So where is this DX10 patch for XP

[Deleted member 24505]

i have used vista now for 2 o 3 weeks and i dont see many bugs,my system has beenas stable as it was on xp.all the games i have tried work fine too.

what exactly are the bugs in vista?

 

[Wile E]

because vista is a beta os thats being sold as finnished, it was rushed out, it had ALOT of fetures removed to "improve" drm, and dx10 isnt what most people think it is, its an attempt by ms to kill gaming outside windows, and dosnt really bring anything new to the table but requiering sm4.

i dont like nvidia because they went from being the best gfx company PERIOD in the gf4 days to just putting out crap(fx line) then putting out so/so drivers, then so/so drivers and hardware(7 seirse) and now 8800 and its pathetic driver support, eventulay it may get better, but at this rate i dont see it.
ms put out the 7950gx2, and quadsli then pretty much dumped it once they sold a bunch of units to smuchs who thought they would acctualy support it.(no dirver fixes for quadsli or 7950gx2 buggs)

i hate software thats rushed out just to gain sales and give the company a new product to pimp, specly when its got as many buggs as vista has. after sp1 maby vista will be better, but for now i cant reccomend it to anybody, my mother got a free disk from gateway to upgrade her new laptop, she cant use vista because her NEW 500$ billing software cant run on vista thanks to flaws ms "will fix soon with a patch" the company reccomended she not use vista till sp1.......

ogl is better by default, its just getting game devs to use/support it, some do, Id for one, tho they are buttbuddys with nvidia they have for years been a huge supporter of OpenGL, the makers of the riddick game support ogl, look at ogl1.5 in doom3 vs dx9 in other games, sure doom3 is dark and gloomy but the point is still made, the quility and fx avalable even under a very old version of opengl are stunning compared to what people could get from dx, and ogl2 has brought things closer to dx for programing, made it easyer.

i email dev companys and state my feeling that ogl support would be a good move as it would also allow far easyerports to mac and *nix, sure its a small marketcompared to windows, but its a market who will enlarge buy games if they can run native under their os.(% wise more linux users buy software/games that support their os then windows users(warez baby) think its because alot of linux users know how much effort gos into making good games/apps and that if they dont support the companys that support their os they wont get more games for their os)

On the nVidia front, I agree with you. All I was trying to say was calling somebody a fanboy, then turning around and acting like a fanboy, probably wasn't the best of ideas. lol

As far as Microsoft releasing buggy software as a final, name one company that doesn't. The amount of possible hardware and software configurations is just too staggering for any company to develop perfect software for the home pc market. I do however agree with your statement about DRM and missing features. I want my WinFS, dammit! lol

I'm also not arguing that ogl isn't better, or that it shouldn't be the default. It probably should be, but the fact remains that it isn't the standard for pc gaming. DX is, and as such, we should accept any improvements to it with open arms.

I'm just saying, you need to relax a little man. lol

 

[AshenSugar]

all software has buggs, i dont mean to say it dosnt, but ms is REALLY bad about putting out os's early, xp then vista, xp couldnt work as a server because of its flaws, hence server 2003 the finnished version of xp, vista will have server 2008 the finnished version of vista......see what im saying?

ms rushes things out to flood the market, 2k when it came out had less issues in my exp then vista, sure some ppl had problems but if you had ANY exp with windows nt and read up on 2k b4 you jumped on it you could easly get around the problems some/most programs had with it(like some that wouldnt install, just go to the windows cd and install the app compat tool, bam fixed)

and corel dosnt rush software out in my exp, adobe, slysoft, vso(blindwrite suit), intervideo,nero(ok 7 had some issues with mp3 to cd burning, but that was a SIMPLE fix, just had to swap out a bugged mp3pro.dll with a good one, took seconds, and was a small oversite), webroot,frisk, Illustrate(dbpoweramp),Orion Studios,Smart Projects(isobuster),Opera.......
do i need to continue?

ms and other companys rush things out, then eather have to patch the crap out of them or patch them a few times and run away(game makers like VUG and ATARI run away)

ms could have for once put out an os in a gold state, well once since the nt4/2k day, not flawless, but with as few bugs as possable not rushed out, if they find problems, they fix them, if they find somethings not working out, replace it/remove it.

ms server products are GREAT, if they went back to what they did with nt3/4/5(2k) where they dont put the desktop/workstation os out till they got the server side ready as well then things would be better because the desktop would be as finnished and polished as the server im pretty sure APK when he stops in will agree here as he to uses 2003 server as his main os

 

[Wile E]

and corel dosnt rush software out in my exp, adobe, slysoft, vso(blindwrite suit), intervideo,nero(ok 7 had some issues with mp3 to cd burning, but that was a SIMPLE fix, just had to swap out a bugged mp3pro.dll with a good one, took seconds, and was a small oversite), webroot,frisk, Illustrate(dbpoweramp),Orion Studios,Smart Projects(isobuster),Opera.......
do i need to continue?

I agree that those companies are in fact better at releasing software in a more stable state (with the exception of Nero 7, myself and all my friends and family that own it, have had many issues with it, so much so that I switched to Roxio), but they are still bugged.

I see where you're coming from now, tho. The home vs. server comparo kinda puts it perspective. But I will say that I don't think Vista is as bugged as you think it is. I've yet to experience a single crash, apt or os, in a month of use. Of course, my personal machine is kind of a limited sample set. lol

 

[AshenSugar]

buggs dont just involve crashes, but software that should work not working, wga buggs, all that crap, read up on the news, WGA is bugged as hell on vista STILL..

and what problems did you have with nero7?

the only problems i have had on 50+ installs i setup where when i forgot to remove older nero first, and that is my own damn fault.
or when roxio was installed to, it dosnt play nice with other burning apps :/

and roxio......ewww........see i have had alot of problems with their software, i miss the old WinOnCd (3.x) b4 adaptech/roxio got ahold of it :/

 

[BXtreme]

off-topic: ok i get the hold of the 2k3 rocks! but then y don't ppl use it all-over ??
They don't know about it ? They DON'T use server os ? OR they want the flashy operating systems ??

