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Official AMD Radeon 6000 Series Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'AMD / ATI' started by TechPowerUp Forums, Jul 28, 2010.

  1. Thatguy New Member

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    I don't think I implied it was a worthy exscuse. I was simply stating the obvious. They simply got screwed by TSMC on 32nm which created a hole avalanche of problems on 40nm.
     
  2. EastCoasthandle

    EastCoasthandle New Member

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    I wasn't implying that you were suggesting that it was an excuse.
     
  3. Super XP

    Super XP

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  4. CDdude55

    CDdude55 Crazy 4 TPU!!!

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    It fights pretty well with Nvidia's 4 series, but fails to impress overall in both performance and pricing mainly in regards to the cheaper and equally performing GTX 570 and especially the 580 (though the 580's pricing is much higher).
     
  5. Bjorn_Of_Iceland

    Bjorn_Of_Iceland

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    Drivers would improve it but not leaps imo.. what should change are the applications that utilizes the card so it can achieve full potential.. closely working with devs.. in which from what ive seen ever since, ati is kind of not very rabid in terms of driving that initiative.. hence we have a gun without bullets. Too good a hardware, but really needs more push on the software side.
     
  6. Benetanegia

    Benetanegia New Member

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    No, actually you are wrong. If you read the Anandtech or many other articles Cayman in the end is pretty much what it would have been, except that it has much less SIMDs. VLIW4 was planned in 2007-2008. ILP (instruction level parallelism) is exactly the same they were expecting 3 years ago, it's only TLP (thread level parallelism) which has not increased. TLP however is irrelevant, since it remains about the same as with Cypress and any TLP optimization improvements made in the last 5 years should help Cayman too. Problem is not drivers, I tell you that. 5%. On average that's all the improvements you're going to see in a single dirver release and most of it will be from game specific code, not architectural optmizations. In a few specific games you'll see up to 20% in some others 0%. Fermi cards will see similar improvements.

    I think Baumann is not talking about drivers, but about games. Game developers had not enough time with Cayman and hence they optimized for 4+1 (4 simple+1 complex) execution and that can be troublesome since Cayman can only do 4 simple or 1s+1c. AMD has clearly stated that complex operations are very few and afar, but I think they maight have understimated them:

    You know, in GF104 the first thing that Nvidia did when they increased shader count per SM to 48 SP, was no other thing than doubling the number of special function units. The graphics world is ruled by 2 companies, and you have to think both know what they're doing, so if one says or thinks special function operations are meaningless and the other one obviously thinks the opposite, truth must be somewhere in the middle, which means that is not as critical as Nvidia thinks, but neither is as meaningless as AMD thinks. In the chunks of code that were optimized for 4+1 execution Cayman is half as slow as Cypress and no driver will fix that. I think that AMD understimated the ammount of time that happens or the effect of the latency that this might introduce in the rest of the pipeline no matter how scarce they are. Drivers again will no fix this magically. Newer games coming up in the future (which I hope will finally depart from consoles) will be better suited to Cayman, then again they will be much better suited for Fermi too. As it stands now, both Cayman and Fermi are "severely" crippled by software development, while Evergreen is not because it's the same architecture as 5 years ago.

    EDIT: Ultimately, if drivers are such a problem, how is it that there's no difference between Cat 10.10 (leaked benches), 10.11 and 10.12? If drivers were such a problem you would see a fair increase with every driver and there's none. What's the explanation? AMD has been optimizing since before 10.10, but has yet to include the optimizations? They didn't include any of those optimizations on the launch drivers boxed with the retail cards? Not even in the drivers sent to reviewers? Not even yet on Cat 10.12 which is the next driver release after the launch of Cayman? If that's the case, how stupìd that is?
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2010
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  7. buggalugs

    buggalugs

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    AMD always close the gap with driver improvements more so than Nvidia, the 5870 is much closer to 480 performance now than when it was first released. Went from like 20% to around 7% difference. Same happened with the 4890 ended up almost the same as the 285.

