I used Revo to finish cleaning it out.

    Anyways, I got it CCCP all installed and went through the MadVR, LAV, xy-VSFilter configuring guide I use on AVS Forums again, but this time they had it updated to include a lot of tweaks I hadn't done before. I'll get a good idea of how it works tonight after playing Dexter on it.

    For now no garbled audio, knock on wood. Wish someone would answer that one question on multi channel PCM in games though. Is it common or can you only get it in a few games? I can't help but think it's only a few games if Dent sees fit to play most games in DTS.

    Also, it occurred to me after asking Dent all those questions about the Xonar DS and DTS Connect, if it encodes any game's stereo signal into DTS, why are only some games actually encoded in DTS, and why does my AVR not decode the ones that are?
     
  18. Mussels

    Mussels Moderprator Staff Member

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    let me put it this way:


    if your receiver requires an encoded input (dolby digital, DTS, and the blu ray equivalents) then without a sound card capable of encoding, you're gunna be stuck with stereo for music and games. the end.


    if you want 'true' 5.1 then you need a sound card and receiver compatible with bit streaming. (or DD/DTS live if you're back on optical/coax)
     
    eidairaman1 says thanks.
  19. Frag Maniac

    Frag Maniac

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    Not really what I'm asking. I'm more or less asking what's the point of some devs encoding games with DTS if a sound card that encodes it onto ANY stereo signal can play ANY game in DTS, because according to what you and others are saying, it still takes a DTS capable sound card even if your AVR decodes DTS, even with games that are already encoded with DTS.
     
  20. Mussels

    Mussels Moderprator Staff Member

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    i think you've got that confused.


    some games support DD/DTS encoding (mostly console ports) so that they can have MORE than stereo.


    there is no point at all, encoding stereo to anything - the entire point of encoding is to fit more channels than two.
     
  21. Frag Maniac

    Frag Maniac

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  22. Dent1

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    No games have been encoded in DTS or Dolby.

    Most games are recorded in stereo. Some games support 5.1 or 7.1 or more audio channels which is what DDL and DTS exploits.


    Console games are not encoded in DD or DTS either. The sound chip on the Xbox and PS3 have a built in encoding similar to the Xonar which they license from DTS, Inc. and Dolby Laboratories, Inc.



    http://www.dolby.com/gb/en/professional/technology/gaming/dolby-digital-live.html



    Most games today support multiple audio channels. I've only played a hand full of games such as Tomb Raider Underworld, Crysis 2, Max Payne 3.


    I'm confused, consoles do have soundcards, they are integrated audio chips.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  23. Frag Maniac

    Frag Maniac

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    Can you please answer the question about PCM multi channel now that you're here again? How many PC games can you really get multi channel PCM from, that is if multi channel HDMI Audio ever does work for those fortunate enough to behold such a miracle? LOL

    Then the only reason I can think of that the consoles would encode DTS onto games that are multi channel capable is because you can't put sound cards in those systems.
     
  24. Mussels

    Mussels Moderprator Staff Member

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    i dont know, because i dont use it. i use analogue 5.1 sound, and before that i used DDL encoded optical.

    using that, most of my games support it. i think the problem here is that your receiver doesnt support the formats you need (it doesnt do bitstreaming, only stereo/pre-encoded streams)
     
  25. Frag Maniac

    Frag Maniac

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    Sorry that I didn't clarify, but I was asking Dent about PCM, since he's the one that commented on it earlier as far as getting multi channel PCM in some games, but not others.
     

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