 

[AshenSugar]

because they for the most part dont know, and its expencive to buy it(because its a server) you can get a trial of 2003 r2 free from ms if you want, just google for "windows 2003 trial" or u can get it.....other ways......

2003 installs in "pro" mode effectivly, ask randomperson he just set it up on a laptop and is gonna set it up on his main system this weekend hes quite impressed at the speed over xp, from neerly 10min full useable desktop boot to 2seconds from the post screen to windows useable desktop even with software installed

i game, its what i do other then post whore(i keep being called one so i might as well say i am one) and as a gamer i wouldnt use 2003 unless it kicked arse for gaming

 

[BXtreme]

some questions about 2k3 -
1. whats the price of it ?
2. also are drivers of MOST hardware present for it ?
3. some sites for gaming performance in 2k3 please
4. What is the next version of it ?

 

[AshenSugar]

no official reviews of 2003 for gaming have been done, its a server os.

check sites where you can buy software for local prices for your area/county.

2003 uses the same drivers as 2k and xp, same core codebase just more refined and polished.

the next version of server will be server 2008 based on vista, like with 2003 im sure it will be FAR more polished then vista due to the time they take coding it to make it A ROCK SOLID PERFORMER.

 

[BXtreme]

name like windows longhorn server ? not bad imo.
BUT, on newegg there are so many versions, which one is better for gamers (un-officially), and for desktop use ?

 

[AshenSugar]

acctualy they would all be the same for perf, you dont want small buisness it requieres you run it as a domain controler.

the others are all the same for home users.

my advice is if you can find a licence for web edition get that, its cheapist you can find and has the least extra stuff included

my buddy got 12 licences for 166$ each on ebay (thanks to froogle search) thats for webedition, he setup all the systems he owns on it, laptops, old systems(233mmx systems and up) as well as his pairnts systems because he was tired of dealing with xp problems(sp2 was driving him mad with wireless support due to sp2 breaking drivers)

web is cheapist, standred is 2nd cheapist, ent is most pricy you can find for normal use(sbs is only for small buisnesses)

but you have years to go for support its got till like 2012 or something b4 its EOL last i checked.

yes its called server longhorn for the next version but the server version avalable now is just vista with some server apps added, its not any more polished then vista yet, thats why its gonna take a year b4 it comes out

 

[BXtreme]

ok, i'll report back as soon as i get hold of this, i.e in another thread

 

[Alec§taar]

NOTES ON CHANGES IN NT-BASED OS, for everyone's reference

vista is NOT totaly rewriten from the ground up, this only shows how missinformed you are, vista is based on server 2003 codebase, please dont post FUD, infact i will call APK over to back me on this, since i know you dont respect or belive me.

AshenSugar's right about this: VISTA is written off of the basecode of Windows Server 2003 - he is correct on that account. I wouldn't call VISTA a TOTAL rewrite anymore than I would call XP a TOTAL rewrite of 2000!

However, changes DO & have been made in all of them between versions. Some are fairly 'radical'... I would call the VISTA ones pretty radical in some capacities too though.

The most radical ones so for imo, w/ examples of WHY I say it (some, not all) have been the transitions between:

• NT 3.5x-> NT4 (move of GUI subsystem from usermode/Ring 3/RPL 3 to kernel mode/Ring 0/RPL 0, & also @ the desktop level, moving from Program Manager (like Windows 3.x desktop) to the "workplace like shell" (Os/2 like) desktops we use now, the intro. of DirectX (3.0, iirc) to a Windows NT-based OS! "the start of great things to come", lol!)

• NT 4 -> 2000 (network stack change of primary protocol carrier NetBIOS/LanManager -> Tcp/IP, the introduction of "Active Directory" (AD), in response to Novell Directory Services (NDS) - displacing the NT domain model for instance, DirectX 3.0 -> 5.0, iirc as well (as to what came w/ the OS, & it could iirc, be upgraded to DirectX 6, possibly more/later ones, but the "memory fades here" on this account)))

NOTE: Fairly BIG change in the desktop came here too, w/ the introduction of IE 4.0, & it's largely taking the place of the older EXPLORER.EXE shell... more web integration into the desktop (not good imo, but here we are today - mind you, this happened in NT4, NOT during the transition to 2000 from NT 4)

• 2000 -> XP (changes mainly for gaming, better compatibility, but not as big as those above imo)

• XP -> Windows Server 2003 (Fairly big, changes made based on corrections (many) from Windows Automatic Error Reporting - now THIS, has been called a total rewrite, but I have trouble w/ that, because for instance, the IP stack? Still based on BSD model it has had since, iirc, 2000 - some changes happened there too though, as far as networking is concerned)

• Windows Server 2003 -> VISTA (many changes as you all know, mainly in the display subsystem moving to DirectX from older style GDI, USB into usermode/RPL3/Ring 3 iirc, & of course, & far more you are all aware of, & some you may not be, like Address Space Randomization)

Correct where I am off up there fellas, or add detail... thanks! Calling any of these a TOTAL rewrite? Well... I dunno about that - they have had some big changes, but much of the code just came from its predecessors really, improving steadily upon each one successively.

NOTE on EDIT for your reference again upon 'retrospection': I even THINK iirc, NTFS changed models between NT -> 2000, going from NTFS4 to NTFS5, with BASIC/DYNAMIC disk support to, but not "110% sure", but fairly certain!

(One heck of a good foundation for them to start from for VISTA, using Windows Server 2003 as its foundation base code, imo @ least - Best Windows NT-based OS I have seen to date, & it only makes sense: All those years of sending errmsg/abend info. to Microsoft from Automatic Error Reporting paid off.)

Windows Server 2003, on the other hand, is "almost a rewrite" from what I understand, of the foundation code from 2000/XP (more the latter, because XP built off of 2000, whereas 2000 was a 'radical near rewrite' of NT (big changes, @ the IP stack level (moving from NetBIOS/Lanmanager as the primary network protocol, to Tcp/IP taking its place, for example, AD, & more))...

