Push for ATI Radeon "console hook up" feature: need interest!

[ShiBDiB]

So you don't want to buy a new monitor, which would likely last you years, to solve the problem. However, you are perfectly happy buying a new card, which won't last more than roughly a year before you need to replace it, and ATi will likely charge a premium for because of the feature?

And your reasoning behind that is that you spent a lot of money on your current monitor, which is crap compared to modern $150 monitors?

I mean come on, your current monitor isn't even true HD capable, so while you could play consoles on it, they would look like complete shit(with the exception of the Wii, which looks like complete shit no matter what you play it on).

http://reviews.cnet.com/lcd-monitors/samsung-syncmaster-940bf/4505-3174_7-31631904.html

his monitor was crap when it was new

 

[cadaveca]

AVIVO HD = dual 1080p (4000 and above) Hardware decoding of Blu-Ray Codecs, HDMI, HDMI Audio, HDMI Lossless Audio (HD 4000 and above)

Yes, but you are both right here..ATI used to call the analogue RageTheatre chips VIVO(or VIdeo-In/Video-Out).

Ati stopped supporting and selling, really, the Rage Theatre chips on the 2600AIW. There is specific software for these chips, but it's no longer hosted and it's for legacy products.

 

[divertiti]

what an absolutely pointless idea, with Xbox 360 and Wii both having VGA output and PS3 and Xbox with HDMI, let's jack the prices of all ATI hardware to put in a "feature" that's redundant.

I love how unbiased this poll is too, 3 out of the 4 options calls it a "good idea" LOL

 

[Mussels]

what an absolutely pointless idea, with Xbox 360 and Wii both having VGA output and PS3 and Xbox with HDMI, let's jack the prices of all ATI hardware to put in a "feature" that's redundant.

I love how unbiased this poll is too, 3 out of the 4 options calls it a "good idea" LOL

wii doesnt have VGA.

and yeah, the poll is rather biased - i didnt vote because there was no "this idea is pointless" option.

 

[RoutedScripter]

Well , you have a better idea ?


I don't need a top card setup , i don't have more than 1280x1024 and that's the lowest in todays benchmarks. So I don't even see the difference between HD cosole and not , Zelda and Metroid Prime look a lot better than half of the Xbox games , HD or not, I've seen Soul Calibor 4 , the GCN Soul calibor 2 was better than that. I don't play sissy games on wii btw.


Laughed about the poll options , don't know , I just made it , didn't actually mean it that way , but oh well.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

I agree that it's pointless.

Consoles, set-top boxes and PCs use practically the same digital video signal.
Just connect the consoles directly to the monitor, through a HDMI-to-DVI connector.

As for the Wii, you can just use this cable.


There's really no reason to have the PC passing-through a video signal to play console games in a monitor.

 

[MN12BIRD]

I'm sure ATi could bring back the AiW series or something with multiple capture ability if they REALLY wanted too but they would be so much more expensive now.

Back then everything was analog and SD resolution. Basically everything was S-Video in. But now you would have to have HDMI and HD capability. HDMI capture isn't cheap. There are technical reasons and royalty reasons too IIRC. So they could at the least put a single HDMI input on the card. But it would add a lot to the price of the hardware. Just look at HDMI capture boxes. They cost way more than almost any video card just for that!

But then oh wait just like you said the Wii doesn't have HDMI output. Only Composite, S-Video, Component and RGB/VGA (I think) witch are of course all analog.

So it would be crazy awesome to have a capture device built into the modern video cards with all inputs. HDMI, Component/RGB and Composite/S-Video. I'm sure ATi/AMD of all people could do it if they really put their minds to it. But now the price is really jumping up. Extra up converter hardware would be needed to handle SD and HD resolutions, Analog to Digital converters. The card would get bigger. Remember AiW cards already had lower clock speeds than the normal versions of the same cards because of the extra hardware on them. The whole card needed more power and had less room for cooling.

The other reason AiW went away right around the time Windows Vista came out was because the straight up didn't work in Vista.

