Microsoft Appeals Against the Record 899 Mln Euro EU Fine

[Davidelmo]

problem is more global than just Europe, many of these compaines are headquatered elsewhere, they are simply using th EU to access the MS code in the EU, then they can use it free of charge in anything they want. MS shouldn't have to bow down to the EU, no one should to be honest. They are more corrupt than any middle easter dictatorship could ever dream of being.

If MS fails in the appeal they can go to online ordering/shippping also, or ship to retailers only that order from the US. It would cost Europe more money then, but close the MS office in Europe and transer all stocks to the American market. Simple as that, then jack the price up 20%, lock out the code these people have obtained and write new code they have to buy. MS shouldn't have to give anything away. IF i was Steve Ballmer id make it hurt the entire continents economy. Not to mention it would give them more time to improve there products for the other markets that actully want the products and are willing to play by MS's game. Shut down xbox live, stop 360 warranty service and sales ect of MS products in all EU nations ect, make it impossible without paying extravagant fees to even use an MS product in Europe. I promise that will catch the EU's eye and make them revoke there stupidity

That is seriously stupid. In case you hadn't realised, Europe is a bigger market than the US and no company is going to cut out a HUGE proportion of their profits.

Also, MS are certainly guilty of anti-competition laws. Besides, I don't know why we are fighting.. in the end this works out better for us all. More competition = better products and cheaper prices. A monopoly isn't good for anyone except MS.

 

[MAXLD]

problem is more global than just Europe, many of these compaines are headquatered elsewhere, they are simply using th EU to access the MS code in the EU, then they can use it free of charge in anything they want. MS shouldn't have to bow down to the EU, no one should to be honest. They are more corrupt than any middle easter dictatorship could ever dream of being.

If MS fails in the appeal they can go to online ordering/shippping also, or ship to retailers only that order from the US. It would cost Europe more money then, but close the MS office in Europe and transer all stocks to the American market. Simple as that, then jack the price up 20%, lock out the code these people have obtained and write new code they have to buy. MS shouldn't have to give anything away. IF i was Steve Ballmer id make it hurt the entire continents economy. Not to mention it would give them more time to improve there products for the other markets that actully want the products and are willing to play by MS's game. Shut down xbox live, stop 360 warranty service and sales ect of MS products in all EU nations ect, make it impossible without paying extravagant fees to even use an MS product in Europe. I promise that will catch the EU's eye and make them revoke there stupidity

That's funny... M$ is probably one of the most monopolists companies of the entire planet and you say EU is corrupt? I'm not saying the people at EU are angels, but in terms of corruption, USA and his companies are way ahead on that corruption subject. Why do you think the big companies have HQ in the US? It's all about the money, the ways to convince foreign "brains" to go work there and the taking credit + profit for work done by them.

Ballmer may look like an idiot but he is not that stupid. A lot of european companies and public institutions are already changing to Linux, free and open-source sofwares. Also, PS3 and Wii sales are kicking xbox's ass.
M$ needs, but more importantly: "wants" to fight those tendencies. Do you think Ballmer and M$ worry about piracy at schools and students? They tolerate it, because it's a way to students to get used to their software. When they grow up they already know how to work it THEIR software. Those learning programs for kids are not for the good cause, that's an excuse to make contracts with companies and to make huge marketing campaigns. How about those stupid "Vista Ready" stickers? How about the Vista itself and their prices?
M$ doesn't really cares much about fines if they are making more money with those and other more "soft" strategies. They pay the fines but they gain a lot more during others processes.
At the end it's all about profit, whatever it takes.

 

[oli_ramsay]

Just a thought, 1 billion euros is a LOT of money, where is it going to go? As in what will it be spent on and who will it go to?

 

[Gam'ster]

Just a thought, 1 billion euros is a LOT of money, where is it going to go? As in what will it be spent on and who will it go to?

No idea but the average EU citizen wont see a penny of it , plus it will be swallowed up in some bureaucratic black hole.
On topic though why do people get so uptight when this comes up like it makes a difference to the average guy, ok maybe ( big what if ) the price of Windows goes up by £10 $20 but like thats a huge thing every few years or so, unless u buy 10+ copys of vista everyday.

