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Possible Precedent: Accused Americans Can Be Forced To Decrypt Their Encrypted Data

Discussion in 'News' started by qubit, Jan 26, 2012.

  1. EnergyFX

    EnergyFX New Member

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    Agreed, SOPA was asking permission to use a bulldozer for tasks that should be done with a scalpel. But I don't really see where hijacking this thread for SOPA discussion is appropriate. This is not a close enough of a situation to justify it.

    So, back on topic... I can see where the 5th amendment sort of applies here and sort of doesn't. Asking her to either provide or enter her password is potentially a self-incriminating action. However... if she is guilty I hope they find a way to make her rot for it.
     
  2. silkstone

    silkstone

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    I have to Disagree with quibit's opinion here.

    They have evidence of what is on the encrypted disk and it is evidence pertinent to the case.
    If the court order came through to unlock to laptop as they wanted to find out what was on the disk i would feel differently.

    I don;t really see how this is different from a court issuing a search warrant for a property if there is evidence of criminal activity. No matter how many different rl analogies are thrown around.

    Anyhow, they would have a hard time proving that she hasn't forgotten the password.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
  3. Horrux

    Horrux

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    Yeah when a woman goes mortgage scam, we gotta stomp on that shit hard.

    When the banks do it, we just give them more money if the scam fails.
     
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  4. yogurt_21

    yogurt_21

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    waste of time

    lol I seriously doubt this will become a precident. "alright lemme just decode that for you" *insert string to wipe all incriminating data while keeping everything else intact*
    "there you go, now search to your hearts delight"

    If the govt/law inforcement can't decrypt it, they won't be able to recover it. That's with or without a Judges order.
     
  5. DannibusX

    DannibusX

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    If it's ruled by the courts as "you have to decrypt the drive, the 5th amendment doesn't apply" it sets precedent.

    It's already set, unless a higher court says otherwise.
     
  6. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

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    "Forgot" the passphrase? XD


    Simply put: If the FBI can't crack it and the owner doesn't want to give the password up, the court shouldn't be able to rule that the defendent must give the password up. It should mean that any evidence contained within is not admissible to the case. They'll have to build their case without it. Why? Because if the defendent touched the computer after it has been confiscated, the defense could argue that the court ordered her to tamper with evidence. This whole situation then turns into a giant oxymoron. Judge needs to back off or this is going to a higher court where it will readily be shot down on numerous accounts (especially that last point I made).
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
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  7. Mr McC

    Mr McC

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    Next time a figure of authority asks you to sign anything, just take a monkey wrench to your hand: that'll learn 'em. ;)

    My lack of technical knowledge prevents me from determining the company's ability to decrypt documents that were decrypted with their software. It appears that this is not possible: I presume that the court would already have issued an order to this effect.
     
  8. DannibusX

    DannibusX

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    I fully support America become China 2.0

    That would mean all of our jobs are coming back.
     
  9. Horrux

    Horrux

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    Yeah more like Soviet States of Amerika
     
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  10. kalstrand

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    Except you are innocent until proven guilty.

    At least thats how it is supposed to be. Much like everything else this is being eroded as well.
     
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  11. m1dg3t

    m1dg3t

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    We have no right's, wake up. They allow us to do what they want us to do. They tell us what they want us to know. We are like mushroom's: Kept in the dark and fed shit. Welcome to the "New World Order"

    In this instance though the judge is 100% in the right to demand decryption of the drive as it more than likely contain's specific information about or used to commit a crime.

    The thread title is misleading, great for inducing conversation, but misleading none the less. A case like this will not lead to a mandatory "requirement" for decryption or lack of encrypting of people's drive's but may set a precedent for future case's involving e-crime (electronic crime)

    "Except you are innocent until proven guilty." That's why they throw you in jail then send you to court lol
     
  12. qubit

    qubit Overclocked quantum bit

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    No, it isn't. Check out the original article on c|net that I based this on: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

    See that title? Now check out the very first paragraph:
     
  13. m1dg3t

    m1dg3t

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    It's still misleading, just because it was basically copy and pasted doesn't make it any more valid. The original poster was looking for the same effect, to incite interest/conversation on his post.

    This case could lead to future instance's where there will be no need to argue the fact's (in a court of law) and you will just have to "pony up" your info.