I think it has something to do with the fact an AiW is seen as two devices. One being the video card and the other being the TV Tuner/Capture device. Vista didn't support this "two device" on one slot or IRQ or something. I don't know for sure but I remember that being a problem and ATi saying it wasn't something they could get around with software/driver changes.

Like I said I'm sure AMD could do it. But it would be so expensive. There are some good TV Tuners out there if you look. Most of the current Hauppauge PCi-e cards work fine in Windows 7 and there are a few HDMI capture boxes out there too. But like I said they are expensive.

Now I see this more for recording purposes.

as many have already pointed out if you just want to play the games on the LCD monitor than all of this is a HUGE waste of time, money and energy!

Most monitors have DVI and or HDMI inputs. So either get a simple $5 DVI to HDMI adapter or an HDMI cable and plug your PS3 or 360 right into your monitor. If your monitor has both DVI and HDMI inputs you might be able to switch between the two (PC and game) right on the monitor! Simple, straight forward and no converting required! If DVI and HDMI are there... use it!

as for the wii. Well I'm not sure but getting yourself a VGA box for it might just be the best option. Once again converting analog component from the Wii to Digital for HDMI/DVI isn't going to be cheap. The Wii should have had HDMI output in the first place but hey it should have supported HD resolutions too.

 

[RoutedScripter]

I agree that it's pointless.

Consoles, set-top boxes and PCs use practically the same digital video signal.
Just connect the consoles directly to the monitor, through a HDMI-to-DVI connector.

As for the Wii, you can just use this cable.


There's really no reason to have the PC passing-through a video signal to play console games in a monitor.

You need a Wii Component cable which can go with that , the one that is included is composite only.

Wii component cable 30$
with this component to VGA is 40$

That's 70$ i must spent just for the connection , but wait , here wii cable probably costs 25€ and that another 35€ , that's like even more.

And I can't buy that on the site you provided because I do not live anywhere near there , I do not use credit card buying , because I do not have an international credit card.

I can get the Wii component cable here , but I am not sure about component to VGA.

I'm sure ATi could bring back the AiW series or something with multiple capture ability if they REALLY wanted too but they would be so much more expensive now.

Back then everything was analog and SD resolution. Basically everything was S-Video in. But now you would have to have HDMI and HD capability. HDMI capture isn't cheap. There are technical reasons and royalty reasons too IIRC. So they could at the least put a single HDMI input on the card. But it would add a lot to the price of the hardware. Just look at HDMI capture boxes. They cost way more than almost any video card just for that!

But then oh wait just like you said the Wii doesn't have HDMI output. Only Composite, S-Video, Component and RGB/VGA (I think) witch are of course all analog.

So it would be crazy awesome to have a capture device built into the modern video cards with all inputs. HDMI, Component/RGB and Composite/S-Video. I'm sure ATi/AMD of all people could do it if they really put their minds to it. But now the price is really jumping up. Extra up converter hardware would be needed to handle SD and HD resolutions, Analog to Digital converters. The card would get bigger. Remember AiW cards already had lower clock speeds than the normal versions of the same cards because of the extra hardware on them. The whole card needed more power and had less room for cooling.

The other reason AiW went away right around the time Windows Vista came out was because the straight up didn't work in Vista.

I think it has something to do with the fact an AiW is seen as two devices. One being the video card and the other being the TV Tuner/Capture device. Vista didn't support this "two device" on one slot or IRQ or something. I don't know for sure but I remember that being a problem and ATi saying it wasn't something they could get around with software/driver changes.

Like I said I'm sure AMD could do it. But it would be so expensive. There are some good TV Tuners out there if you look. Most of the current Hauppauge PCi-e cards work fine in Windows 7 and there are a few HDMI capture boxes out there too. But like I said they are expensive.

Now I see this more for recording purposes.

as many have already pointed out if you just want to play the games on the LCD monitor than all of this is a HUGE waste of time, money and energy!