Still, it was built up off the foundations of XP before it & probably had a HUGE chunk of it changed via Windows Error Reporting DB's of the MOST frequently seen errors & it is, far more secure outta the box... even its IE6 version, but you CAN duplicate this largely on 2000/XP etc. manually.

I don't personally call that a TOTAL REWRITE though, though it is a close one here, correcting for problems in XP (security ones, & others).

Have there been BIG changes, for the better in VISTA? Yes... one being the display API for the desktop shell, being DirectX... but many other COOL things you do NOT see, many for security like Address Space Randomization.

If you look in the VISTA tech support thread, even @ the IP stack level, and FOR THE BETTER... I put a zip'd document there for folks using VISTA that can show this step for step as to what is different, & what you CAN change in it to tune it (though it is largely 'auto-tuning', & moreso than XP/2000/Server 2003 were even, imo), but much of it has autotunes like sliding Send/Receive Windows (as did Server 2003 & XP iirc).

* Anyhow... there ya are.

APK

P.S.=> Stop arguing fellas... it's just computers. I know, sometimes, I am NOT one to talk... but think about it. You're ALL 'into' this stuff, & it's easy to be 'passionate' about it, because you like it! Ahhh, what's the use... lol! apk

 

[Alec§taar]

no official reviews of 2003 for gaming have been done, its a server os.

There are those, & many of them (BUT, not for gaming solely, but imo? Makes a HELL of a gaming platform too)...

Here are just SOME:

Paul Thurrott: Windows Server 2003 Review (Part One)
http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winnetserver_rc1.asp

ActiveWin Review of Windows Server 2003:
http://www.activewin.com/reviews/software/operating-sys/win2003serv/index.shtml

Microsoft - Windows Server 2003 review
http://www.itreviews.co.uk/software/s201.htm

Microsoft Windows 2003 Server Standard Edition; XP Without the Frills
http://www10.epinions.com/content_137112424068

Windows Server 2003 Uptake Strong: Netcraft
http://thewhir.com/marketwatch/net050603.cfm



* On GOOGLE? Just search this, verbatim:

"Windows Server 2003" and "review"

You'll see what I mean... & find I am ONLY SCRATCHING THE SURFACE on this note!

I'd STRONGLY wager, that if you searched:

"Windows Server 2003" and "gaming"

There on GOOGLE? You'd find SOME material on this account (gaming on Windows Server 2003 - heck, I do it, it's JUST AS DOABLE AS XP, maybe better!)

Windows Server 2003 generally was/is reviewed well, most times IF not all... heck, even the Unix nuts over @ slashdot don't "rib on" this model of Windows... which believe me, IS MEGA RARE.

APK

P.S.=> Some are while it was in BETA, other as it in final form, etc.: Enjoy, good reads!

(... &, if anything will 'arm you' to correct what I wrote above? It will be those & others... please, do so, I won't take it bad if you do!)

Why do I say that? Heck, via correction?? Hey - I'll ONLY GET STRONGER, if you do, & so will you all! Keep that in mind...

Think I haven't had my viewpoints/opinions/know-how changed, & here? Yes, I have... here is one such instance, came yesterday, from research AshenSugar challenged me to do:

NOD32 vs. Norton/Symantec AntiVirus memory residency resource consumption:

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=26400

... & I was wrong (on THIS part, memory size, but NOT others), & admit it there, about how much NOD32 eats in RAM, vs. NAV corp. edition client, but w/ SOME reservations (mainly, the most important part of antivirus progs imo - detection abilities) &, some INTERESTING findings (like running NAV & NOD32 side-by-side in memory concurrently, & HAVING NO PROBLEMS NOW FOR 24 hrs. straight so far, good news & in that thread, you'll see WHY I say that (detection abilities of both, one shows strengths over the other, & vice-a-versa, w/ diff. types of virus'))... apk

 

[Mediocre]

... programing dirrectly ... diffrent...dirrect..maby you should try acctualy talking to some people who acctualy program... injoy.. geomotery on gpu ... dirrect gpu... fraimrate ...injoy...advantege .. probbly.....never ending cycle of ainal pain!!!!

AHHH how can anyone's spelling be sooo freakin bad. I would absolutely love to learn about this topic and take sides, but I just don't have the patients to get through all the spelling errors. Not to mention the condescending tone.

 

[Alec§taar]

ASHEN SUGAR HAS A VALID EXCUSE FOR HIS SPELLING imo

AHHH how can anyone's spelling be sooo freakin bad.

He has dyslexia man... for real, not ribbing... he has reasons. I hate nitpicking on others personally, who spell bad (& yes, he does, but HAS some reasons) online.

I can determine what he says, pretty easily, just by the words & how they are used in the context in which they're written... even w/ guys who don't have his affliction.

BUT, to each his own... you're right on that account on his spelling, but he has reasons imo @ least!

(Still admittedly: I am NOT an expert on dyslexia, but I think my Dad may have it... can't spell worth a lick (came from another nation, maybe 10th grade education @ BEST, but was great @ his field: Tool & Die Engineering, 44 yrs. worth, schooled in Germany for it, great engineers there imo @ least))!

HOWEVER, my Pop's read MORE BOOKS THAN ANYBODY I KNOW too, oddly enough & I would never think to take him on in say, history, for 1 grounds/example... he'd outright plain-jane "SMOKE me" there.

Hey - I've had more than a few folks online take shots @ how I write... it may not be 'dead-solid 110% perfect diction/grammar', or even spelling (was a spelling bee champ in my time @ fairly high levels on national scale), & yes, it ticked me off. I have no excuses for it though. Especially considering I do like 3-4 edits of many of my posts. I have to, lol, TOO BIG!

Ashen imo? Does...

I would absolutely love to learn about this topic and take sides, but I just don't have the patients to get through all the spelling errors.

No sides to take, just learning... I make mistakes too guys. Correct me where I'm wrong, & a few folks here have over time... what resulted?