    Let's not argure semantic's :toast:
     
  14. erocker

    erocker Super Moderator Staff Member

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    You're tellling me how I think? No. When a person scams someone, justice should be served, when a bank scams someone, justice to be served. Where do you get that I sympathize with banks?! Ridiculous. :slap: So your resoning is might as well let everyone scam one another? Please. :rolleyes:
     
  15. Arctucas

    Arctucas

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    Let me see if I understand this;

    The authorities believe there is incriminating evidence on the hard drive, but are unable to obtain it, and may only obtain the alleged and unproven incriminating evidence through the forced and involuntary assistance of the owner of the hard drive?

    How is forcing someone to reveal (by removing encryption) potentially (again, unknown and unproven) evidence that would be used to prosecute and convict that person of a crime not a violation of the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America?

    You see, this is how the Progressive movement works.

    They take away one slice of our liberty at a time, slowly paring away at the whole of our guaranteed rights and freedoms, until there is nothing left. Always in the 'best interest' of society as a whole, of course.

    Remember the anecdote where if you drop a frog into a pot of boiling water it will jump out, but if you put the frog into a pot of room-temperature water and slowly turn up the heat, the frog will not even notice he is being boiled alive?

    I believe that is a fair analogy of what the Progressives have been doing to the Constitution for the last one hundred years or so in America.

    In my opinion, the woman should have refused to acknowledge ownership of the computer. In fact, she should have 'remained silent' completely.
     
  16. Steevo

    Steevo

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    Even if she is guilty she shouldnt have to provide it at all.


    1) 5th amendment.

    2) What if she had written in cypher on a pen a paper instead and the FBI was unable to read it and demanded she give over her cypher key?


    3) Most important **Innocent until proven guilty** which is where the 5th amendment comes from. She may be innocent, and have nude pics of herself on there. She may be innocent and have invented the next best thing to sliced bread. It is up to the court to decide guilt, the prosecute to provide the evidence she is guilty, and she is free to do what she can to prove her innocence.


    In the world they are suggesting, she is already guilty, and they are forcing her to prove her innocence, and it is up to the court to force her to confess to her crime.


    Spanish inquisition, you are either a heretic, or a liar, either way you die, just hurry up and choose one.
     
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  17. qubit

    qubit Overclocked quantum bit

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    No, it's not just sensationalism. Perhaps have a read of the original and you'll see what I mean. If you still disagree, then hey, that's fine and we can just leave it there. :)
     
  18. wahdangun

    wahdangun New Member

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    i think he just being sarcastic.

    very true, my friend.
     
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  19. Horrux

    Horrux

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    I was just being sarcastic at "the law", not you.
     
  20. Sir Alex Ice

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    Her name sounds Romanian, so I suspect she is Romanian, like me. I'm a bit surprised to find out about this, usually we leave the crimes and infractions to our politicians and corrupt government officials.
    Now about this ruling, I doubt it will be held after an appeal as it is highly irregular and unconstitutional. The police and authorities have every right to investigate, seize and search for evidence. However they have absolutely no right in making you in way to provide that evidence - it would be torture plain and simple.
    Holding an accused in contempt because of refusal to offer access to encrypted data is reasons and basis for firing that judge. The obligation of the accused is to only submit the laptop in question to the police, FBI or whatever else agency deems it interesting to have a crack at it.
    Furthermore the innocent till proven guilty principle is still in effect, forcing the accused to offer access to her laptop constitutes a premise to raise the objection that she has already been found guilty.
     
  21. douglatins

    douglatins

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    If i see a number of users supporting sopa, acta or anything else, i jetpack out of tpu.
    She should just say i forgot. Period. They cant prove she didn't.
     
  22. MatTheCat New Member

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    The meaning of civil liberties and the importance of the legal system upholding civil liberties and freedoms at all costs is ironically beyond the mental capacities of the typical spud brains that the 'Land of the Free' spawns, which is probably why the USA stopped being the land of the free quite some time ago and is becoming ever increasingly less free by the day.
     
  23. DanTheBanjoman Señor Moderator

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    I surely hope not, American law should stay in America.
     
  24. digibucc

    digibucc

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    this isn't progressive, this is conservatism. they are the ones who stop at nothing to get what they want. see how that works? my point is just as valid as yours ;)

    other than that I totally agree with you :)
     
  25. Kreij

    Kreij Senior Monkey Moderator Staff Member

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    Here's what I would do if I were the judge.
    Tell the woman that the 5th amendment does stand and she is not required to reveal (or enter) the password. (That would be unconstitutional)
    However, the data is key to the case against her, so she is to remain incarcerated (in jail) while the laptop is sent to the DOJ computer forensics department and they uncrypt it. Unfortunately the DOJ has a huge backlog of work, so it could be awhile. ;)
    After all, they do have just cause to hold her and deny bail if they determine her a flight risk.
     
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