    Also Nvidia have their TWIMTBP program so most of their driver optimisations are done before the game is released whereas AMD have to wait for the game to be released before tweaking their drivers.

    I read at AMD where their drivers are made 3 months in advance because it takes time for certification etc, so the only driver we've seen is probably the initial driver. I'm confident we'll see some big improvements with 11.0 or 11.1 .

    Anyway i'm going to buy a 6970 as soon as the price settles, its still a dam powerful card for the price.

    In my country the 580 is $700(so forget that) then there is a 570 for $450 or the 6970 for $500 and the price will drop closer to the 570 in a few weeks so for the price its a great card imo. For most people i think its a choice between the 570 and 6970 and i think the 6970 is a better option.

    My 5870 is still playing most games maxed out, but can struggle with tessellation in games like metro so i can use the extra performance of the 6970 in that area. I plan on getting a 120Hz monitor so the extra features of 6970(like HDMI1.4) will suit. If i choose to go eyefinity down the track i know i can do it with 1 card on the 6970.


    As always its about price/performance and both the 570 and 6970 are powerful cards for a reasonable price but i'm going with the 6970 for the reasons above, and its advantage over the 570 should improve over the next few months.

    I'm keen to see what non reference models pop up too in the next few weeks, we havent seen any performance numbers utilising that second bios. Keen to see if Asus will make something special like the 5870 ROG.
     
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  8. Benetanegia

    Benetanegia New Member

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    That is absolutely false, just a myth that originated in the HD2900 days, a placebo to make ati users feel better back then. The myth still survives and is not true at all as has never been true.

    New drivers do inprove performance for new games and the effect of this is a little bit more pronounced on Ati cards, because Nvidia does the homework before release whereas AMD doesn't, but both improve performance after release of the game too. But that's after new games are released, not new cards, and doesn't affect average performance of all released games. Old games even if they are just 3 months old rarely get any significant improvement after the first improvement. Is a one time improvement that happens to especific games.

    Regarding GTX480 vs HD5870 and GTX285 vs HD4890, here's results from the launch of GTX480

    [​IMG]

    And here from the HD6970 review, latest available data for GTX480 and HD5870.

    [​IMG]

    Performance gap is nearly identical. If anything it grew in Nvidia's favor a bit.

    From the GTX580 review, one of the latest reviews to include GTX2xx and HD4xxx cards:

    [​IMG]

    The GTX285 is much faster than HD4890, 15% faster and even the GTX280 and GTX275 are significantly faster. If anything performance gap is ever so slightly bigger right now, which means Nvidia gained more from drivers. But I will not make that claim, because I know it means really nothing, although I could just make the claim based on the charts.

    Chart from HD4890 release review:

    [​IMG]

    Difference GTX285 vs HD4890 = 15% (hmm where did I see that number?) :rolleyes:

    You get the point.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2010
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  9. AsRock

    AsRock TPU addict

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    depending on how the 6990 turns out which to be honest does not hold much hope going by the 6970.

    And for what a 6970 cost for a little more ( around $40 ) ill pick up a 5970 as the power usage is only 40w more than my 4890.
     
  10. finndrummer

    finndrummer New Member

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    The pricing of 6900 really sucks, AMD call's the 6950 a "class of it's own", i can't consider that when the the difference is just 30 usd vs the faster GTX 570. I don't see a reason for someone to buy the 6950 really. And i can say the same thing for the 6970 which equals the GTX 570 in 90% of games and being 40 usd more expensive. Also the GTX 570 overclocks higher if someone is looking for GTX 580's performance for free.
    The 6900 cards are good but AMD must revise the prices.
     
  11. yogurt_21

    yogurt_21

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    yeah if the 6970 was 299$ and 6950 239/249$ then we'd have a nice setup. it does seem clear that nv pulled one over on amd and they weren't expecting the 5XX series as the 6970 seems to be targeted at the gtx480.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2010
  12. buggalugs

    buggalugs

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    Well going by these benchmarks that suits your needs the 480 went from 12% to 10 % faster.

