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NVIDIA Removes Restriction on ATI GPUs with NVIDIA GPUs Processing PhysX

Discussion in 'News' started by btarunr, May 28, 2010.

  1. Helper

    Helper New Member

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    Actually, you can still use an Ageia PPU along w/ any other GPU. But you have to get old Physx pack from 2008, one before they put up restriction and stopped supporting it. It'll have it's own blue control panel and settings to test the PPU etc, better then Nvidia's integration. :) Kinda cute but doesn't really justify wasting a PCI slot IMO LOL.

    Anyway, it was obvious they didn't "remove" restriction. They're Nvidia and that won't happen. The block was on Nvidia's CP level, in SLi&Physx settings. When used with a non-Nvidia GPU, Physx option disappeared. Now that they changed UI to a new one on that page in 257.15, block went away on first rev beta drivers. They forgot to put it back, LOL. Now I wonder if I can do SLi on Server 2003, without changing it to XP x64... maybe tri-way SLi, or how about Quad SLi on XP based OS? Is there ANY reason why I can't, other then their policy? Man Nvidia is stupid...
     
  2. shevanel

    shevanel New Member

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    this is good and this is also hilarious.
     
  3. newtekie1

    newtekie1 Semi-Retired Folder

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    There isn't really a reason that CUDA can't run on ATi hardware. CUDA is not a hardware part of the GPUs, CUDA is all software, built into the driver that uses standard unified Shaders to do work. In theory any GPU with unified shaders should be able to use CUDA.

    CUDA came out well after several of the supported GPUs, and support was added via drivers and nothing more, there is nothing in the physical GPU that enables CUDA.

    Now, at this point, it would probably be a better idea to port PhysX onto Streams, as ATi definitely isn't going to add CUDA support to their drivers.

    The problem with doing it like that is there might be components on the board behind the PCI-E x1 slots that would still interfere with the PCI-E connector on the card. In the case of his P5Q, there are components that would prevent the card from going either PCI-E x1 slot if you just filed the back of the PCI-E slot.

    That is probably an even better idea then porting it to Streams! You here that nVidia? Get on it.

    I've said they should do this since Vista first showed the problem with only allowing one type of graphics driver active at a time.

    Though I would prefer that they still put display outputs on the card, and make it a graphics card, and instead just put out special drivers that you use that make it a a co-processor in the OS. So if you want to use it as a graphics card, you use the standard drivers, if you want to use it as a PPU only, you use the special drivers.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2010
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  4. Mussels

    Mussels Moderprator Staff Member

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    cuda is a language to translate program calls to work on Nvidia GPU's. ATI GPU's are not nvidia GPU's. CUDA would never work there.

    lets use a more simple example.

    HD-DVD and BLU-RAY.

    They both store on the same sized medium (GPU's) they both do the same thing (hold HD content). No matter what the hell you do, they're not compatible. you can convert the movie (the program) to work on the alternative format by re-burning it on the other disk type (recoding the program to work on openCL instead of CUDA, for example)... but no matter what you do, the language is keyed to that hardware.

    people just dont seem to get that while you can code a CUDA app to work on another direct compute style system, YOU CANT RUN CUDA ITSELF ON ANYTHING BUT NVIDIA HARDWARE.
     
  5. wahdangun

    wahdangun New Member

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    but i kind a gree wit newtikie, it's just like ordinary CPU. just think about it, windows can run in either AMD or intel branded, or you can take extreme example like linux, it can run on PS3(with other OS support) or intel CPU although it's have really different architecture (PPC vs X86)
     
  6. newtekie1

    newtekie1 Semi-Retired Folder

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    You can use all the examples you want, I get what you are trying to say, you are just wrong in saying that CUDA is part of the GPU. That was my point.

    It is not part of the GPU, it is entirely software based, there is nothing special required in the GPU for CUDA to run on it. Your original statement was that it is a hardware part of the GPUs, and it is not.