Most monitors have DVI and or HDMI inputs. So either get a simple $5 DVI to HDMI adapter or an HDMI cable and plug your PS3 or 360 right into your monitor. If your monitor has both DVI and HDMI inputs you might be able to switch between the two (PC and game) right on the monitor! Simple, straight forward and no converting required! If DVI and HDMI are there... use it!

as for the wii. Well I'm not sure but getting yourself a VGA box for it might just be the best option. Once again converting analog component from the Wii to Digital for HDMI/DVI isn't going to be cheap. The Wii should have had HDMI output in the first place but hey it should have supported HD resolutions too.

How would i have a TV tuner card with the Radeon simultaneously ?

Well if that's the problem , then they should do HDMI and DVI input's too , what's the big idea , I don't get it , it's just take the signal and then send it to the monitor , it just goes throught a few wires in the GPU , there would not even be a need for a third-party converter if it would be implemented and processed by the GPU Core it self , there's no need for capturing or anything , everything would be inside the GPU and Windows won't know a thing about it , this means ATI would have to come up with the tech on their own , but since their GPUs are and will sell good , there's nothing to loose. It's not like people won't going to buy it because of this.

What you can get but for a premium is that , the third parties are only to have the alternatives , and they are charging for it , that's why all the cables are so expensive , they are charging for it , because it WILL sell practically for masses , it's like food and drink and people can't buy other stuff if it doesn't exist. The tech is ridicolous , one adapter can do what a VGA box can , I've seen such adaptor on amazon , VGA boxes are just selling point which costs so much for , wow , you can record console video, im not paying 50€ for that and then the screen will suck...

 

[newtekie1]

You need a Wii Component cable which can go with that , the one that is included is composite only.

Wii component cable 30$
with this component to VGA is 40$

That's 70$ i must spent just for the connection , but wait , here wii cable probably costs 25€ and that another 35€ , that's like even more.

And I can't buy that on the site you provided because I do not live anywhere near there , I do not use credit card buying , because I do not have an international credit card.

I can get the Wii component cable here , but I am not sure about component to VGA.

They do make a direct VGA cable for the Wii, no need for component cables. It is about $35 in the US, you'll have to find it on your own in your country. But if you can't find that cable, good luck finding one of these specialized cards you want ATi to build.

How would i have a TV tuner card with the Radeon simultaneously ?

Three options:
1.) You get a USB TV Tuner card.
2.) You get a PCI TV Tuner card.
3.) You get a PCI-e TV Tuner card.

Pick the one that matches what slots you have available in your PC.

Well if that's the problem , then they should do HDMI and DVI input's too , what's the big idea , I don't get it , it's just take the signal and then send it to the monitor , it just goes throught a few wires in the GPU , there would not even be a need for a third-party converter if it would be implemented and processed by the GPU Core it self , there's no need for capturing or anything , everything would be inside the GPU and Windows won't know a thing about it , this means ATI would have to come up with the tech on their own , but since their GPUs are and will sell good , there's nothing to loose. It's not like people won't going to buy it because of this.

The problem is that it is not nearly that simple. The card has to have a way to control what is being output to the monitor. Some kind of switching logic either via software or hardware, that changes between the Console input and the GPU output being sent to the monitor. This also would need to be user controllable, so the user could switch between the PC output and the console if they wanted to.

Then, on top of that, there would need to be a built in converter for the Wii to convert the composite signal to something the monitor can accept(since you seem to be opposed to buying anything extra than what comes with the console).

 

[erixx]

I have a 22" AOC LCD-TV for the kitchen and it has every freaking input option (about 12 inputs) you could dream of, and it was so cheap, only 180 € a year ago... I have used it a week for the computer and it's fine, and with the remote you switch the inputs.... you could connect all bloody consoles (i have none) at the same time and just switch haha

 

[MN12BIRD]

I have an ATi Radeon 4870 and an ATi 650 Pro TV Tuner and they work together just fine. In fact I believe it works better with an ATi card because it supports ATi Stream to do some upconverting stuff on the GPU in realtime. I've never really looked into those features. But they certainly work together just fine.