I GOT STRONGER FOR IT, everytime.

(I like the fact you admit where you are not strong: A man's GOTTA know his limitations. Know thyself...)



* That's all I ever want... I have NO choice really, if I want to keep making money in this field...

Learn more, everyday, GET STRONGER... even if only on trivia stuff. Live & learn & EARN imo!

Not to mention the condescending tone.

Now, on the tone you guys take w/ one another? I don't particularly like it either, but I imagine, someone STARTED UP, w/ someone... & are just defending themselves. I would too, & keep it EXACTLY on the level they took w/ me (even if it goes into the mud).

Well, whoever 'fired the first shot' is the guilty one, & I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE A LOOK for that... they know who they are, & so do you... but, I don't. Keeping outta the jam...

I figure, whoever took the first shot though, deserves equal treatment in kind. When in Rome... etc. & trust me: I am NOT above that myself. It's only right to do unto others, even in BAD situations, to defend one's self.

APK

P.S.=> Wouldn't matter that much to me anyhow... what matters is learning for me personally...

E.G.-> & I have here on this forums, especially about MODERN hardware & yes, even softwares... heck, I'll list a few, to "make myself look bad", lol, even!

Folks here HAVE 'changed my mind' a few times on what I thought was the 'best/better' softwares for particular purposes, quite a FEW times!

(e.g.-> a list)

• NOD32 & NAV, noted above in a URL in my last post's P.S., but, again, w/ some exceptions (important ones, & a 'discovery' lol)

• PerfectDisk vs. Diskeeper (Raxco PD is BETTER than Diskeeper my former fav. for single user environs & has TONS of documentation of this, Diskeeper had NO reply in retaliation/rebuttal on this account on their site or elsewhere I could find, but they are concentrating on networked environs more & background defragging (to defend them on THIS account)

• How the OpenGL ICD works on VISTA (and I made discoveries on how it works in 2000/XP/Server2003 too, software emulation in the oem OpenGL.DLL & oddly imo, calls to Direct X (DDRAW.DLL dependencies))

• VLC vs. MediaPlayer & others too

• ktr corrected me on the bus type used on Gigabyte IRAM models, SATA, not SATA2 iirc, as well (I don't commit every hardware detail anymore & can stand correction on it @ times, not my job focus anymore, but also, it's NOT right to misinform, even unintentionally... I thanked him for it in fact!

Every situation has "outs" & conditions I have found... & it's VERY EASY to 'pick apart' someone on that basis... especially in this complex & varied + WIDE field... nobody, knows it all... nobody! TOO MUCH TO KNOW, lol...

Preaching, lol... my bad!

(BUT, this forums is TOO GOOD to have a fight of name-tossing nature, etc. imo)... apk

 

[BXtreme]

on the epinions link, in the cons it says 'lack of hardware driver support', i.e sometimes a driver crysis may occur

 

[AshenSugar]

AshenSugar's right about this: VISTA is written off of the basecode of Windows Server 2003 - he is correct on that account. I wouldn't call VISTA a TOTAL rewrite anymore than I would call XP a TOTAL rewrite of 2000!

However, changes DO & have been made in all of them between versions. Some are fairly 'radical'... I would call the VISTA ones pretty radical in some capacities too though.

The most radical ones so for imo, w/ examples of WHY I say it (some, not all) have been the transitions between:

• NT 3.5x-> NT4 (move of GUI subsystem from usermode/Ring 3/RPL 3 to kernel mode/Ring 0/RPL 0, & also @ the desktop level, moving from Program Manager (like Windows 3.x desktop) to the "workplace like shell" (Os/2 like) desktops we use now, the intro. of DirectX (3.0, iirc) to a Windows NT-based OS! "the start of great things to come", lol!)

yeah the gui was a major change,BUT you could run explorer on 3.51, ms put out a pack for it mainly for testing but it became VERY popular(hence was used in 95 and nt4)

i have it, as well as some older versions of windows nt3

• NT 4 -> 2000 (network stack change of primary protocol carrier NetBIOS/LanManager -> Tcp/IP, the introduction of "Active Directory" (AD), in response to Novell Directory Services (NDS) - displacing the NT domain model for instance, DirectX 3.0 -> 5.0, iirc as well (as to what came w/ the OS, & it could iirc, be upgraded to DirectX 6, possibly more/later ones, but the "memory fades here" on this account)))

nt4 came with dx3, never from my exp got a dx5 update BUT if you dug around enought on ms's site they had dx6.1 for nt4 and with a decent card(nvidia mostly) you could play games quite well on nt4 dispite it "not being supported"

NOTE: Fairly BIG change in the desktop came here too, w/ the introduction of IE 4.0, & it's largely taking the place of the older EXPLORER.EXE shell... more web integration into the desktop (not good imo, but here we are today - mind you, this happened in NT4, NOT during the transition to 2000 from NT 4)

i agree about the active desktop crap(desktop webpage crap sucks)

but its still with us to a point, tho atleast its not default like it was when you installed ie4(hated when acctive desktop crashed....)

• 2000 -> XP (changes mainly for gaming, better compatibility, but not as big as those above imo)

most of the changes in xp where actualy to make it more "noob friendly" like system restore, the new "fisher price: my first pc" themes (im acctualy the one who started that "fisher price" stuff about xp thats even refranced in wikipedia lol)

ms did this for marketing reasions, b4 you ask why i say this and how i know this, i know because i got a day long "tour" of ms when i was up in belview visiting relitives(fathers sister) and they admited the main reasion xp was pushed out was because they couldnt push 2k as a home os after they pushed it as a PURE BUISNESS platform from day one, and ME as "the next great desktop windows", thus xp was born, born early, and like any premi it had problems, its better now, but its still got its "querks".
ms pushed more app compat support into the default gui, this was done to help home users keep using outdated win16 apps(16bit apps from 9x days) and dos apps, stuff that honestly should have been replaced or run on a box where it had its native os.