    As it is right now, CUDA can not run on ATi hardware. However, there is no reason it couldn't, it just needs to be programmed to do so. Granted, it is never going to happen because ATi and nVidia could never work together to do it, but there is no reason other than that and the huge amount of time and developement it would take that it couldn't.

    I'll even use an example of my own, or rather a more accurate version of your example from earlier:

    It is like running OSX on non-Apple hardware. OSX is entirely software, there isn't really anything in the hardware that is OSX. At this point, Apples hardware doesn't have a special part built in that allows OSX to run, there isn't anything special about Apple's hardware.

    But when you try to run OSX on non-Apple hardware, 9 times out of 10 it bails out a few seconds into the boot sequence. However, you do a little work, a little massaging, and pretty soon you have OSX running on non-Apple hardware.
     
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  7. WSP

    WSP New Member

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    if so, then cuda is an apps writings exclusively for nvidia hardware?
     
  8. human_error

    human_error

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    GPUs don't use the same arcitecture/instruction sets in the way cpus do. ATi and nvidia gpus have different instruction sets and very different arcitectures which although similar from a high level point of view at the level where CUDA/stream operate they are extremely different.

    Your example of running linux on the cell BE processor in a ps3 and running it on an x86 processor is a bad one as if you were to compare the kernels of the operating system on a ps3 and compare it with that of linux on x86 you would see it is completely different to accomodate the different arcitecture. Your reply would no doubt be "but yes but at the level that matters linux runs on both systems". My response to that is yes - but in the gpu world the kernel is equivalent to CUDA and stream and the linux os which sits on top of the kernel would be the applicaion implementing cuda and stream calls.

    If you wanted to code something which runs on both ati and nvidia arcitectures then you would use openCl as ATi and Nvidia have built their own driver level translators to convert openCl calls to match their arcitecture - this is not a small task and removes the need to translate between cuda and stream. Saying nvidia could port cuda to run on ati hardware would be the same as saying intel could port their gpu drivers to run ati hardware - the purpose of the code at that level is to provide an interface to the hardware (CUDA is a hardware API as it gives access to hardware calls specific to certain hardware arcitectures, as opposed to a software API such as directx which is intercepted by drivers which then make the hardware calls appropriate to the hardware which is installed).
     
  9. Mussels

    Mussels Moderprator Staff Member

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    the HARDWARE can do it, but you're forgetting that we're talking about hte language used BETWEEN the software and the hardware.

    CUDA apps converted to run on stream = entirely possible

    running CUDA itself is whats it impossible, and what i'm getting sick of seeing people saying.
     
  10. newtekie1

    newtekie1 Semi-Retired Folder

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    Running CUDA itself is not impossible, just not likely. CUDA, being entirely software, can be re-written and modified to run on pretty much any hardware, it is just up to nVidia what they are willing to do.
     
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  11. W1zzard

    W1zzard Administrator Staff Member

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    nvidia's definition of cuda is that it is the hardware architecture enabling compute on their gpus. but you are correct in a way that it exposes a software interface for which an emulator can be written
     
  12. KainXS

    KainXS

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    it would probably be so slow you might be better off trying to emulate a ps3 on xbox360 or vice verca.

    I think it might work but would take so much time to recode that you would be better off making a new standard completely.
     
  13. dlpatague

    dlpatague

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  14. OnBoard

    OnBoard New Member

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    Now if it was true that main reason for not allowing ATI/NVIDIA combo is the QA work, then leave it enabled just in Beta drivers. Everyone would be happy enough, who needs support.

    But it just isn't the truth, only thing needed on WHQL drivers would be an option to the control panel with hybrid support and default is off. Turn it on and you get a message "NVIDIA doesn't support AMD/NVIDIA hybrid GPU configurations, you use this option at your own risk"

    Everyone wins and is happy, but no. They purposely make it now work, just because they can and even say it them selves that you need to hack the drivers to use your NVIDIA card..
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  15. u2konline

    u2konline

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    That has nothing to do with anything.

