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Is warhammer down? Why is nobody playing?

Discussion in 'Games' started by Odis1987, Mar 25, 2014.

  1. Odis1987 New Member

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    Hi, i would like to know what happened to warhammer dow2 online no body is playing on the network.?
  2. Naito

    Naito

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    All playing Company of Heroes 2?
  3. MustSeeMelons

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    Because it's old? I would like to know what happened with RTS genre, the last two games (CoH2 & Rome II) are just performance hogs..
  4. RCoon

    RCoon Forum Gypsy

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    Most RTS fans I know are still playing Starcraft II or the original Company of Heroes game with a thing called The Blitzkreig Mod. All other RTS's I'm aware of aren't particularly popular in the online scene.
  5. lilhasselhoffer

    lilhasselhoffer

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    Games Workshop is doing a crap job of selling their universe, because they're invested too heavily in their models and not enough in the IP.

    Let's lump Warhammer and Warhammer 40k into a single batch. Let's further call this batch property the Warhammer IP. None of this is ground breaking, so I'm assuming that you're following my reasoning here.

    Now, let's look at what exists in this IP. There are a few dozen games based upon paintable figures. These games produce money for the IP by; first constantly changing rules so that old players need to buy new models, second annually releasing limited edition special miniatures for new games which are also limited edition, and finally printed media is sold to define rule sets. That's a lot of money there, as Games Workshop controls the figurine pricing and all printed media. Once you've bought your first setup it's hard to say "I've spent $300 already, what's another $40 for the next set." Of course, new players look at that $300 initial investment and say that the barrier to entry is too high.

    What about the alternative revenue streams? You've got purely printed works (the Black Library), which sell about as well as niche printed works could be expected to sell. You've got video games, which haven't traditionally done extremely well because the IP isn't being sold well to outsiders. You've also got cheap cash-ins tied to the video game universe (I'm looking at you Storm of Vengeance).

    Let's focus on the good strategy games that have been produced from the Warhammer IP. The games, specifically in the last decade, were all products of THQ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Games_Workshop_video_games). No offense meant here, but THQ had problems selling water in the desert. Combine that with the poor push to sell the Warhammer IP, and you've got a recipe for an easily forgotten game (no matter how good it was).


    So, if you want people to make Dawn of War II you'll need Games Workshop to get off their high horses. They can continue to make their miniatures a premium product, but they need to do a lot more to make their IP shine. When the average PC gamer can tell you the difference between the Tyranids and the Zerg you'll have a successful games franchise. As it stands, if you replaced the Zerg enemy models with the Tyranids in StarCraft II I bet there would be a minority of players who could tell you exactly why they thought something was wrong, let alone where these "new" enemy designs came from.
  6. Vario

    Vario

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    DOTA(2)/League of Legends and other MOBA games killed the genre.
  7. Jaffakeik

    Jaffakeik

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    JUst go play boardgames its more fun with friends than online gmaes atleast u got involved as a person.I like gears of war tabletop game its fun only con is we need 4th player :D
  8. JunkBear

    JunkBear

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    What RTS stands for? Thx.
  9. Jaffakeik

    Jaffakeik

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    Reat time strategy if its reffered to games.
  10. JunkBear

    JunkBear

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    Ah ok Diablo and red alert is it considered RTS or just strategy?
  11. Jaffakeik

    Jaffakeik

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    red alert is rts, diablo is rpg(role playing game)
    JunkBear says thanks.
  12. lanceknightnight New Member

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    Why it is not played. THQ went bankrupt and was sold piecemeal in bankruptcy court. Through this purchase the GW holdings and license were purchased by SEGA. This change of ownership can be one attributing factor. The nature that there are more games being developed is another as SEGA made a very hefty purchase to get the GW IP in their stable. Contrary to some posts GW has made great gains in the stock market for its A shares and has some decent dividends. These games also have a history of making money and SEGA wants them. Now you know more will come but this one is not making much money for SEGA. The purchase that included this game was to get the IP access and some of the design materials not because this game would pay off the purchase. Thus tournaments and community building in a finished game is nonexistent. They do not wish to pour money into a game where the best that can happen is old players get their old game booted up and play a month only to complain. They want new players but know there are new members of this nitch that do not already have this particular game. Look and the humble bundle sales which are used to garnish good will and tax credits. The sales were good but for a game you could get for a nickle with three other games I do not see the same market. Adding to all I listed above is my opinion that the game was single player and fun but the multi player was not the same game. This is to say the game sales of this game do not cause good sales of those interested in multiplayer.
  13. lilhasselhoffer

    lilhasselhoffer

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    As a friendly note, if you want to answer directly to what someone else said, try the reply button in the lower right corner. Assuming you knew this, my bad and apologies.

