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My thoughts on Win7

Discussion in 'General Software' started by imperialreign, Jul 9, 2010.

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  1. imperialreign

    imperialreign New Member

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    Been using WIN 7 Ultimate x64 for a while now, and I quite like it . . . as much as it feels like I've mearly installed SP3 for my Vista Ultimate x64 installation, instead of a whole new OS. Either way, it's responsive, stable, and is what Vista should have been in the first place.


    BUT . . .


    . . . I am sick to ever-loving effin death of UAC/VirtualStore/Permissions and all the other "secure" BS that's been duct taped in.

    Quite frankly - for those who wish to purchase OS7 Home Edition(s), then fine, I can easily see how these "features" will keep the system secure and stable, saving the OS from those who don't know any better.

    But, for the other versions aimed more at "power users" (i.e. Professional and Ultimate) - get rid of this effin nonsense! At the very least, leave Professional in the "middle of the roads" stance. That is, if logged in as the owner/administrator, no UAC buggary, no VirtualStore tom-foolery, nor "permission denied" shennanigans. Ultimate should simply have the features cut entirelly - except for the "guest" user profile.

    Seriously - if you're going to aim "versions" of an OS at certain types of users, give them the freedom and versatility they're expecting, not simply the "Home Basic" version with a few (often pointless) features zip-tied into place. It irritates me (and countless others) to no end by being forced to have UAC enabled (as some programs won't work at all if it's even remotely disabled), by being denied simple file/folder operations (copying, deleting, relocating, editing), and having to go on effin safari to find files you just installed (because the OS thought it knew what was best for you and hid them in TwilightZone\ThisFolderDoesNotExist\ThisApplicationDoesNotExist\YouDontKnowWhatYoureDoing\ folder) . . . not to mention the amount of stress and tylenol required to re-assign user permissions, take ownership of files, run applications as an adminstrator and transfer security and sharing definitions over and over and over and over again (because, it seems, Vista/OS7 has extremelly short-term memory and can not seem to remember the owner/administrator setting these security settings 5 EFFIN MINUTES AGO) . . . and all it takes is a simple disclaimer on the boxes of these products (or in the user manual) that states concisely and clearly that usage of the OS via elevated user profiles risk possible system corruption, infection, yadda yadda, bladdidly blah, and MS can not and will not be held liable for your sanity, etc., etc., etc.

    I understand the point of these features, seriously I do . . . but there are those of us out there who are simply fed up enough with this tripe. Do us the favor of listening to the users . . . and if it means having to re-write the whole OS kernel to make these things happen - get back to effin work, MS. It's left me feeling like I've spent $300+ on a simple Vista service pack (and I'm sure I'm not the only one).
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  2. sttubs

    sttubs

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    You can disable the UAC yourself, just type in "UAC" in the search bar & it will lead you to the right area.
  3. eidairaman1

    eidairaman1

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    Programs that dont work without UAC enabled, what the hell are you talking about!!?
  4. AsRock

    AsRock TPU addict

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    Or you could type in the run box msconfig and go to tools and you'l see UAC enable\disable there too.


    What i think they should do is ask on OS install for all the crap you may or may not want sure it might be a load of crap but then they could have a automatic option too.
  5. imperialreign

    imperialreign New Member

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    I'm fully aware that I can enable or disable UAC, and via the start/run line . . . and that it can be used to launch apps with elevated security. Its' the fact that I have to go to that level of effort to do so that irks me . . . for every program.

    There are some apps that will not function correctly with UAC disabled, mostly games. They have a tendancy to crash immediately at startup (usually with an error box saying "this application has stopped working"), or run into issues while saving/loading. Not just games, either, some apps too.

    Sure, you can leave UAC in quiet mode, but that doesn't prevent 100% of pop-ups . . . combined with constantly having to take ownership of files sinply to do notepad edits, applying security permission changes that still do not grant me permission/access to my own files, the whole thing is just effed up.

    I can reason with such measures with Home Edition, and partially with Professional edition . . . but not with Ultimate.
  6. erocker

    erocker Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I do this after every install. Never get a popup. :)
  7. newtekie1

    newtekie1 Semi-Retired Folder

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    Go to that level of effort? It takes 10 seconds, and you only do it once. Hardly effort.:rolleyes:

    And no, you don't have to do it for every program, it is a global setting.

    Got any examples? Because I have yet to run into a single game or app that won't run with UAC disabled, in fact it is usually the opposite.