Cheers
Gam

 

[mdm-adph]

Also, MS are certainly guilty of anti-competition laws.

Not even a question -- Microsoft are officially convicted criminals. See United States v. Microsoft, 87 F. Supp. 2d 30.

It's amazing how many people don't know this.

 

[Dangle]

Fing EU. Those european socialists will sue anybody for anything. Fing liberals. Why not sue Apple for keeping proprietary software, bundiling programs.

 

[flashstar]

If Microsoft does pay, it will only result in much higher prices for everyone (especially Europeans). The US isn't practicing "extreme capitalism" by any means. I'd say that our government is more focused on socialism than anything else (medicare, social security, medicaid much lower taxes for lower income citizens, etc.). We also contribute the most to WHO every year out of every nation in the world. "Total UN and MDB-Related Contributions Would Reach Almost $4 Billion" http://www.unausa.org/site/pp.asp?c=fvKRI8MPJpF&b=328791

I argee that Microsoft should just pull out of Europe long enough for the EU to drop the charge. It was 400 million Euros 2 years ago, 900 million euros this year, what's next? 2 billion euros?? Even though Microsoft is large, it can't afford to keep paying these ridiculous sums of money for no reason. The 900 million would be better spent on poor African countries.

 

[russianboy]

I can only say one thing M$ needs to be banned from EU nothing ells they never obay EU law enyway

All Power to the EU

Well then, have fun when Microsoft stops putting up with Europe's shit and pulls out of the market.

It would be a big loss for them, but Bill would certainly be happy knowing that 95% of all computer owners just got pwned. I certainly would.

Microsoft deserves every cent they get, their software is not the best, but the only one we have that can do "everything", from editing, to gaming, to casual use, to office work.

All power to Microsoft.

 

[Easy Rhino]

i wonder if it would even matter if microsoft stopped selling it's products to europe. would it make much difference? a lot european countries bootlegg their products anyway because it is too expensive. the EU knows this which is why they create these types of "anti-intellectual property" laws. microsoft should stand on principle and tell the EU to f-off, but in reality that move would be far more expensive than paying off the crooked EU politicians.

 

[Wile E]

Well, the US did pursue MS on matters like this, at least until the Bush administration came to power and decided to drop the punishment against MS. You agree with Bush on any other points, or just on the Microsoft ruling?

Yes, the US did pursue MS on matters, but not these matters. I'm commenting only on this specific issue. I never said MS were angels. This is a case where MS has every right to protect their intellectual property. It's theirs, they can charge whatever they want for it. If you don't like it, buy something else. There are plenty of easily accessible alternatives to MS products. Many of them are free. Do I personally like what MS charges for these services? No, I don't, but that doesn't change the fact that, that's the way capitalism works. Their IP = their prices.

And don't bring Bush into this argument. He has nothing to do with it. But to answer your question, no, there's not much I agree with Bush on.

 

[mdm-adph]

Yes, the US did pursue MS on matters, but not these matters. I'm commenting only on this specific issue. I never said MS were angels. This is a case where MS has every right to protect their intellectual property. It's theirs, they can charge whatever they want for it. If you don't like it, buy something else. There are plenty of easily accessible alternatives to MS products. Many of them are free. Do I personally like what MS charges for these services? No, I don't, but that doesn't change the fact that, that's the way capitalism works. Their IP = their prices.

And don't bring Bush into this argument. He has nothing to do with it. But to answer your question, no, there's not much I agree with Bush on.

(Oh, I admit referring to Bush was a red herring -- but it was so obvious a red herring it couldn't be anything other than funny. )

And until Microsoft redeems themselves somehow (unlikely), I'm going to view them in the very same skeptical light as I would all ex-cons. If someone brings up charges against Microsoft, I'm going to believe the plaintiff (considering Microsoft's history), unless Microsoft can eventually prove otherwise.

 

[Easy Rhino]

microsoft should hide all their code and build a platform that best suits their business. they shouldnt be forced by govts to reveal their company secrets. microsoft should even go so far as to build an OS that cripples software companies that go against it. that is capitalism. the weak companies die and the strong live and the consumer has the final say. dont like microsofts tactics? dont buy any of their products and dont buy anything that runs on windows. it is a fairly simple concept.