    After watching the video, its nothing to be all hype about it, i never really notice anyway in games. The only type of physx i notice was in timeshift, which looks great. But overall, physx, nvidia, i won't cry if the stuff is disable in games. Nothing important to me.
     
  16. newtekie1

    newtekie1 Semi-Retired Folder

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    I like this idea, disable it in the WHQL drivers, and leave it enabled in the beta drivers. Sounds like a perfect solution, since they don't support beta drivers anyway, they don't have to worry about supporting something that might not work.
     
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  17. bebbee New Member

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    i hate these overpriced and expensive new GPUs.

    a GTS 250 is still a fast and bang for the bucks card.

    i am against all these new cards.
     
  18. TRIPTEX_CAN

    TRIPTEX_CAN

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  19. Robert-The-Rambler

    Robert-The-Rambler

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    As long as we have a chance to at least try GPU PhysX

    I'm happy with a use at your own risk policy. Hell, that rule applies every time I eat out. :toast:
     
  20. Loosenut

    Loosenut

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    +1 Robert, you ain't ramblin' now... :toast:
     
  21. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

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    You are to smart to buy into that PR crap from Nividia.

    First of all name one thing in your experience that you have NEVER had a problem with in the computer world. Even my case panel sometimes doesn't close as it should but never once did I think "I'm going to file a class action lawsuit against Coolermaster because one screw doesn't ALWAYS line up!" I mean really both Nvidia and ATI have driver problems with SOMETHING in EVERY release. If they didn't why do they keep releasing updates? Because something new or old isn't 100% compatible!

    A lone joker in the hacking world created a decent mod that works 99% of the time. What do you think Nvidias RD crew could do? Please this QA crap is just PR so they don't seem like greedy bastards. Not that its a bad thing wanting to make money off of what you paid for but don't insult peoples intelligence.
     
  22. xBruce88x

    xBruce88x

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    what about with my 9600gt in the lead and the hd3200 chipset? well i'll try the drivers out and let you guys know!
     
  23. Benetanegia

    Benetanegia New Member

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    I don't buy any PR crap, I've been saying this for a long long time, long, even before they said anything. Because I know for a matter of fact that things work that way. Not in the GPU or driver bussiness, but I've been there, so I know what is about. It doesn't matter if the QA is that important in the end or if it works at all, they have to do it, because in many countries it's obligatory. If they spent time and money and it doesn't work, no worries, but oh friend if it doesn't work and no QA was done... be prepared.

    And they just don't want to spend the money on QA on something that is not really in their hands. A lot of that QA has to be made on AMD's end and they will just not do it. Even when only Nvidia cards are used, every PhysX driver update needs the latest GPU driver as well, or everything gets fucked up soon, that's something that I have suffered from. So a mix between Ati and Nvidia is always going to be worse.

    Now, the idea of allowing it on the beta... that could work, but there's still the fact that it would not work on Vista systems and that's a nightmare to explain to average joe and it owuldn't be very different than the hack anyway. The hack has probably more support than the beta regarding Ati+Nvidia setup.
     
  24. Mussels

    Mussels Moderprator Staff Member

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    The QA was already done... AGEIA PPU's worked on ATI, nvidia, SIS, matrox, etc.
     
  25. Benetanegia

    Benetanegia New Member

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    That was a looooong time ago. Yes, GPU drivers from 2005 worked on my Radeon 9600 and games from that era too, but try running them today... They may work on many cases, but you are surely going to find a lot of problems. As a company Nvidia just wants to stay clear from any problems of that nature. Plain and simple.

    The reason Nvidia is disabling PhysX is the same that Ati discontinued the X1000 series of cards, even when they were still selling them. There's a point in which a company doesn't want to spend more money in something that only few people are gonna use.
     

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