    The 5870 was even better than i thought, everyone was saying 15/20% when it came out. So the 480 was 10% faster for 40% more money. Great

    I'm sure i can find some benchmarks that shows better improvements(you can find benchmarks to prove just about anything) but i'm not going to bother. It matters little to me becuase i hate nvidia's guts and i wouldnt buy one of there GPUs if it was twice as fast as the AMD one.

    If it wasnt for AMD, Nvidia would be charging a couple of hundred more for their 570/580 like they did in the old days.

    AMD will get my money for a 6970 in the next few weeks.

    Edit: BTW those benchmarks are with the 10.3, if you remember Wizzard had to redo the benchmarks because of big performance gains on AMD going from 10.2-10.3 driver. So there was a bigger gap than that.

    This 570 review shows the 5870 even closer to the 480, http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/GeForce_GTX_570/27.html So with the pre 10.3 driver it went from around 15% to about half that depending on which review you look at.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2010
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  13. buggalugs

    buggalugs

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    Thats how they have always done business. They are sneaky scumbags.

    Amd(and most other companies) is transparent and provide a roadmaps. Nvidia built their 580 and kept quiet waiting for AMD's new cards so they could rain on their parade.

    Those scumbags and their proprietary bullcrap are not gonna get my money.
     
  14. pr0n Inspector

    pr0n Inspector

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    Good. You should pay AMD $399 or maybe even $449 for a 6970 since it's almost as good as a GTX 480 and more efficient. I mean, why not? it's not like nvidia has any other high end cards right?


    WINRAR
     
  15. crazyeyesreaper

    crazyeyesreaper Chief Broken Rig

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    lets not turn this into an nvidia bash thread

    ive got 2x 6970s on the way myself and only went that way because i didnt feel like hacking my board for SLI support that and when in xfire the 6900 cards close the gap and are equal to the 570 and 580 in dual card situations so it my choice easier single card wise id take the 580 but i went dual so the extra $$ wasnt worth the gain
     
  16. Benetanegia

    Benetanegia New Member

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    You have to learn to read normalized results. It's about 12% difference in the second one too. 98/88 = 1.114 = +11.4%

    It's funny because AMD never lowered the prices of HD58xx cards and they were overpriced since the beginning. And now AMD is trying to sell the HD6970 for $50 more than its direct competitor the GTX570. lol both companies price their cards as high as they can and try to get away with it.

    Enjoy your overpriced card.

    doh! 10.3 results are in the same chart I posted. 10.3 was indeed the biggest driver improvement that the HD5870 ever had and the difference was 2%. Whoooohoo! People made a fuzz about how W1zzard had not used 10.3 and how performance was improved a lot and bla bla. W1zzard always said "It makes little difference" and after a lot of moaning from many users, he made the review. All for a stupid 2% that could very well be based on margin of error. Again don't expect more than 5% from 11.1 or you are going to be very dissapointed...
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2010
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  17. Thatguy New Member

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    I ignore AnAndtech, lots of bullshit on that site. They got screwed with the node cancelation at 32nm and had to scramble to rework the chip for 40nm.

    also the vliw4 arch doesn't work like your implying either.

     
  18. Benetanegia

    Benetanegia New Member

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    Oh it does.

    Anandtech is a very realiable source.
     
  19. Thatguy New Member

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    anandtech is a reliable for source for pro-intel and pro-nvidia reviews. always has been. They have always viewed ATI and AMD as second class citizens. Largely becuase 90% of the benchamrk software they used has flawed code.

    but I am not going to get into this today, your simply not worth my time or effort.


    BTW no it doesn't. they widened 2 of the lanes and removed the fith.

    From the techpowerup review



    Its in the AMD investor day slides along with the archtectural breifings.

    they have driver issues and maybe some unintened design consequences. We might see a mid cycle refresh to adress some of those issues. Also looking at power consumption they might not be happy with the chips themselves and they might not be performing up to expectations. a respins might fix those issues if they exist.