 

[Davidelmo]

Fing EU. Those european socialists will sue anybody for anything. Fing liberals. Why not sue Apple for keeping proprietary software, bundiling programs.

Because a monopoly is a great thing, right?

If Microsoft does pay, it will only result in much higher prices for everyone (especially Europeans). The US isn't practicing "extreme capitalism" by any means. I'd say that our government is more focused on socialism than anything else (medicare, social security, medicaid much lower taxes for lower income citizens, etc.). We also contribute the most to WHO every year out of every nation in the world. "Total UN and MDB-Related Contributions Would Reach Almost $4 Billion" http://www.unausa.org/site/pp.asp?c=fvKRI8MPJpF&b=328791

Correct. In fact the US spends more taxpayer money on "socialist" policies like healthcare than any country in the EU.

I argee that Microsoft should just pull out of Europe long enough for the EU to drop the charge. It was 400 million Euros 2 years ago, 900 million euros this year, what's next? 2 billion euros?? Even though Microsoft is large, it can't afford to keep paying these ridiculous sums of money for no reason. The 900 million would be better spent on poor African countries.

Seriously.. I can't believe how dumb this idea is. The EU is a massive market and do you have any idea how much it would cost to "pull out just long for the EU to drop the charge"? It's just ridiculous. Don't forget that the EU has more people than the USA and we also pay higher prices, thus generating more profit for MS.

As someone pointed out earlier, they shouldn't be allowed to flout the anti-competition laws just because they are a US company. The laws exist for a reason and MS have had plenty of warning, including a few lawsuits a few years ago. They know the stakes and the penalties and they still continued with anti-competitive practices.

microsoft should hide all their code and build a platform that best suits their business. they shouldnt be forced by govts to reveal their company secrets. microsoft should even go so far as to build an OS that cripples software companies that go against it. that is capitalism. the weak companies die and the strong live and the consumer has the final say. dont like microsofts tactics? dont buy any of their products and dont buy anything that runs on windows. it is a fairly simple concept.

It's a simple concept but unfortunately it totally unrealistic in the real world. I'm far from socialist but I can accept that unfettered capitalism benefits nobody about from Microsoft company directors. To make things better for you and me, we need competition in the marketplace.

 

[imperialreign]

If Microsoft does pay, it will only result in much higher prices for everyone (especially Europeans). The US isn't practicing "extreme capitalism" by any means. I'd say that our government is more focused on socialism than anything else (medicare, social security, medicaid much lower taxes for lower income citizens, etc.). We also contribute the most to WHO every year out of every nation in the world. "Total UN and MDB-Related Contributions Would Reach Almost $4 Billion" http://www.unausa.org/site/pp.asp?c=fvKRI8MPJpF&b=328791

not trying to de-rail this thread here, but in regards to that ^ . . .

I sure hope you're trying to be sarcastic, cause our government hasn't really done much to make a crap of difference in government run organizations and plans. They have yet to address any of the Social Security issues that were brought up 8+ years ago; they haven't made any beneficial improvements to the medicare system . . . for those that need the help from medicaide, it's extremelly difficult to obtain it, and even then they give you typically below what you need . . . the poor have become poorer, the rich have become richer, and the middle class has been crunched to the point where they're giving up necessities left and right just to make ends meet while falling further and further into debt - 1 in 7 americans currently have no form of health insurance, and can't afford health care without it, and those numbers continue to grow - and the majority of those uninsures all belong to the middle class.

For the last 8 years, our government has been run by a team of inept, inane, moronic idiots that care more about their own coffers and pockets than where this country is going . . .

/rant



as to the OP, although I don't think MS should have to pay out for their property, they are operating within a different market, and there are laws that govern that market just as there are here . . . and MS needs to play nice, so . . .

but, that kind of ruling has happened here in the US before, too, but only typically happens when one company has a corner on technology or intellectual property that all of a sudden becomes necessary for the rest of the market and their competitors. I can think of when the US fuel economy finally went over to unleaded fuel as being mandatory and de-facto, Amoco Fuels was forced by the government to share their knowledge of how to refine petroleum to that state, as no other fuel company knew how to do that yet.

