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RealTemp General Discussion

Discussion in 'RealTemp' started by unclewebb, Jun 28, 2008.

  1. lyna New Member

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    CPU Temp. Problem

    Thx. unclewebb,

    I have just cleaned dust, and made test again with no external laptop cooler, and with laptop cooler, I took the result below.

    W/O laptop cooler.
    [​IMG]

    with laptop cooler.
    [​IMG]

    What about that result, is it serious to send machine to tech. serv. ?
  2. unclewebb

    unclewebb RealTemp Author

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    Looks like you fixed the problem. Now your laptop can get up to 100% load without triggering any thermal throttling. The Thermal Status area shows OK which confirms it no longer throttles.

    If you want to improve those temps some more then remove the heatsink and redo the thermal paste. It's not critical to do this now that your laptop is not overheating but if you're bored, go for it. There's always room for improvement.

    RealTemp 3.67
    http://www.mediafire.com/?n99nq4kn95u6i6a

    I wrote another free program that is more designed for laptop owners that you can download if you're interested.

    ThrottleStop 3.00
    http://www.techinferno.com/downloads/?did=1

    It lets you play around with your core voltage and some other settings so you might be able to improve your core temperature further by using it. Don't be scared off by the warning message when you first start it. That was more for owners with Extreme CPUs with adjustable multipliers. When you provide an overclocking option, some enthusiasts get a little too enthusiastic. :D
    jaicigy and lyna say thanks.
  3. nono2005 New Member

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    Config Realtemp

    Hi
    I've just finish the Realtemp Sensor test.
    Can you explain how to set The TJmax ?

    [​IMG]
  4. unclewebb

    unclewebb RealTemp Author

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    RealTemp GT 3.64
    http://www.mediafire.com/?jibd769x6z7n0c8


    nono2005: I'd need a super magnifying glass to see the image you posted. :)
    At ImageShack you need to copy the entire link when posting a thumb nail so I can click on it and see the original picture.

    If you only have 4 cores then you don't need to run RealTemp GT. The regular RealTemp.exe is designed for the 4 core CPUs. Post another pic and I'll have a look at it.
    95Viper says thanks.
  5. nono2005 New Member

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    re:Config Realtemp

    hi
    Thank you for these tips has uncleweb.
    re:( I've just finish the Realtemp Sensor test.
    Can you explain how to set The TJmax ?
    [​IMG]
  6. unclewebb

    unclewebb RealTemp Author

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    Intel's newer Core i mobile sensors are rated to be accurate to +/- 5C. The sensors on a 45nm Core 2 Quad like you have are not even close to that accurate so I gave up long ago trying to come up with some sort of perfect calibration.

    You can add 2 to Core 3 and set TJMax for that one to 102C but beyond that I wouldn't bother trying to get fancy with adjustments to Idle Calibration factors. You're far better off realizing that these sensors were never designed for 100% accurate core temperature reporting from idle to TJMax and Intel never released enough information or a method to try and calibrate them so I gave up.

    The good news is that the sensors on your particular CPU are excellent for a 45nm Core 2 Quad. Many of these had issues at lower temperatures where the sensor would become stuck but none of your sensors in the normal temperature range have this problem. The next problem was that TJMax could vary significantly by 10C from core to core but your numbers show that TJMax is consistent within +/- 2C and it might even be better than that.

    Enjoy your Quad and don't get hung up on the core temperatures because it's very difficult to try and prove what core is accurate. There is error in all of these sensors and your CPU has a lot less error than most so be happy. As long as your CPU is stable and not reaching the thermal throttling point at 100C, there's no reason to give your core temperatures a second thought. :)

    RealTemp 3.67 is inside the above download if you would like to upgrade.
  7. Remaha

    Remaha New Member

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    I have been getting a lot of crashes on my PC recently. They mostly happen when I'm not actually doing anything. Naturally, I blamed Norton 360 at first as that tends to kick in at idle (or when I'm idle).

    Anyway, the problem still persisted, so I started looking at the possibility of overheating memory and processors.

    The first time I tried the RealTemp sensor test I got some pretty strange results (See first screenshot). I am assuming that this is because my processor went over the T max of 90C.

    [​IMG]

    I had a look at my BIOS and noticed that Speedstep and CIE were both disabled. After enabling them, it looks like my processor is just managing to stay below the Tmax of 90C. However, it continues to heat up until the CPU load gets down to about 30%.

    [​IMG]

    I'm guessing that with figures like this (with no overclocking) I need to consider buying a new cooling system.
  8. unclewebb

    unclewebb RealTemp Author

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    Your CPU is overheating and thermal throttling. That's why you are getting some strange numbers during the sensor test. These sensors wrap around when your core temperatures go beyond TJMax.