    With UAC completely off, none of this should be happening. In fact, most of what your original complaints in the first post shouldn't be happening with UAC either.

    Plus, the Professional and Ultimate editions do allow you to easily enable and use one true administrator account anyway.

    Considering the minor difference between Pro and Ultimate, I don't see why you would think they would for whatever reason make Ultimate less secure by default.
    AltecV1 says thanks.
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  8. francis511

    francis511

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    It is a pita. Just disable it
  9. Frick

    Frick Fishfaced Nincompoop

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    I like UAC. I just wish there was a way to have different settings for different programs. Like disable it with the most used programs you run in admin mode.
  10. imperialreign

    imperialreign New Member

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    <sigh>

    You guys aren't actually reading my posts, are ya?


    Yes, I understand turning UAC off is as simple as heading into the Control Panel>Security>UAC and disabling it . . . that hasn't changed since Vista. Same goes for "quiet mode," where UAC doesn't prompt for 95% of apps . . .

    Problem being, though, when you start running into issues with certain applications because UAC is disabled . . .


    But, again, when you need to disable, enable, disable, enable, disable, enable - that is when it become plain-ass tiresome. Not to mention, for changes to UAC to properly take effect, you need to *typically* reboot the SYS. Sometimes it's not needed, other times simply logging off the current user profile then logging back in is enough . . .


    Crysis and Crysis Warhead spring instantly to mind - with UAC disabled, the games have a bad habit of failing to launch . . . there's also been issues with the game crashing when loading or saving a game. Even still, leaving UAC enabled will let the program run - but you have to run as administrator, or - again - it will fail to launch. Oddly enough, I spent a decent amount of time trying to research any fix for this, and it appears that there isn't one, and that it doesn't affect everyone running Vista or OS7, x86 or x64.

    I've had problems with Sound Forge 10 and UAC . . . not that it fails to run entirelly (although it will crash upon launch whenever the mood strikes it), but that it's stability becomes questionable. Not to mention issues with how Vista/OS7 handle program access . . . these crashes usually take the form of crashing back to the desktop when applying edits to a track. The app creates a temp version of a track prior to the edit, which gets stored in VirtualStore - which forces limited access of said files for applications.

    My current bigger gripes have to do with editing tools for the STALKER X-Ray engine . . . the SDK apps will simply not run properly with UAC disabled. The tools are literally crippled . . . and, again, the issue with VirtualStore arises - whatever processing the tools do to rawdata files end up with the processed files being placed (by the OS) into the VirtualStore instead of the output folders (which allows the processed files to be viewed within the app), which requires hunting them down, moving them back to their output folders, closing the app, then re-starting it for the files to be viewable.

    Some 3rd party GPU apps seem to be hit or miss - some features won't work, depends (I guess) on how they try to access drivers. ATT is an example here on my end - to enable the OSD, UAC has to be enabled on my SYS.

    I don't mind leaving it enabled to make sure everything wants to run fine . . . it's the additional BS that really starts to get under my skin - having to constantly take ownership of files mearly to open/edit/save them with notepad or notepad++. Having to constantly move files from the VirtualStore to where I wanted to save it in the first place. Constantly having to re-assign user security permissions so that I can copy/move/delete folders and their contents. Not having 30 pop-ups asking if I want to continue with such operations once I've finally gained access to perform these tasks. Everything combined is a damn PITA - I have only one user profile (and I've verified this countless times), although there seems to be 3 for security/permissions purposes, and WIN continues to act as if there's 10 or more. Again, TBH, OS7 feels more like a $300+ service pack for Vista than anything else.


    Again, it's not just UAC - it's UAC plus the additional headaches of Vista/OS7's VirtualStore "environment", user profile security settings/permissions, and file/folder operation accessibility. These issues were present in Vista, and they're still present in OS7.

    I'm completely aware that both Professional and Ultimate allow one true admin account . . . but, again, that account does not prevent the above irritations from occuring. IMHO, such an elevated user account should be fully free of ALL the above headaches. No pop-ups saying "access denied" when trying to delete a file, no pop-up saying "access denied" when trying to save a file . . . no need to "take ownership" of a file to move/delete/edit it . . . no need to "run as administrator" to run an application with elevated privelages . . . no need to enabled/disable UAC . . . no need to move files out of a hidden VirtualStore . . . none of this tripe.