But, even when a company is forced to cough up their intellectual property, that doesn't mean they need to tell everyone exactly how they do it, just what needs to be done. MS could have easily coughed up code that gets the job done, but it didn't have to exactly how the do it . . . meaning they would've had some use for the last decades worth of spaghetti code they've written . . .

 

[Davidelmo]

not trying to de-rail this thread here, but in regards to that ^ . . .

I sure hope you're trying to be sarcastic, cause our government hasn't really done much to make a crap of difference in government run organizations and plans. They have yet to address any of the Social Security issues that were brought up 8+ years ago; they haven't made any beneficial improvements to the medicare system . . . for those that need the help from medicaide, it's extremelly difficult to obtain it, and even then they give you typically below what you need . . . the poor have become poorer, the rich have become richer, and the middle class has been crunched to the point where they're giving up necessities left and right just to make ends meet while falling further and further into debt - 1 in 7 americans currently have no form of health insurance, and can't afford health care without it, and those numbers continue to grow - and the majority of those uninsures all belong to the middle class.

For the last 8 years, our government has been run by a team of inept, inane, moronic idiots that care more about their own coffers and pockets than where this country is going . . .

/rant

It was *attemped* socialism.. doesn't mean it worked.

Like I said, the US spends more taxpayer money on healthcare than any European country. The US spends almost 2x as much per person and you're right - it is a total shambles.

 

[das müffin mann]

ok we all get that Microsoft is a monopoly, but thats really the point here, the point is whether or not Microsoft has the right to protect its intellectual property, and no matter how much we hate Microsoft they really do have a right to protect their intellectual property, so they charge out the ass for there wares, but people buy it so they have no real reason for them to lower their prices, hell i wouldn't if i got people to spend 150+ on vista...

i think rhino said it best

microsoft should hide all their code and build a platform that best suits their business. they shouldnt be forced by govts to reveal their company secrets. microsoft should even go so far as to build an OS that cripples software companies that go against it. that is capitalism. the weak companies die and the strong live and the consumer has the final say. dont like microsofts tactics? dont buy any of their products and dont buy anything that runs on windows. it is a fairly simple concept.

and on the plus side, ONLY A FEW MORE MONTHS OF BUSH!!!

now that has been said, lets try and get away from this whole US socialism thing, doesn't really have any relevance to the topic at hand

 

[imperialreign]

I think MS should have the right to defend their IP, but only in the US - if the Euro market doesn't allow for such things, than MS needs to play by the rules . . .


but, in regards to that, if they had to share, MS would be perfectly legit releasing spaghetti code that gets the job done, but not effectivelly or efficiently - let the other guys figure out how to do that. So what if the code MS coughs up gets tha job done by processing through a wireless router to another computer that processes only half the code, then sends the file back to the originating machine, which then has to factor in the time of day, the tide cycle, the alighment of Vega to which solar latitude to calculate to the nth+178st digit of Pi so that final processing can be done to a float degree of 25+n decimal places? It gets the job done, and that's what the other companies are bitching about, right? That they couldn't figure that out to begin with?

Give them the baseline of how to get it done, and let them figure it out themselves; MS should be able to keep and protect their method of implimentation.

 

[Easy Rhino]

It's a simple concept but unfortunately it totally unrealistic in the real world. I'm far from socialist but I can accept that unfettered capitalism benefits nobody about from Microsoft company directors. To make things better for you and me, we need competition in the marketplace.

competition is the best, however govt cannot create artificial competition for the sake of fairness. that would be illogical. you can't say you are protecting the consumer by hurting the companies that the consumer has choosen to buy from. microsoft didnt become a mega-power overnight. so you cant make the arguement that people are forced to by microsoft products.

 

[Easy Rhino]

and on the plus side, ONLY A FEW MORE MONTHS OF BUSH!!!

people bash bush unfairly. bush is a symptom of our problems, not the cause.

 

[flashstar]

What has Bush done so poorly? He's made a few bad decisions over the years, but overall he is nowhere as inept as Jimmy Carter and he doesn't lie like Clinton.