    Idle temperatures of 76C are a good sign that your CPU heatsink is not making firm contact with your CPU. If you are using the original Intel OEM cooler that came with your CPU then there is a very good chance that 1 of the 4 push pins that secures it to the motherboard is not fully seated. I'm not a big fan of these push pins because it can be difficult to tell sometimes if they are fully seated. When installing a heatsink with push pins, I like installing the heatsink with the motherboard outside of the case so I can flip the motherboard over and be 100% sure that the push pin went through and is seated.

    The best thing to do would be to buy some new thermal paste, remove your old heatsink, make sure the fan still works, clean it up and reinstall it with some new thermal paste. Push the push pins in diagonally, two at a time. If you push them in one at a time you can end up with 3 of them in and you will have a difficult time getting the fourth pin to seat. I had a Gigabyte motherboard once that put up quite the fight.

    Some of the early E6600 CPUs put out a lot of heat. Once you have fixed the heatsink problem, if there are any options in your bios, you can try lowering the core voltage which can also help lower the amount of heat these CPUs create.
  9. Remaha

    Remaha New Member

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    Many thanks for your help.

    At least I know what the problem is now.

    I've never had much joy fixing heatsinks and fans on to previous PCs. :banghead:
  10. Remaha

    Remaha New Member

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    Remembering that my CPU was running at up to 98C earlier today, this is what's happening now:

    [​IMG]

    Happy (but slightly embarrassed) to say that all it needed was very good clean. There was acres of dust between the fins of the heatsink. I couldn't see it until I took my PC downstairs to a room with natural light.

    Hopefully that will put an end to any more crashes. :)

    Thanks once again for your help.
  11. unclewebb

    unclewebb RealTemp Author

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    That's a night and day difference and is running a lot cooler than the E6600 I tested. If you have a bios that lets you, it would be easy to overclock that CPU by 25% to 30% now without breaking a sweat. You've proven that it doesn't mind running at high temperatures. :)

    These early Core 2 processors were bullet proof.
  12. ISOpain New Member

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    RealTemp Not Updating Temperatures

    I've got a dual core 64-bit Intel T4400 machine running Win7 64-bit.
    (I think that's synonymous with Core 2 Duo.)

    I was looking around for a CPU temperature monitor and RealTemp looks ideal.
    But.
    It never seems to update the temperature of either core after the first time it's run.
    Sometimes it appears to report a correct temperature for at least one core the first time it runs after a cold boot.

    I'm including a screenshot of the Cool Down Test, showing constant temperature.
    (In the background you can see the CPU usage drop from 100% to 0%, as indicated by the Win7 Task Manager. There is no stepping down as indicated by the left column of the Cool Down Test dialog, there's just a cliff-dive in processor usage. The "noise" in CPU load was due to me, switching tasks and moving windows around to get the screenshot.)

    Just for fun, I booted a Linux LiveCD and ran a little bash script calling Debian's acpi utility to generate temperature reports. Similar to the RealTemp cooldown test, I ran a processor-intensive application for several minutes, then killed it, and let "acpi -t" report the temperature as the CPU cooled down.

    What you can see is successful updating of the CPU temperature as it cools down.
    (There's a pause of 2 seconds between each pair of output lines.)

    So: CPU temperature reporting works.
    Why doesn't it update appropriately in RealTemp?

    (You'll notice the two cores always report the same temperature. I'll leave the question of "Do I have two functional, independent temperature sensors?" until next time...)

    Any advice on getting RealTemp to update in real time?

    Thanks,
    ISO

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 26, 2011
  13. unclewebb

    unclewebb RealTemp Author

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    The 45nm core temperature sensors that Intel uses were never designed to be accurate temperature monitoring devices. Some of these sensors get stuck like you are seeing but I have to admit that your sensors are far worse than average. These sensors were only designed for thermal throttling and thermal shut down purposes at 100C and approximately 125C. If your CPU ever gets hot enough then it is very likely that your core temperature sensors will start functioning more or less correctly. They still are far from 100% accurate even when they are not stuck.

    There is a separate temperature sensor located in the center of your CPU. RealTemp is only designed to read the core temperature sensors and ignores this other sensor. You can use a program like Speed Fan or AIDA64. These can read that other sensor. I've never bothered with it because thermal throttling is only based on what the core sensors are reporting. When your core sensors are defective like yours are, data from this other sensor is better than nothing but still fairly meaningless.

    Not too important but here's what my E6600 could run on stock voltage.

    [​IMG]

    It put out too much heat when pressed beyond 3200 MHz.
    ISOpain says thanks.
  14. Remaha

    Remaha New Member

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    Well, I'm guessing it kept giving up the ghost somewhere over 100C.