    To this end, are you talking about the same Games Workshop that I am? The one who required all people that carried their product have brick and mortar stores? The one that switched from cast metal to plastic parts, but still increased the pricing? The Games Workshop that as of 2012 had moved only 6.5 million units across the entire Warhammer video game franchise (http://www.vg247.com/2011/07/27/thq-reports-net-sales-of-195-2-million-for-q1-fy12/)? The Games Workshop that sued scores of entities because they provided support for their products when they decided to provide little or nothing for consumers? Is this the same Games Workshop that pioneered the idea of in-app purchases, by encouraging customers to play games in their stores (you can win next time, if only you buy this cool new figure for $20)? Are we talking about that Games Workshop?

    I happen to like the Dawn of War games, despite their relation to Games Workshop. The games THQ put out were generally of high quality, and this was no exception. I despise Games Workshop because they are screwing over their customers. If you can pay $30 for a minor rule book, have to pay another $100 for the starter set to an army that you'll never use (in order to get the rest of the rules), and then have to spend another $170+ just to get the basic plastic figures to fill out your ranks then you've been had. I could buy a cheap 3d printer, filament, electricity, and design my own figures for less than a medium sized army of Warhammer 40k figures. If I did though, Games Workshop would be in line to sue me for violating their IP. That is the crux of my issue with Games Workshop.

    Warhammer, as a bundled IP, is a premium product. Games Workshop goes to no ends to defend it, and they are willing to screw the customers. They've created profits not by bringing in new players, but by decreasing production costs and jacking the prices through the roof. If you bought a standard group of marines today it would cost you north of $35. Ten years ago it cost less than $25, and the marines were die cast metal. That is why Games Workshop shows profits. It doesn't take a genius to know that if you double the price, half the customers, and decrease production costs by 2/3rds you wind up with an increase in profit (without having to sell more units).



    I'm looking forward to having this discussion again in two years. Games Workshop will no longer be able to justify jacking up the prices of their products, because there will be no demand. The cost to entry will be at or above a decent gaming console or computer. At which point, Games Workshop has no plans. RTS games have to contend with the dug-in MOBAs, entrenched giants like Starcraft, and they have to do all of this while technically being a niche product. Nobody is going to tolerate a $200 PC strategy game, when amazing ones can already be had for under $20. Games Workshop will have to do a complete turn on sales ideologies, and I'm not sure they can do it. I'd love to see the Warhammer IP stripped from them, and put into the hands of somebody that wants people to play their games.

    Branching into what Games Workshop could be doing, let's figure out how they could start printing money rather than hemorrhaging players. Could you imagine the unholy cross of Skylanders and Warhammer? How about a stripped down rules set that would allow you to play an entire game in the 15 minutes you've got to eat lunch? Perhaps we could even have a say in what is being released, and how long its supported. None of these things currently exist under the thumb of Games Workshop, and their strangling policies aren't likely to make them happen any time soon. They'll continue losing player due to cost, jacking up the costs to make back the money they lost, and then repeating the cycle until even the old guard players will be too few and far between to support the game.
    This short sighted planning is great for the pocket books now, but like the video games industry (as of recent the AAA specifically) they are making a quick buck today and driving the industry as a whole toward a cliff. Maybe Games Workshop will recognize the problem before they start their downward spiral. I'm betting that they won't see their demise, and Games Workshop will be the next Radioshack. Never fully dead, but struggling to define what they are in a world that passed them by years ago.
    MustSeeMelons says thanks.
  14. lanceknightnight New Member

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    I did not reply to you comment as I addressed other items as well.

    Second you have the logo of 4dchan angry marines and quoted their views on GW. I find that view funny. I respect this view but am much too old to say your way of presenting it made me change my mind. Rather I just thought you were a bit of a jerk for choosing a condescending tone.

    I am an old rogue trader so the prices are up. alot. They started in the 80s with smaller boxes.I recall when they tested the marked when they introduced tin. But hey you get older and stuff costs more. Just look at this last year. Pork futures have increased due to China and the cheap ham in my deli doubled in price fro 2 per pound to 4 per pound in one year. I like to complain about that as well but I do not try to talk down to others when I do. Rather I try to make them be on my team and battle against the high prices.

    I make my comments based on stock price and valuation. Also the article you cited used the 6.5 million units sold as a positive that was the basis of using GW as the base for an MMO. This link supports my supposition that SEGA wants to use the IP. Supported by micro transactions.