    I don't have a single problem with any of these issues for other user accounts - my issue lies in that the system owner/administrator/creator/deity/emperor or whatever else you want to call the big-wig-bad-ass running the whole shin-dig should be completely above the gestapo system security measures of Vista/OS7.

    re-read my above post, man . . . I'm not saying make it less secure - I'm saying that they need to do away with all the annoying BS that makes it an absolute chore to accomplish simple tasks and go about things as a SYS administrator should be able to. Leave that junk in place for guest and average user profiles, but get rid of the crap for administrator profiles.

    If you want to target a specific OS level at "power users," that's fine - except that we shouldn't have to feel like chaperoned pre-schoolers on a field trip. Leave all that for the average joe that doesn't know any better.





    -EDIT-



    Look, guys - just to make it 100% clear, this thread isn't solely about UAC . . . it's about the combined aggrevation of all the "administrative" actions one must take to perform common everyday tasks in Vista/OS7. It's about the fact that you sometimes can not uninstall a program from the control panel because WIN thinks you don't have administrator privelages. It's about high-traffic folders (like Documents and Settings) being locked from your access and requiring a "back door" hack & slash method to gain access, etc., etc.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2010
  11. AltecV1

    AltecV1 New Member

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    always had it disabled and never ran into any problems with games...and im a hardcore gamer ,i play almost every game that comes out :cool:

    im quessing the fault lies between the chair and the keyboard :rolleyes:
  12. imperialreign

    imperialreign New Member

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    Again - this thread is NOT solely about UAC. :banghead:


    BTW, I like the assumption. You do know assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups, right? :shadedshu
  13. EiSFX

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    i know your saying this isen't soly on UAC but you talking about games that don't work with UAC disabled thats the first thing i do when i install Win 7 is completely disable UAC and Action center and i play all thoes games your used for examples like Crysis and warhead never had a problem with them once with UAC disabled and i don't need to run it in admin mod at all even with UAC enabled i'm thinking you actully have a problem with your windows installation and not the features in windows
  14. mdsx1950

    mdsx1950 New Member

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    +1 to eidairaman1 and newtekie

    Your just making too much of big deal. :laugh:
    Why would you do that, if you don't like, just disable it. I just disabled it right after i installed windows. Just one restart. Or just disable it before you shutdown your PC and the next time you start it up it will be gone.

    There is absolutely nothing that requires UAC to be enabled.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2010
  15. Frick

    Frick Fishfaced Nincompoop

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    I actually kinda agree on that entire Full Admin thing. I was suprised (in a good way) when I had to take control over my 200GB of random junk I had from my XP install to be able to actually do anything about it. Running at full admin should grant you access to everything. But then, do you really NEED to be emperor of the system all the time? You know that's a security risk, and one of the main reasons Linux is more secure than win XP.

    Anyway, I still think a lot of this could be "solved" (because it feels like you and the rest of us don't agree on wether it's an issue or not ^^) with individual setting for each program. That was my main dissapointment with 7 actually. :(

    BTW, it IS kinda wierd you have problems running stuff with UAC turned off. I wonder why that is? Maybe I can ask someone at work today..
    imperialreign says thanks.
  16. imperialreign

    imperialreign New Member

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    It's not all games, and even with the ones that have issues it's not consitent - sometimes they'll run fine, other times they won't. Sometimes the issues only crop up when saving loading, etc.

    With applications, it seems to be just as random (no consistency between programs, either) . . .

    Even stil, again, UAC is not my primary gripe - it's all the other PITA issues bundled in. Re-read my above posts as I'm not describing it for the 4th time here.


    Really? Have you tried running apps that don't have signed executables?

    Even stil, again, UAC is not my primary gripe - it's all the other PITA issues bundled in. Re-read my above posts as I'm not describing it for the 4th time here.


    One doesn't need to - but as I (and countless others can attest to) . . . did we have any issues when running XP?

    Those of us the market would consider "power users" already know how to keep a system secure and stable, without the need of an OS intervening on our behalf. Which is kinda the point I was alluding to in my first post . . . the upper end OS is targeted more at such buyers, and we should have a user profile that is not so restrictive, give us full control of the whole OS like we had with XP - let us handle the security/stability concerns. Most of us already use 3rd party apps that will warn of questionable software trying to access SYS files or make changes to registry keys, and these apps make handling such instances easy . . . unlike Vista/OS7's way of handling things, which quarantines the user and their ability to function, as well as the application itself. I'm not trying to start turning this into an XP/Vista/OS7 debate, just mearly using XP as an example of ease of interface.