    I might give it a try just to see what it can do.
  15. unclewebb

    unclewebb RealTemp Author

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    Just adjust the memory divider so your memory continues to run within spec and it should be easy to crank your CPU up a notch or two.
  16. Zal New Member

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    Hi there,

    I've been using RealTemp for a long time now and much prefer it to similar apps such as hardwareinfo32, however version 3.6 and 3.67 do not seem to support my new hardware :(

    I was wondering if you have any plans to update it to allow it to monitor temperatures for newer GPU's such as a the 580 GTX, 485M GTX and ATI HD 6970M

    Thanks againf or the great app :p

    -Zal
  17. unclewebb

    unclewebb RealTemp Author

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    When you go into the RealTemp Settings window and click on the Nvidia or ATI box, does anything happen? RealTemp gets its GPU temperature info directly from the driver. If something has changed in the driver then there's probably not much I'll be able to do about that.

    Nvidia support has been very consistent for quite a few GPU generations as far as I know. ATI on the desktop side isn't too bad but they seemed to have blocked simple temperature monitoring on some of their mobile GPUs. Let me know what you find out when you click on those boxes.
  18. Zal New Member

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    Hi Unclewebb,

    edited, removed previous msg, sorry i have been completely blind, i didn't see those boxes :(

    It works perfectly now, thank you very much :D
  19. unclewebb

    unclewebb RealTemp Author

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    No problems. I'm just happy to hear RealTemp GPU monitoring still works. :)
  20. BilBg New Member

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    TJ Max value wrong?:

    One "Young and Naive" (No, Not Queen Amidala ;) ) participant of a Bulgarian forum
    posted info that let me believe the TJ Max value wrongly determined for his CPU:

    Intel Core 2 Duo T5800 (Merom) 2.00GHz [M0]
    Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T5800 @ 2.00GHz
    Technology 65nm x64 Family 6 Model 15 (0F) Stepping 13 Revision A3


    [​IMG]


    Picture shows that Real Temp thinks that TJ Max = 100°C (66+34=100)


    Intel site shows:
    http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=35581

    TJUNCTION 85°C


    The (17 years old) owner posted info:
    Core Temp shows: Tj.Max = 85°C (and Temperature 51°C)


    SIV (System Information Viewer) (shows the same Core Temperature as Core Temp)
    http://www.rh-software.com/


    SIV32X - System Information Viewer V4.20 ADMIN-PC::Admin

    Windows 7 x32 Ultimate (Single User) V6.01 Build 7601 Service Pack 1 ASUS M51Vr ADMIN-PC::Admin English (0409) United States (1)
    Workgroup WORKGROUP 00 15:41:34 2011-05-27 08:33:13 [798MHz Single DDR2 RAM] PCI-Express x16 (x16) FSB:DRAM 1:2 MCH 0°C

    Resource Usage 50% [1] Current Maximum DDR2 RAM CAS Latency 6
    System Physical Memory 1.01GB 301.65MB 2.00GB RAS to CAS Delay (tRCD) 6
    System Paging File 1.51GB 2.49GB 4.00GB RAS Precharge (tRP) 6
    System File Cache 729.88MB 1.28GB 890.26MB Cycle Time (tRAS) 18
    Row Cycle Time (tRC) 24
    Cores 2 Chips 1 HDDs |Y| 31°C |U| DIMMs |Y| 2GB

    Sensor ACPI Thermal Zone |Y| ACPI 48°C

    |G| Processor FSB 61% CPU Utilisation Volts Temp Power APIC Socket P BGA-479 Intel Core 2 Duo T5800 (Merom) 2.00GHz [M0]
    CPU-0 1.60GHz x8 200MHz U 49% K 12% I 1% 1.00 50°C 25.00 0.0.0 Technology 65nm x64 Family 6 Model 15 (0F) Stepping 13 Revision A3
    CPU-1 1.60GHz x8 200MHz U 54% K 8% 1.00 50°C 25.00 0.1.0 CPUs 2 Cores 2 Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T5800 @ 2.00GHz
    Memory GPU 1.0% GPU Utilisation L1 Code Cache 8-way 64-byte 32KB
    GPU-0 400MHz P0 110MHz Activity 1% 0.95 L1 Data Cache 8-way 64-byte 32KB [3/3]
    L2 Unified Cache (2) 8-way 64-byte 2MB [14]
    [Cache-0 Latency] [MMX SSSE3 XD]


    (this CPU is in ASUS laptop)


    P.S.