xp was the first windows desktop/workstation os to be put out without its server counterpart being ready, it took ms almost 2 years extra to finnish server 2003 after the project was fully split from the xp codebase(during the beta stages) and thanks to that extra time ms removed ALOT of useless lagacy code, also removed a HUGE number of buggs and flaws, personaly i think ms should have put out an XP SE, based on server 2003 core, my model would have been that current xp owners could upgrade their current xp disks to "xp se" free with a slipstream, it would have cleared up a HUGE number of the problems xp still has.

but i digress, xp wasnt as big a boost as some people think(not meaning you APK, meaning others) under sp4 you can game using 2k just as well as with xp given your talking about native win32 games(you know stuff not made to run on dos or win95 dos mode)

• XP -> Windows Server 2003 (Fairly big, changes made based on corrections (many) from Windows Automatic Error Reporting - now THIS, has been called a total rewrite, but I have trouble w/ that, because for instance, the IP stack? Still based on BSD model it has had since, iirc, 2000 - some changes happened there too though, as far as networking is concerned)

as i understand it very little of the code wasnt changed in the core os, this is because xp was TOTALY UNSUITABLE as a true server(as in domain server or webserver not a file server, hell you can run win3.11 for workgroups as a file server )

ms had already started taring the core apart when xp was put into beta to try and find and fix the problems, in the end they had to do some pretty radical things, the effect root being that we got an os that was as fast and light on resorces and as stable as windows 2000 pro, with all the app compat and security improvments that xp had, an os the really should have been marketed as a server AND desktop/workstation , it was marketed as a workstation to a point with windows xp x64 but due to ms not really pushing the os and pushing for better driver support x64 was kinda born a laim duck.

ms did a good thing with 2003, had then taken it a step ferther and removed even more lagacy code i would have been even happyer, if i honestly need to run dos or windows9x apps i can alwase dual boot or setup a system that was acctualy made to run those apps, not like it would cost much, 25bucks or less for a good 9x machien, could probbly get a dox box free by looking in free piles at gradge sales or by checking the paper.

• Windows Server 2003 -> VISTA (many changes as you all know, mainly in the display subsystem moving to DirectX from older style GDI, USB into usermode/RPL3/Ring 3 iirc, & of course, & far more you are all aware of, & some you may not be, like Address Space Randomization)

some of the changes are radical, but the kernal and much of the core are not drasticly changed, they did change ALOT of how the os interacts with itself(no more kernel mode drivers for one)

i disslike vista currently because support SUCKS, drivers,apps,security, updates even all suck, my buddy payed 575 to ms for 2 copys of ultimet, he gets a disscount due to his work...he got 2003 ent full retail for 30bucks....)
he instaled one of the WGA updated with auto update it dissabld areo and forced him to call them to get it reenabled, ended up having to pay 15bucks for them to send him a new key because the support people couldnt get vista to unlock like it should have........

i jumped on xp early because i was GIVEN xp pro free by a friend who got a pc that came with it but he ran solaris+winnt4+2k for his work(programer and debuger) and he didnt want xp because they didnt plan to support it for at least a year, after 9 months i went back to 2k because xp updates kept breaking things like video drivers forcing LONG cycles of me hammering windows to get the drivers to inilize on boot again.

vista is to young and was rushed out, ms cut alot of fetures, replacing them with VERY heavy DRM this angers me, ms should have spent that time insuring that vista was READY FOR PRIME not insuring that i cant watch my hd dvd/bdd on my 20.1in lcd with my x1900xtx because its nod hdcp complyant.
or that i cant listen to my super audio disks at full quility/at all because my soundcards not approved to pass hd content to my speekers.
(had this bite me already in testing, a buddy loaned me 4 sacd's the sounds amazing under 2003, under vista 3 disks sounded like 48k mp3(ok maby 64k, eather way it was HORRID) the 4th was some weird "dont pirat music" "music" that was ghay as hell.

this kinda crap is just plain stupid.

Correct where I am off up there fellas, or add detail... thanks! Calling any of these a TOTAL rewrite? Well... I dunno about that - they have had some big changes, but much of the code just came from its predecessors really, improving steadily upon each one successively.

(One heck of a good foundation for them to start from for VISTA, using Windows Server 2003 as its foundation base code, imo @ least - Best Windows NT-based OS I have seen to date, & it only makes sense: All those years of sending errmsg/abend info. to Microsoft from Automatic Error Reporting paid off.)

Windows Server 2003, on the other hand, is "almost a rewrite" from what I understand, of the foundation code from 2000/XP (more the latter, because XP built off of 2000, whereas 2000 was a 'radical near rewrite' of NT (big changes, @ the IP stack level (moving from NetBIOS/Lanmanager as the primary network protocol, to Tcp/IP taking its place, for example, AD, & more))...

APK

P.S.=> Stop arguing fellas... it's just computers. I know, sometimes, I am NOT one to talk... but think about it. You're ALL 'into' this stuff, & it's easy to be 'passionate' about it, because you like it! Ahhh, what's the use... lol! apk

yeah 2003 is a hell of a good os, i got it about 2 weeks b4 RTM hit shelves, been using it ever sence!!!!! never even considered going back to xp.......


and DeMutla and i get into it at times, he posts stuff thats eather FUD or severly scewed then denies it when you show him to be wrong (such as ms admiting gaming under vista with current games would acctualy be slower then under xp/2k/2k3)

but sall good, i like him mostly, he seems like an allright sort, if a little stuborn(and im not like that at all)

and thx for the reviews, i never had been able to find any decent gaming reviews of 2003 as a workstation, but its been a long time since i tryed to find any as well

i have not seen a singel bad review of 2003 EVER and i looked and others linux freaks i know have looked, infact i have converted some total linux nuts into 2003 lovers for gaming and other uses, things linux dosnt do well or at all like active directory type functions.

2003 is a ROCK SOLID OS, and im hoping server 2008 ends up being a rocksolid os as well because that is where i may be upgrading when the time comes.