    Anyhow, thanks for actually reading my posts :toast:

    I have no idea - I've tried boiling it down, but have been unsuccessful in narrowing the cause of such issues. Sadly, doing some goggling, it seems there are others out there with similar problems.
  17. LifeOnMars

    LifeOnMars New Member

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    :) I agree, to assume makes an ASS out of U and ME
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  18. Frick

    Frick Fishfaced Nincompoop

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    BTW, I just have to say that I actually thought about Mac OS7 for a second when I saw this thread. :laugh:

    [​IMG]
  19. demonbrawn

    demonbrawn New Member

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    I think you have a very unfortunate situation. I haven't had a single gripe with my Win 7 after turning off UAC. I like the new OS just fine =)
  20. newtekie1

    newtekie1 Semi-Retired Folder

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    I'm not going to go over specific parts of your post bit by bit. Crysis and Crysis Warhead both work perfectly fine with UAC disabled, I've played throught both several times without a single issue. Your problems are not related to UAC or Vista/Win7, as they are not common problems. If it was UAC causing the problems with apps/games crashing or not running, it would happen all the time every time, and be completely repeatable. What you descirbe is your computer being unstable. Things crashing randomly are a symptom of instability, not a UAC issue.

    Now, again, for your complains about all the "administrative" actions that one must take, again all of that goes away when UAC is disable. There is no VirtualStore BS with UAC disabled. There is no problems uninstalling programs from control panel, not even an extra pop-up, when UAC is disabled. Documents and Settings is not locked with UAC disabled, you can access any folder you want without any hassle. If you are continuing to have problems like you discribed, then you obviously have not listenned to use or actually read our posts about disabling UAC, or you have not disabled UAC properly(I don't see how that is possible...)

    Also, since you can't read posts, Professional and Ultimate editions both allow you to easily enable and use ONE true administrator account. So all your rambling about how Pro and Ultimate should be differeent...well they are! They allow this true administrator to be enabled and used with just a few simple mouse clicks! You can use that account, not have any of the hassles you describe AND have UAC enabled(since you think it needs to be for some reason).

    Ummm... UAC being enabled prevents those from running without first warning the user. Disabling UAC allows them to run freely. That is the entire point of UAC.

    Again, re-read our posts. All of your gripes are UAC related, and turning UAC off gets rid of them. So yes, this UAC is your primary gripe.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2010
    Crunching for Team TPU 50 Million points folded for TPU
  21. Super Sarge

    Super Sarge New Member

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    What MS need to do with UAC is if you select a program not to run with UAC disabled it should remember this. I personally do not UAC and it took less then 5 seconds to turn it of, one of the first things I did when I did a complete clean install of W7 and all my programs.
  22. Darknova

    Darknova

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    Are you turning UAC entirely off, or just in to the "quiet mode", because that's too entirely different things, UAC off is far more like XP with the expection that a few programs require administrator privileges (which can be set once via the shortcut - no need to right-click every time).

    I've been running W7 Ultimate x64 since not long after it's release and it's primarily a gaming machine, and I've not had problems, apart from much older games that require a quick workaround (google is your friend) and then they're fine (Jedi Outcast springs immediately to mind).

    BTW, running Crysis and Crysis Warhead without issues (apart from the fact the last level is a pig to run on my machine)

    Also, as to the permission denied problem, with UAC off and running with a full admin account I've only ever had that problem when accessing core system files, which I've then had to "take ownership of", but you can find a tweak to stick that in your right-click menu for easier use.
  23. Super Sarge

    Super Sarge New Member

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    Last edited: Jul 9, 2010
  24. Timonthy New Member

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  25. mdsx1950

    mdsx1950 New Member

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    Yes of course. And just like newtekie said, disabling UAC which takes less than a minute, lets you run any app, whether its a legal app or an app that can take you to jail for the rest of your life lol.

    I used Windows XP from the time it was released until end of last year and then straight off switched to Windows 7 Ultimate and no i didnt have any issues with Windows XP and i didnt have any issues with Windows 7 either.

    Those security issues are there as many business people use Win 7 Pro, Ultimate and security is there for the safety of their files. Things like UAC are there to stop unwanted programs running with out the admin's permission which could corrupt their data. And i said before, you can simply switch it off simply from a few clicks ( Click the small flag on the right hand corner => Open Action Center=> Change User Account Control Settings and drag down the bar=> Click ok) :D

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