But you already mentioned the problem with playing games on most modern TV Tuners/Capture cards and that is the lag. The stock ATi Catalyst Media Center has about 1 full second of lag before what's coming in actually shows up on the screen. You wouldn't notice this (or have much reason to care) if you are just watching videos but 1 second of lag makes playing a video game impossible. By the time you see the hole and press jump you're already down the hole and dead.

 

[Mussels]

$40 for the wii (i mean really, you own a wii and you dont have component cables already? wtf) to VGA is cheaper than a $200 video card with all the inputs you need.

since the other consoles already have HDMI and VGA outputs, its a moot point - the wii is the ONLY console you need an adaptor for.

 

[JUDOHAWK]

OP I was thinking about this not too long ago. How great it'd be to have an HDMI imput on my GPU so that I could plug in my ps3 and actually play it at the proper res so it's not stretched. Currently I have my ps3 hooked upto my monitor with HDMI, but I have to sit a good 2 feet away from it so the "stretching" doesn't bother me. Not only that but alot of people like to stream ps3 games/record them. An HDMI input would make doing that near effortless.

I understand alot of you don't need an HDMI input, but if it could be included without adding in any extra cost I say why not. I can't see PC only gamers having a use for it, but it'd be very handy for alot of people. Since my monitor is my only HD source to play games on and stuff.

 

[Mussels]

OP I was thinking about this not too long ago. How great it'd be to have an HDMI imput on my GPU so that I could plug in my ps3 and actually play it at the proper res so it's not stretched. Currently I have my ps3 hooked upto my monitor with HDMI, but I have to sit a good 2 feet away from it so the "stretching" doesn't bother me. Not only that but alot of people like to stream ps3 games/record them. An HDMI input would make doing that near effortless.

I understand alot of you don't need an HDMI input, but if it could be included without adding in any extra cost I say why not. I can't see PC only gamers having a use for it, but it'd be very handy for alot of people. Since my monitor is my only HD source to play games on and stuff.

why would it make it any different? the PS3 outputs a set resolution, so unless you had some software and ran it in a window, you'd suffer teh same problem.

what resolution is your monitor anyway? did you buy a 1920x1200 or something?

 

[RoutedScripter]

OP I was thinking about this not too long ago. How great it'd be to have an HDMI imput on my GPU so that I could plug in my ps3 and actually play it at the proper res so it's not stretched. Currently I have my ps3 hooked upto my monitor with HDMI, but I have to sit a good 2 feet away from it so the "stretching" doesn't bother me. Not only that but alot of people like to stream ps3 games/record them. An HDMI input would make doing that near effortless.

I understand alot of you don't need an HDMI input, but if it could be included without adding in any extra cost I say why not. I can't see PC only gamers having a use for it, but it'd be very handy for alot of people. Since my monitor is my only HD source to play games on and stuff.

Exactly , if they want to do this , they can make those user controls and stuff like actually changing the resolution, visal enhancments like with avivo in movies , with the power of the drivers and ofcourse the GPU processing, things a TV-card and the integrated input never could do, well , that's like huge tech but why would I buy a new radeon then all the extra stuff , if the price would okay , 240€ for HD6850 , i would considered buying it , and I am going to switch to a newer radeon anyway.

 

[JUDOHAWK]

Mussels, no it's 1680x1050. It's not bad by any means, infact it accepts 1080p and downscales that. But for like 720p games it's a bit stretched. I would actually use the feature(if it were available) to stream and record more than anything. That's if you could just view what you were playing in a screen on a program.

Like I said, it'd be cool to have. But with ati's eyefinity there isn't much room for extra inputs. Say is there a way to make an HDMI input/output? Is that even possible?

 

[Mussels]

Mussels, no it's 1680x1050. It's not bad by any means, infact it accepts 1080p and downscales that. But for like 720p games it's a bit stretched. I would actually use the feature(if it were available) to stream and record more than anything. That's if you could just view what you were playing in a screen on a program.