 

[AshenSugar]

on the epinions link, in the cons it says 'lack of hardware driver support', i.e sometimes a driver crysis may occur

remmber some of these reviewers didnt realise that 2003 takes 2k and xp drivers BY DESIGN, so if it works with xp/2k then it works with 2003, period, you may have to "trick" the installer as i do with my mothers office jet 5510 all in one unit by setting the setup.exe to "windows xp" compat mode but thats rare.

i have TONS of hardware, stuff thats just outright RARE or WEIRD like PD drive(phase dule, sort of like a cd burner+magnetic storge, also reads cd's) 2003 uses it fine even supports the windows 2k software in native mode.
i have a magneto optical drive from philips that uses 8.7gb cartreges, works in 2003 no problem using the 2k drivers OR the later made 2003 drivers, tho they arent any better, just made to allow you to install from/to magneto optical media from cd install.(you had to request the drivers from philips)

no worries m8, i havent found a singel peice of hardware that i couldnt fine drivers for that was nt compatable, if it had nt drivers(nt4/2k/xp) it works in 2003

 

[Alec§taar]

yeah the gui was a major change,BUT you could run explorer on 3.51, ms put out a pack for it mainly for testing but it became VERY popular(hence was used in 95 and nt4)

i have it, as well as some older versions of windows nt3

As do I... it was ONLY beta (@ BEST) & yes, buggy. In fact, I have an NT 3.51 box that runs here, to this very day (486 Dx/4 133mhz CPU, Vesa Local Bus Diamond Stealth 64 windows accelerated video, 32mb 30-pin FastPage RAM (60ns speed), & a TekRam 16mb of memory onboard caching VLB controller (70ns speed RAM in same chips type as system, 256k SRAM on mobo cache) & it runs it WELL! Most current possible drivers applied (well, from YEARS ago, another era imo in this field).

However, I stay w/ the Program Manager shell vs. that prototype. Why? Stability.

nt4 came with dx3, never from my exp got a dx5 update BUT if you dug around enought on ms's site they had dx6.1 for nt4 and with a decent card(nvidia mostly) you could play games quite well on nt4 dispite it "not being supported"

Yup, I know - I applied it, the Direct X "6" patch... barely functional as far as accessing ALL of the DirectX 6 enhancements... I did it, specifically for Quake II play in fact.

i agree about the active desktop crap(desktop webpage crap sucks)

Well, it can be 'dangerous', imo @ least, because the web itself can be 'dangerous'...

but its still with us to a point, tho atleast its not default like it was when you installed ie4(hated when acctive desktop crashed....)

Right, I agree there.

most of the changes in xp where actualy to make it more "noob friendly" like system restore, the new "fisher price: my first pc" themes (im acctualy the one who started that "fisher price" stuff about xp thats even refranced in wikipedia lol)

Probably needed doing... I didn't think so, but there were folks that felt that. Personally? I ran XP (when I ran it that is) w/ the "CLASSIC" type desktop... like Win2k.

I am not 'nuts' about the new theme... reminds me of lifesavers candy rolls, lol (which, I like, mind you, to eat... not for a color scheme - but, this is PURELY personal: To each his own here, beauty in the eye of the beholder & all that).

ms did this for marketing reasions, b4 you ask why i say this and how i know this, i know because i got a day long "tour" of ms when i was up in belview visiting relitives(fathers sister) and they admited the main reasion xp was pushed out was because they couldnt push 2k as a home os after they pushed it as a PURE BUISNESS platform from day one

Well, I can tell you, point-blank: 2000 was not as good of a gaming platform as XP is... how do I know? I'll give you a SPECIFIC example (deals mostly in SOUND compatibility w/ games, even 9x ones, let alone older DOS ones (there is DosBox 6.5 to help w/ this on 2000 though)):

Williams Arcade Games - I loved them as a boy (arcades of the 1980's child here, Williams Defender/StarGate two of my favs... Robotron 2084 yet another). This emulator was designed for Windows 9x, ran on it perfectly.

On 2000? Oh, it ran... no sound though, not w/ out help. On XP however?? Pefectamundo, no 3rd party tools required.

Today though? Imo, quite possibly?? MAME32 would probably do a better job on 2000, but I don't have 2k up here & running to test that theory either.

and ME as "the next great desktop windows", thus xp was born, born early, and like any premi it had problems, its better now, but its still got its "querks".

Sure, that's to be EXPECTED, & especially @ an OS' 'birth stage' & childhood (for lack of a better analogy, lol)... just like we're seeing (imo, to a lesser degree though) w/ VISTA now.

We've ALL seen this before, & worse... NT 3.5x -> NT 4 & NT 4 -> 2000 imo, being the worst... not only driver stuff, but also apps for particular purposes coming out (defraggers, databases of graphical nature, & FAR more).

We lived, lol! Here we are today, running stuff 10x as capable & stable.

ms pushed more app compat support into the default gui, this was done to help home users keep using outdated win16 apps(16bit apps from 9x days) and dos apps, stuff that honestly should have been replaced or run on a box where it had its native os.

Yes, exactly, I agree... especially, per my SPECIFIC example above.

xp was the first windows desktop/workstation os to be put out without its server counterpart being ready, it took ms almost 2 years extra to finnish server 2003 after the project was fully split from the xp codebase(during the beta stages) and thanks to that extra time ms removed ALOT of useless lagacy code, also removed a HUGE number of buggs and flaws, personaly i think ms should have put out an XP SE, based on server 2003 core, my model would have been that current xp owners could upgrade their current xp disks to "xp se" free with a slipstream, it would have cleared up a HUGE number of the problems xp still has.