    On a side note GW was preforming with it's A stock preforming over 800 through Jan. The recent reveal that their profitability has decreased still has them trading at 500+. Now this in a radical down swing for this new year tied to a decreased profitability but for two years running this company had weekly gains of close to 1% over two years. The time of these astronomical prices was their best time ever. Now I agree with your points but come to a conclusion that is different. I hold that we as old guys are not the market any longer. We have invested the money and they as a company must create obsolescence or a demand in the existing audience to create demand thus the rules change. We are not required to change rules with them unless we want to be part of their events. If you like old rules play by them. No reason to complain that a metal soldier company wants to sell more soldiers. The reality is that metal soldiers were kids toys at first and games were just made to sell more little men. We are adults who like a game for kids. Now to add to a point I agree with in your posited statements. The game is not attracting as many players. It is not attracting as many kids. The pricing reveals that GW is addicted to the money adults spend. Adults spend more and play to win and pay to win. But there is no realistic launch pad for young new players. There is no balanced super cheap box set. The game is marketed to old guys and to prove this you can now purchase companies. Yes you can get not armies or groups to play a game but a company. More little plastic men then fit on a table. These items exist because the market will buy them. Old men playing a game that should be for kids spend thousands for more guys than a table can hold. Their prices may be too low for this market as the audience matures and continues to make more in maturing careers. However every time this happens the younger audience is alienated. This point I think we agree upon given your statements.

    Skylanders with 40k would be a gold mine. Disney did it. Lego will do it. Pokemon will do it. If they keep the prices the same but add this feature I think they could get young people in our hobby and not changing the prices may placate the beards. Good idea on your point. This is better then micro transactions. At least you get a real world item. Very good idea on your point. I was scared when the painted toys with dials came out and that the CCG trend would come to GW. So happy it did not. But an added feature would be nice. Good idea.

    Now your thought on a change of direction. I think the Q4 report did that with the stock drop. The value is still good as the largest producer of plastic models in the world but the company did change a lot. They now have tons of books, armies are updated regularly and lots of new books are coming out with a focus on balance. I would not be shocked if things had flaws due to the release schedule being rocket speed but I think they are getting better. I particularly like how my old fav game is showing up in the game. Lots of new units from the old number 2 epic are being made for 40k for us old folk. Horus Heresy is also epic 1st edition and a game just for old guys. It is the game we wanted almost 20 years. It is very expensive and thus for old sods but hey my old units have rules again. Robots work again. Even the deodorant stick with zoids parts attached have rules again. Now I do not know how the efforts pan out but I think keeping a young people 40k and an old people 30k is a very strong move and may make growth viable. Then the high cost game can stay that way and GW may lower the entry cost for first armies.

    About 3d printing- China already makes knock offs for less then buying all the equipment. You are looking at 3 -5 k to make a decent setup. There will be games for this but not as pretty. Parts can take days to make (HP may have a solution) but making a forgery can put you in real odd places with your government. Also taking their idea seems wrong. But creating a new better system sounds great. But back to the point knock offs have existed for a long time. In the old GW days and soldier days it was expected that you could make molds and pour your own lead. It is pretty easy but people do not do it. It is cheaper too. But people do not do it. I am not saying people will not but that many people are lazy and prefer higher quality. I think this preference for higher quality is why GW has invested so much in mold rights. Their minis are much to high quality to make exact copies of via home 3d printing(3-5k). To make a mold like theirs you are looking are 100+k. Gamers and painters are picky and will pay for this little difference. This is also why the company moved to a high fidelity resin, to make copies more difficult.

    Rundown
    Start politely.
    Nice angry marine
    I am old too
    We disagree over definition of success. I base mine on stock valuation and market share in this case.
    GW has strong performance but was down Q4 but profitable. Agree cost of entry high. Like forge world model to get old men on different game that costs more.
    Your comment on a Skylanders game was meant to be negative but was ingenious and a good market idea.
    3d printing- real risk but more expensive then you quoted. Also existing competition can fill the void. I encourage that 3d printing not be used to pirate but to make a new world free of the IP. This is the innovation we need.
    Cordial closing.
  15. lilhasselhoffer

    lilhasselhoffer

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    I'll try to keep this response to a minimum, because I think we agree to be looking at the same things from different perspectives.

    I started by saying how to do the quotations, because it seemed like you had a poignant counter to what I said, but did not know how to make the direct argument. That is why I followed by apologizing if you did have this knowledge. Assume ignorance, offer potential improvement, and seek to right wrongs if incorrect.

    I'm not quite sure if you're referencing 4chan here, or where you have experience with "angry marines" (or to be frank exactly what that means). While we agree on pricing being...perhaps a bit less than what would be intuitive... I contend that there is no game which is only for a child. Toy soldiers and make believe are great at age 8, but a strategy game with complexity as great as chess should not be dismissed because you use plastic figures. If we were to dismiss all things not directly useful to daily living the only thing written down would be that which tells us how to complete tasks, and the literature which informs so much of our world wouldn't exist because of its frivolity.

    Having a good IP, and a profitable empire are two separate things. Look at Nintendo. The Wii printed money, until the market was saturated. A lack of software meant the sales dried up, and the last I checked Nintendo was in a financial tail spin. Games Workshop has done a much better job here, but that is because they have no functional competition. Rather than branching out and experimenting now, they rest on their laurels. I fear the lack of experimentation and diversification. The lack of players on Dawn of War II is a symptom of this.