The government can only truly address the social security and Medicare/aid conundrum by getting rid of these programs entirely. By slowly phasing out Medicare/aid and Social Security and allowing the free market to dictate medical prices, we can ensure that everyone who wants coverage gets covered because they will pay whatever the market deems the right amount for it. Health care isn't a right. Nowhere in the declaration or Constitution is there anything about one's health being guaranteed by the government. Worse of all though, our current system is severely underpaying physicians, causing many to turn away from the field. If you want a full explanation of our current system and solutions to it, pm me. My main point is that the government is creating an artificial command economy by regulating health care prices and this should be fixed by turning it back into a market economy.

On topic: MS has every right to protect their stuff.

 

[imperialreign]

What has Bush done so poorly? He's made a few bad decisions over the years, but overall he is nowhere as inept as Jimmy Carter and he doesn't lie like Clinton.

The government can only truly address the social security and Medicare/aid conundrum by getting rid of these programs entirely. By slowly phasing out Medicare/aid and Social Security and allowing the free market to dictate medical prices, we can ensure that everyone who wants coverage gets covered because they will pay whatever the market deems the right amount for it. Health care isn't a right. Nowhere in the declaration or Constitution is there anything about one's health being guaranteed by the government. Worse of all though, our current system is severely underpaying physicians, causing many to turn away from the field. If you want a full explanation of our current system and solutions to it, pm me. My main point is that the government is creating an artificial command economy by regulating health care prices and this should be fixed by turning it back into a market economy.

On topic: MS has every right to protect their stuff.

I completely agree that medicaide and SS should just be done away with entirelly - the systems are out-dated and far past their prime.

Although I understand your point that health care isn't a given right within the constitution - neither is it a given right in any of the governing basis of laws of any of the leading 25 industrialized countries . . . the countries that do have some form of basic health care though, look at it as providing a needed service to their citizens. I'm not saying that any government should have to pay for 100% of all medical expenses for every citizen, but we should at the very least be able to offer basic medical care. Anything that would require specialized treatment or otherwise should be up to the individual, IMO, and that's where health insurance could easily pick up the slack. There's no need for a contributing, productive member of society to have to shell out $150+ for a 15min office visit simply because they don't have insurance, and I firmly believe that no single individual should be turned away from any medical institution because they don't have coverage, either (and sadly, the number of people turned away from even hospitals is growing as well).

Partly, I believe the growing rates of doctors (although for the most part underpaid - they make a lot, but have to shell out a ton for malpractice insurance) is due to the malpractice insurance they have to pay - and those rates are due to the numbers of incompetent morons who're willing to bring a malpractice lawsuit against a doctor because they went in with cold-like symptoms, the doctor thinks they have a cold, and turns out it's the flu and they ahd to go back for a second visit - oh, well, you're still alive, you got over it . . . it just took longer. Doctors are only human, and make mistakes as well.

We need to crack down with an iron fist on frivilous lawsuits - seriously, we need a panel of judges that reviews cases before they even go to court, and just throw stuff out left and right. Call them "common sense analysts" - if it falls under the category of a lack of common sense, it's not worth the time to hear it.

Our government has done little to nothing to regulate health care costs, especially for those who have pre-existing conditions. Why should someone, fully productive and contributing to society, have to pay 3x as much, or more, than the next guy, simply because they have a pre-existing condition? That's biased and discriminatory; or what about the health care companies that want to play doctor and deny legitimate claims as soon as they land on their desk?







sorry bout the rant, and the jumping topic again, but . . . and to keep from further de-railing this thread, I'm just gonna stay out of this thread from here out

 

[Easy Rhino]

What has Bush done so poorly? He's made a few bad decisions over the years, but overall he is nowhere as inept as Jimmy Carter and he doesn't lie like Clinton.

that is my point. bush hasnt done anything terrible (although going to iraq on the most ludicrous of wmd evidence and not having congress vote to go to war is sad.) he has just continued the US on its path. if this were al gore or john kerry the same thing would be happening with very minor differences.

 

[Easy Rhino]

I completely agree that medicaide and SS should just be done away with entirelly - the systems are out-dated and far past their prime.