Well, per that? I think VISTA is exactly that... XP, w/ Win2k3 server 'core', & many security + desktop GUI enhancements. More to it than that, even @ the core (Address Space Randomization being one specifically), but it is largely, that... A BETTER XP!

but i digress, xp wasnt as big a boost as some people think(not meaning you APK, meaning others) under sp4 you can game using 2k just as well as with xp given your talking about native win32 games(you know stuff not made to run on dos or win95 dos mode)

Which is why my list above, on the changes between the OS, in Windows NT-based OS' ancestry + architectural changes, is SO short, on the 2000-> XP revision/progression.

as i understand it very little of the code wasnt changed in the core os, this is because xp was TOTALY UNSUITABLE as a true server(as in domain server or webserver not a file server, hell you can run win3.11 for workgroups as a file server )

XP can't be a 'true server' not only for stability reasons, but it's like any workstation/pro client node OS: It has limits on # of connections to it afaik... it's really the same OS in 2000 Pro vs. Server, but is intentionlly crippled by MS (to make monies). I am sure you know this.

So, what you say, for a number of reasons? VERY true enough, but I have seen 2000 rigs do a decent job as is, as servers...

Still, 2k can't hold a candle (imo @ least) to Windows Server 2003...

The latter's been rated, afaik/iirc, near 99.99% uptime (mainframe/midrange class enterprise level stability)...

I.E.-> 4 of the fabled, "5 9's" if not moreso by now...

(& they ALL had C2 level security certifications as is in the Windows NT-based OS family, per the "Orange Book" definitions thereof).

ms had already started taring the core apart when xp was put into beta to try and find and fix the problems

You can BET that is an ongoing thing, in ALL of them... constantly.

ms did a good thing with 2003, had then taken it a step ferther and removed even more lagacy code i would have been even happyer,

OK: This part, even above when you mention it? Talk to me - give me specifics... do you mean, like, backward compatibilty related code??

If so, well... I have YET to see any problems running apps I ran for YEARS on 2000/XP, but instead on Server 2003... sure, some had revisions (the apps) but many not.

Thanks for specifics here, IF you have them WITH examples. NOT in games, but rather in say, shareware/freeware, or utilities mostly...

Even office type apps IF necessary, but largely, these are built off libs/DLLs calling, so only parts get patched (per the Ms vision of a document-centric world, where the app calling a document doesn't matter, many can open each others documents, no sweat... surf the web in IE & Outlook (full) even? POSSIBLE, in other words as 1 example only.... Word later doing HTML for the web? Possible, etc. because of this shared lib model!)

if i honestly need to run dos or windows9x apps i can alwase dual boot or setup a system that was acctualy made to run those apps, not like it would cost much, 25bucks or less for a good 9x machien, could probbly get a dox box free by looking in free piles at gradge sales or by checking the paper.

OR, use 3rd party tools like DosBox 6.5 for sound, etc. (there are fixes/patches out there like that one, via an addon).

some of the changes are radical, but the kernal and much of the core are not drasticly changed

Well, not true in some cases... NT 3.5x -> NT 4 & NT4 -> 2000 MOSTLY imo... 2000 -> XP? Not huge, smallish ones imo as well!

they did change ALOT of how the os interacts with itself(no more kernel mode drivers for one)

?

Drivers (nearly all, if NOT all) RUN totally IN kernel space (ring 0) which is WHY they have to be written SO carefully... they can, like the OS, touch ANY memory thru the system... ANY, including OS space itself.

=========================================================
APK DISCLAIMER/ADMISSION OF GUILT, lol, lack of experience on this type of coding:
=========================================================
Plug-N-Play drivers though? May be an exception & run partially in Ring 0/RPL 0/kernel mode, vs. Ring 3/RPL 3/usermode... but, not sure, admittedly.
=========================================================

I code & have for nearly 25 yrs. & roughly 15 on Win32/.NET most recently, but not in driver mode typically using the DDK. SO, no 'expert' here. So, that said, correct me where you need to, but here is my understanding of it above, & below next:

Ms helped a LOT w/ WHQL testing. WDM (Windows Driver Model), & Ms DDK (device driver kit) templates for basic function too, + STABILITY... tons more if you would like me to get into it, especially from NT 4 -> 2000. BUT, not much for 2000 -> XP, not really.

After all - I asked you for examples above, so in kind, I can provide many enhancements from NT 4 -> 2000 or the other 'radical one' NT 3.5x -> NT 4.0...

BUT, not sure here.... are you still talking 2000 -> XP? If so, not many imo either.

BUT the drivers part above? I think you're a BIT 'off' on... perhaps you mistated it? OR, did I misunderstand you, while we are talking about, lol, 4 to 5 diff. models of this OS (confusing)...

i disslike vista currently because support SUCKS, drivers,apps

Not MS' fault on this part... Driver coders from 3rd party OEM's need to catch up on 7,000 new API calls, & a quite possibly WAY diff. DDK (I have not looked @ this one, but i Have in 2000/XP)... & a new DirectX 10 setup too for vidcards etc.!

,security, updates even all suck, my buddy payed 575 to ms for 2 copys of ultimet, he gets a disscount due to his work...he got 2003 ent full retail for 30bucks....)

Security I am going to differ w/ you on... it is WAY better on many levels that you do NOT see (ASR is the biggest imo, & needed - the types of 'bushwhacks' that took advantage of this 'shook the planet' in some virus' that used it)...

UAC? More of a nuisance, & circumventable as well...

The Installer having SYSTEM priveleges (per Joanna Rutkowska's findings, MS technical fellow, while confronting Dr. Mark Russinovich on it & largely getting the better of him imo too) is another 'potential hole'.

Still, it's better... even @ the apps level, which imo is, the MOST insecure one... IE7 helps a good deal here for example. Overall, VISTA is far more secure, than even Windows Server 2003, even w/ its secured IE6, its default is a WAY secured mode.

he instaled one of the WGA updated with auto update it dissabld areo and forced him to call them to get it reenabled, ended up having to pay 15bucks for them to send him a new key because the support people couldnt get vista to unlock like it should have........

Ms has started to 'bend' on this... they are NOT inflexible! See here:

Microsoft to change frequency of WGA checks:

http://www.infomaticsonline.co.uk/computeractive/news/2158172/microsoft-change-frequency-wga

& more, in the last couple days in fact!

& I will brb, after I finish this discussion w/ you, on this note...