    In short, two years ago the Unreal Tournament 2004 community was still alive and thriving. Nearly a decade of gaming, and going strong. Dawn of War II managed less than three years. Unreal Tournament outlived countless competitors because of its pedigree, and its quality. The Games Workshop IP (at least the RTSs that THQ published) has the quality, yet lacks pedigree. Given the insane depth of the universe, pedigree should not be a problem. My only conclusion is the Games Workshop is not leveraging their amazing IP. After more than a decade I'm unsure if Games Workshop will be able to change, once their older business ventures bear less fruit.

    Being proven wrong would be nice. Unfortunately, I'm too jaded to see anything but earnings being met and innovation therefor being placed on the back burner. If Sega runs with the IP, then I owe a retraction of my fears. If all we have after the IP auctioning is the same development under a new name then I'll reserve judgement.

    I'm not sure about you, but I know of very few people who could separate the Tau from the Necrons and Space Marines. I know less who could give me what the difference is. Just about everyone familiar with RTSs can identify the Zerg, Protoss, and humans. I don't think that should be the case, and I think Games Workshop needs to rectify that problem. If they can't establish their IP to a wider market then they are doomed to slowly wither and decay.
  16. lanceknightnight New Member

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    These are Angry Marines. They use your picture some times. You will find lots to love and laugh at here.
    http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Angry_Marines

    I forgot the 1 in the name.

    For Wii I disagree with your thought there was a lack of of software. I think the same thing that happened in the 80s occurred. Too much garbage software. I know that is why I stopped buying Wii goods. Too many games were real loosers to the point I would not buy even cheap games for the fear of getting something near unplayable.

    Your comment on the unreal engine misses my point. That is the community running the game, DOW was run by the company. Community wants to save money and keep it "alive" company wants to have it make money. If a game ceases to make money you drop it. Also my other point is the DOW series has always had a 1 person focus. The multi player though cool was always second to the story. It is a game you play, beat, do online play for a year of time then set it down. The game was also plagued by forum and game play trolls. This sucked the fun out of multi quickly. DOW2 had a differing issue in that the single player was a totally different game from the multi. The Multi was the same game through each edition and truely survived based on expansion packs. If the most popular mods were released in an easier fashion or used to make cheap updates the game could have stayed viable longer. But the game was built on variety and the introduction of new stuff. Blizzard games like star-craft make huge efforts to trim down. DOW was not a trim down game. You could play DOW and never use entire branches of development in your army for a game. DOW was too experimental and too option filled to not fatigue players.

    GW and experimentation. Yea they stink at this now. They had the dread fleet game which is nice. Like MOW which was great. Battle fleet Gothic was also fun. But these games could be played well with 10 models. Too cheat to keep producing. Great game I wish they just gave you one giant box of rules, 2 fleets and all the stuff. They came close to this as you really did not need more then the starting box but this is a poor business model. As an old Epic player I loved that game but they priced themselves out of relevance and did a rules change that was drastic. Too drastic. Their current trike is warhammer, 40k and Hobbit. They have kept this model. It is always 3. The re release of space hulk was good and so is some of the new market. See GW is a profit driven public business. This gets to my point on the valuation of the stock. They are profitable and huge. But the stock market hates companies that experiment. The market loves innovation but the time of seeing if an item sells is bad. This makes GW stagnant. The innovation in the game comes from Fantasy Flight. FF is where the IP develops any more. GW is not able to due to the constraints of being a profitable public company. FF can try out this stuff and innovate and pass off earnings and new ideas to GW. Basically I see FF as the hope of GW and the IP. FF has many old games they now own rights to and are good enough Disney trusts them with Star wars. FF is where new GW games will be seen again in a new way. This includes many games I listed above and perhaps the old fantasy kingdom game and many more. GW cannot fail or the stock valuations will vacillate by huge amounts, but FF can. This is where innovation will come from and over a 5 year maturation period be added.

    SEGA I just looked into this. SEGA has warhammer rights but lost the 40k rights. The company that has them is not an exclusive holder of said rights so not all is lost but the company that has them made some very bad games. It looks like the next game will be an FPS. yuck. They also have a plants vrs zombie clone for pads. yuck.

    http://store.steampowered.com/app/254650/

    This is sad because SEGA has made offers to release DOW 3 and use the IP but GW got the guy above. I thought a large multi national that wanted to pay money to work with a studio you had approved over 10 times would be a rummer stamp. Especially since you trust them with another franchise. I was wrong. Face palm. SEGA even publicly announced interest. Face palm. Face palm.

  17. Bo$$

    Bo$$ Lab Extraordinaire

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    Hey if anyone wants to play sometime, give me a shout!

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