    I am pretty much done with your trolling. The cards are priced relative to the performance they deliver.

    I will most likely pass these cards up and wait for the next generation.I just have no need for more performance then my current card delivers.


    Good to see your obvious lack of objectivity.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2010
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  20. Benetanegia

    Benetanegia New Member

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    You are wrong about the architecture* and you are wrong about Anadtech. I suggest you read:

    http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT121410213827

    * The slides don't say everything and the 2+2 thing is a complete misconception. All 4 SPs are identical and 3 out of the 4 together can do complex operations and trascendentals, leaving one free SP capable of performing one simple operation. Some people think that it's 2+2 because of how the slide was represented :roll: when the only thing that it says is which instructions the shaders can perform, on the left column they listed the floating point capabilities (including tracendentals, obviously), on the right the integer ones. People thought that the 2 SPs on the left perform FP and the ones on the right perform int operations. :laugh:

    EDIT: Pff what the hell, it says it all on the slide... :laugh:

    [​IMG]
     
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  21. pantherx12

    pantherx12 New Member

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    Actually they just don't talk about it much, most of the DX11 launch titles were helped along by ATI :]

    They work with devs a lot closer than you think :]


    By the way Ben, AMD didn't change the MRSP that's true, yet it was the cheap cheap launch mrsp ALL this time, it's the shops who were not lowering prices I suspect.

    Could be either or both but it is wrong to sate it was all down to AMD/ATI without at-least pointing to where it says they increased the MRSP after launch.
     
  22. buggalugs

    buggalugs

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    How was it overpriced when i paid $500 Aust dollars not long after release and the 480 was $799 on release. Heck even the 470 was more expensive than a 5870 and the 480 had its whoop de do 10% better performance for 40% more cost.

    It might be different in the US or elsewhere but thats what i had to choose from.

    Personally, i think the 6970 is a better option than the 570 for its features like eyefinity.

    Its already dropped in price where i live(in one day) and only $30 more than the 570. In a few weeks it will be the same price so i wont be buying an overpriced card.

    I would be happy to pay an extra $50 though for AMD's superior image quality and features like eyefinity, but i'm going to wait, my 5870 has been an excellent card for a over a year now so theres no hurry.

    Both the 570/6970 are good cards, cant go wrong with either. They perform about the same and are priced about the same so choose whatever suits your needs. For me its the 6970.
     
  23. Thatguy New Member

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    do you work for nvidia ? if you don't like the cards, don't buy one. seems pretty simple to me. I didn;t sit here and shit on nvidia for the fermi reactor they launch mid last year. If they don;t have what you want, move on.


    If you want to call wizard a lier, feel free. You could call AMD a lier to.but thats not in the white papers I have read.

    But even all that bullshit aside.

    2 things are obvious.

    you a a pronvidia poster which is stupid.

    AMD wins the most important benchmark of this generation

    http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/HIS/Radeon_HD_6970/31.html


     
  24. EastCoasthandle

    EastCoasthandle New Member

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    I was thinking the same thing. It might be another x1800 to x1900 or 2900 to 3800. But that might depend on how soon TSMC can get their act together. If TSMC isn't ready until mid to late 2012 as predicted then I believe we might see a gpu refresh next year.
     
  25. pantherx12

    pantherx12 New Member

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    Don't know about the rest, but sorry to point out but the 570 beats the 6870 for performance per dollar XD

    Have to hand it to NV this time, 570 is a good card.


    but not in the UK, 6970=570 for price so the graph would have them equal here.


    @Eastcoasthandle, refresh? naww whole new architechture* next year, end of q2/start of q3 bulldozer and the 7000 series are due for release.

    *well new fab process + something else new to go along with the 4d shader design ( if older rumours are to be beleived that the 6000 series were going to be a whole new architechture but ended upo only using the usable deisgns that were originally penned in for 32nm.)
     
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