    According to:
    http://www.alcpu.com/CoreTemp/howitworks.html
    "Intel defines a certain Tjunction temperature for the processor. This value is usually in the range between 85°C and 105°C.
    In the later generation of processors, starting with Nehalem, the exact Tjunction Max value is available for software to read in an MSR (short for Model Specific Register).
    A different MSR contains the temperature data. The data is represented as a Delta in °C between current temperature and Tjunction."

    Do you (Real Temp) read (if possible) Tjunction Max value from an MSR ?


    (The author of TThrottle:
    http://www.efmer.eu/boinc/download.html

    implemented this recently so I know it is possible:
    "3.50 April 2011
    New: Read the TJunction (Max) temperature directly from the CPU when possible.

    4.10 May 2011
    Fixed: (Intel) A read to the CPU to determine the TJunction (Max) temperature, caused the driver to crash on older cpu's.
    Now only Family 0x6, Model: 0x1A, 0x1E, 0x1F, 0x25, 0x2C, 0x2E, 0x2A, 0x2D perform a read.
    If you know any others that are missing, please let me know.
    "

    The (long) discussion with me:
    http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=63650&nowrap=true#1094579

    And: "A new version of TThrottle now reads the TJunction from the CPU":
    http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=63650&nowrap=true#1095346
    )
  21. unclewebb

    unclewebb RealTemp Author

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    Intel has never publicly released any information about the method they use to set TJMax or how much error is in that number. Some information they have released is not correct, inconsistent or misleading. At one of their Intel Developer Forums they released a new term called TJ Target and told users that actual TJMax may be equal to this target but might also be higher. They weren't quite sure.

    TJ Target can only be read from the Core i CPUs. That information can not be read from the earlier Core 2 CPUs because it doesn't exist.

    The 85C spec, if it is accurate, is the minimum temperature that the PROCHOT signal can go active. Intel admits that actual TJMax may be higher and it is anyone's guess what that really means or how much higher. Actual TJMax can vary from core to core on the same CPU. Without seeing some test data of actual CPUs, Intel's specs are meaningless. I gave up trying to get the truth out of Intel. That's why RealTemp is adjustable.

    If you believe the published TJunction spec is exactly equal to TJMax then you can easily adjust RealTemp and set TJMax to 85C. Without seeing some actual test data or having a T5800 to test, I have no idea what the truth is.
  22. BilBg New Member

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    This boy isn't experienced to do the test.

    But what info do you need to confirm (approximately) the TJMax value?
    Motherboard sensor to measure the CPUcase temperature?

    Open Hardware Monitor don't show any Motherboard sensor on this laptop.

    Can the ACPI info shown by SIV be used:
    Sensor ACPI Thermal Zone |Y| ACPI 48°C
    And Core temps:
    CPU-0 1.60GHz x8 200MHz U 49% K 12% I 1% 1.00 50°C
    CPU-1 1.60GHz x8 200MHz U 54% K 8% 1.00 50°C
  23. burebista

    burebista

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    Man I've always said that you should try to forget temps reading and rely only on distance to TJMax (whatever TJMax value is) because this is the only parameter which triggers thermal throttle/shutdown.
    It will be a little confusing in the start because instead lower temps you should aim for higher distance to TJmax but you'll get used to.
  24. unclewebb

    unclewebb RealTemp Author

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    There's no 100% accurate way to try and calibrate a mobile CPU. Some laptops have very poor cooling solutions or the heatsink is full of dust so they can run very hot.

    HWiNFO32 might show a temperature for the main CPU sensor. At idle, that is usually close to the core temperature so you can compare to that.

    Another thing you can do is let the laptop sit overnight in Stand By mode. When you resume the next morning, the actual core temperature is usually 0C to 5C higher than the room temperature. You can have RealTemp running with the Logging option checked before you go into Stand By so when you resume you will have some immediate data before the CPU has a chance to warm up very much.

    I like burebista's solution best. Just watch Distance to TJMax. That is the only thing truly known about these CPUs. When that number counts down to zero, the CPU will start to thermal throttle and slow down. Avoid that and these CPUs will run at full speed just fine. There's no need to be too concerned about the core temperature of a mobile CPU unless it is so hot that it is throttling. Most older laptops can benefit from a thorough cleaning as well as redoing the thermal paste between the CPU and the heatsink.
  25. BilBg New Member

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    I already explained that to the owner a few days ago (to watch for "Distance to TJMax" and what it means - it's good that RealTemp shows this raw value which other utilities hide).
    And how manually change the TJMax to 85 (which he did) to not be confused by the difference of the shown temperature in different programs.

    By "main CPU sensor" do you mean some other (not known to me) sensor inside the CPU
    or you simply mean the motherboard sensor under the CPU (read by sensor chip on motherboard)?

    Last edited: Jun 3, 2011

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