Like I said, it'd be cool to have. But with ati's eyefinity there isn't much room for extra inputs. Say is there a way to make an HDMI input/output? Is that even possible?

its 16:10, hence the stretching.

doesnt matter HOW you send the signal to the screen, its gunna stretch - hooking it up directly, via a converter or via some magic input on a video card wont make any difference there... stuff just looks bad if its not native res - especially if its not native aspect ratio.

if you want stretching to look less bad, get a 16:9 screen (same aspect ratio, more likely to be designed for 720p) - if you dont want it at all, get a monitor that supports scaling and add the black bars in.

 

[RoutedScripter]

its 16:10, hence the stretching.

doesnt matter HOW you send the signal to the screen, its gunna stretch - hooking it up directly, via a converter or via some magic input on a video card wont make any difference there... stuff just looks bad if its not native res - especially if its not native aspect ratio.

if you want stretching to look less bad, get a 16:9 screen (same aspect ratio, more likely to be designed for 720p) - if you dont want it at all, get a monitor that supports scaling and add the black bars in.

That's what i'm talking about , a feature and software support via driver , to do that for you , so you don't have to buy extra stuff. How they gonna make it's , I don't know , im not engineer but I know what ideas work in practice , either of so many of you who probably have the cables and tv-card LCDs well , people wanted something like this for long , I'm not only one because i start this thread , so don't blame me.

 

[JUDOHAWK]

Actually I don't notice the stretching that's common with aspect ratio. Like when circles look like ovals and stuff. That doesn't bother me. It's almost like taking the res of 1280x800 and using that with the monitor. Damn close, that's what I mean. It stretches the image to fill the screen.

 

[Mussels]

That's what i'm talking about , a feature and software support via driver , to do that for you , so you don't have to buy extra stuff. How they gonna make it's , I don't know , im not engineer but I know what ideas work in practice , either of so many of you who probably have the cables and tv-card LCDs well , people wanted something like this for long , I'm not only one because i start this thread , so don't blame me.

1. to do WHAT? i've just said stuff that DOESNT work, what are you expecting here??

2. Uhh, you dont wanna buy stuff, but you'd pay a massive amount for a special edition of an already expensive graphics card. just buy a new monitor already...

 

[newtekie1]

1. to do WHAT? i've just said stuff that DOESNT work, what are you expecting here??

2. Uhh, you dont wanna buy stuff, but you'd pay a massive amount for a special edition of an already expensive graphics card. just buy a new monitor already...

He seems to think that anything ATi wants, just magically works, with no enineering, research, developement, or time.

One day an ATi exec woke up and said "I want a video pass through on my cards" and poof it happened. The cards were magically redesigned to handle the switching and pass-though. The drivers were not only rewritten to use this new pass-though, but also written in a way that allowed them to scale the input properly to match the aspect ratio of the monitor, and magically that doesn't require any processing by the GPU, just a few wires ran from one port on the card to another....

 

[JUDOHAWK]

Well most people know it can't be thought up in a day. Here's where I'm coming from.

If it's a feature that someday could be included for almost nothing extra, and didn't interfere with anything else included. I'd say it's a good idea. Just for the sake of having it. That's what I'm getting at I guess.

 

[RoutedScripter]

Okay okay it might not be the best way for me , nor the cheapest , but it's still a great idea for those who will buy new ATI cards , so much for supporting the thread.

 

[Mussels]

Okay okay it might not be the best way for me , nor the cheapest , but it's still a great idea for those who will buy new ATI cards , so much for supporting the thread.

why would it be a good idea? so few people would use it.

Theres no benefit to hooking it up to a PC over hooking it up straight to your screen (via DVI or HDMI)

 

[newtekie1]

Well most people know it can't be thought up in a day. Here's where I'm coming from.

If it's a feature that someday could be included for almost nothing extra, and didn't interfere with anything else included. I'd say it's a good idea. Just for the sake of having it. That's what I'm getting at I guess.

Almost nothing in terms of materials, however you seem to ignore the fact that all that research and developement to get it working is far from free.