Although I understand your point that health care isn't a given right within the constitution - neither is it a given right in any of the governing basis of laws of any of the leading 25 industrialized countries . . . the countries that do have some form of basic health care though, look at it as providing a needed service to their citizens. I'm not saying that any government should have to pay for 100% of all medical expenses for every citizen, but we should at the very least be able to offer basic medical care. Anything that would require specialized treatment or otherwise should be up to the individual, IMO, and that's where health insurance could easily pick up the slack. There's no need for a contributing, productive member of society to have to shell out $150+ for a 15min office visit simply because they don't have insurance, and I firmly believe that no single individual should be turned away from any medical institution because they don't have coverage, either (and sadly, the number of people turned away from even hospitals is growing as well).

Partly, I believe the growing rates of doctors (although for the most part underpaid - they make a lot, but have to shell out a ton for malpractice insurance) is due to the malpractice insurance they have to pay - and those rates are due to the numbers of incompetent morons who're willing to bring a malpractice lawsuit against a doctor because they went in with cold-like symptoms, the doctor thinks they have a cold, and turns out it's the flu and they ahd to go back for a second visit - oh, well, you're still alive, you got over it . . . it just took longer. Doctors are only human, and make mistakes as well.

We need to crack down with an iron fist on frivilous lawsuits - seriously, we need a panel of judges that reviews cases before they even go to court, and just throw stuff out left and right. Call them "common sense analysts" - if it falls under the category of a lack of common sense, it's not worth the time to hear it.

Our government has done little to nothing to regulate health care costs, especially for those who have pre-existing conditions. Why should someone, fully productive and contributing to society, have to pay 3x as much, or more, than the next guy, simply because they have a pre-existing condition? That's biased and discriminatory; or what about the health care companies that want to play doctor and deny legitimate claims as soon as they land on their desk?







sorry bout the rant, and the jumping topic again, but . . . and to keep from further de-railing this thread, I'm just gonna stay out of this thread from here out

the main reason healthcare is expensive in the US is because of the HMOs. congress passed all sorts of laws requiring health insurance companies to cover all sorts of things in their premium costs. this drove up the cost of health insurance and many insurance companies started struggling. HMOs started popping up and congress embraced them as the answer to high insurance costs. this trend has continued. in every other industry in the history of industry, healthcare is the only one that technology has no decreased the cost of a service/product. go figure. if you guys has health insurance through the company you work for just look through the things that are covered. you probably pay between 30-40 bucks for yourself per paycheck for health insurance. look at what is covered. massages, new age care, yoga, and other things you probably dont need. but law force your insurance to cover those things. instead we need to do away with those regulations and let the consumer decide what kind of coverage we need. a lot of having car insurance. you only need in in case of a disaster but you pay out of pocket for regular maintainence.

 

[DaedalusHelios]

Fing EU. Those european socialists will sue anybody for anything. Fing liberals. Why not sue Apple for keeping proprietary software, bundiling programs.

What does liberal have to do with it? Extremist muslims that created 9/11 would fall under the "conservative" mindset(they limit womens rights amongst many other things). So do I call all republicans terrorists? Nope, because I am not an idiot that lumps all things I dislike into one category like a NeoCon(you are either with us, or you are a commy..... which evolved into calling people liberals(like its an insult, read its definition, which then evolved into calling people terrorists for some of the dumbest NeoCons).

Read more. Talk less.

 

[DaedalusHelios]

What has Bush done so poorly? He's made a few bad decisions over the years, but overall he is nowhere as inept as Jimmy Carter and he doesn't lie like Clinton.

On topic: MS has every right to protect their stuff.

The WMD lie was the worst lie in recent history. It was the motive for a war thats worse than Vietnam when it comes to money spent, and thats accounting for inflation.

Iraq war was useless and I said that before we went in, and you will learn that by the time we are out, hopefully.

The Afghanistan War needs more attention than its getting. That is the correct place to fight because thats what caused 9/11(terrorist training camps built with Saudi Arabian Funds).

Iraqi's did not cause 9/11, and neither did Saddam. If you didn't realize that, you need to read more on the issue.

Name me the thing(s) Bush did well....... then compare that short list with the long list of what he did wrong.:shadedshu