Still, this IS to be expected: Just "growing pains"... & we've ALL seen it before, & imo?? Far worse... especially NT 3.5x -> NT 4, NT 4 -> 2000!

vista is to young and was rushed out, ms cut alot of fetures, replacing them with VERY heavy DRM this angers me, ms should have spent that time insuring that vista was READY FOR PRIME not insuring that i cant watch my hd dvd/bdd on my 20.1in lcd with my x1900xtx because its nod hdcp complyant.

I am not 'nuts' about DRM & this Hdcp stuff, but I am not as 'into that' as you are... personally?

I tried VISTA for about 3 hrs. the other day @ best buy & liked it... quite a lot!

Still, man - it's NEW, & MS will change things if need be on it.

or that i cant listen to my super audio disks at full quility/at all because my soundcards not approved to pass hd content to my speekers.

BUT, you can listen to it, albeit not as @ a high of quality... I am not enough of an 'audiophile' imo, to be truly upset by this... but, if YOU are? Well, having to buy new equipment is a beyotch...

yeah 2003 is a hell of a good os, i got it about 2 weeks b4 RTM hit shelves, been using it ever sence!!!!! never even considered going back to xp.......

Agreed, 110%... what Windows NT/2000/XP should always have been... but, speaking as a coder?

Windows NT-based OS, ARE truly, the LARGEST PROGRAMMING ARTIFACTS IN EXISTENCE afaik...

& it is mega hard, even on smaller programs, to write something that runs everywhere, w/ everything, perfectly... especially for programs of 'size' (purely relative term)... takes time to grow & change/patch until it is.

Personally? This is why shareware/freeware is NOT that easy, vs. say, MIS/IS/IT programming in a CLOSED STD. HARDWARE + SOFTWARE ENVIRONS (which avoid tons of diff. hardware & software mixes causing instability or incompatiblity)...

DB coding, which I do & have been doing for coming up on 11-13 yrs. as a pro & years before it on my own or in academia since my days on UNIX, VMS, OS/400 & more? Saves you from that hassle...

You don't have that level of protection on shareware/freeware, OR @ a larger level, consumer grade "OS' for the masses"...

Mainly because the masses IS potentially everyone on this planet, & their personal mixture of hardware + software creates a MASSIVE amount of possible permutations thereof for both hardware/software...

(LOL, might as well do 6 billion (planet human population afaik) factorial, as to the possible number of possible mixes... the amount of folks on the planet X 1 less, X 1 less, etc. et al).

and DeMutla and i get into it at times, he posts stuff thats eather FUD or severly scewed then denies it when you show him to be wrong (such as ms admiting gaming under vista with current games would acctualy be slower then under xp/2k/2k3)

Well, like I did above? I list a number of places I had MY thinking 'changed' by you, & iirc, even DaMulta... it happens. Just think of it like.... well, educaton & sharing ideas.

You & I bump heads, but we NEVER get into arguments... if you can do that w/ me? You can, w/ he, & same to DaMulta w/ you too imo!

but sall good, i like him mostly, he seems like an allright sort, if a little stuborn(and im not like that at all)

There you go... but, I think you are both OK.

and thx for the reviews, i never had been able to find any decent gaming reviews of 2003 as a workstation, but its been a long time since i tryed to find any as well

Those are MOSTLY just reviews of 2k3... to get ones for it on gaming, heck: Issue the literal quoted boolean string I put up above for gaming... you'll find them. Not a lot, specifically for gaming on Win2k3, but they are there most likely.

i have not seen a singel bad review of 2003 EVER and i looked and others linux freaks i know have looked, infact i have converted some total linux nuts into 2003 lovers for gaming and other uses, things linux dosnt do well or at all like active directory type functions.

Neither have I... & astoundingly, the LINUX/UNIX pack @ SLASHDOT (worst Unix/Linux zealots I have ever seen online & I note that above)? They won't bust on it usually, or not hard. How could they?

It's damn good. Great foundation for VISTA too.

2003 is a ROCK SOLID OS, and im hoping server 2008 ends up being a rocksolid os as well because that is where i may be upgrading when the time comes.

It probably will, & will get the benefit of what MS did w/ XP, vs. Server 2003 you are 'upset' over... they will fix the 'holes' in VISTA, & apply that to Server 2008. Just as they did for XP -> Server 2003.

They KNOW what they're doing on THAT account & it does seem logical to me!



Hey, it worked for XP -> Server 2003!

(On the beta test list for it here... can't wait to try it!)

APK

P.S.=> Yet another "hellishly long" discussion between us, lol... DONE EDITING NOW, quote away & nitpick where needed, lol... apk

 

[DaMulta]

Not all games are slower in Vista/ a lot of games actually work faster than in XP.


LOL I love you guys

 

[Alec§taar]

Not all games are slower in Vista/ a lot of games actually work faster than in XP.

True - I have seen reports of that, recently, iirc, from ExtremeTech!

APK

 

[ktr]

This is a good FAQ on vista i have found: http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=vista&page=1

 

[Alec§taar]

all software has buggs, i dont mean to say it dosnt, but ms is REALLY bad about putting out os's early, xp then vista, xp couldnt work as a server because of its flaws, hence server 2003 the finnished version of xp, vista will have server 2008 the finnished version of vista......see what im saying?

There's reasons for it... I told you some, from while I worked for a division of NCR in fact, in a reply I did to you last evening... coming from a commercial software development background in fact... MONEY, it talks!

They say, "talk's cheap"? NOT WHEN MONEY DOES THE TALKING!

Marketers & legal folks make delivery time agreements, & have to meet 'big buying time traditional schedules' like ThanksGiving (retailers say 'biggest shopping day of the year' prior to & into Xmas)...

Venture capitalists take out loans (or their own cash) & invest... speculating on big returns.

You ship even 1 day late, per the agreement? You get PENALIZED hugely... not chump change either. So, for investors like those? Win-Win really!

... & as the developer?? YOU ARE UNDER THE PRESSURE TO DELIVER (60-80 hr. work weeks? NOT UNCOMMON - it literally gave me my gray hair, & as far back as my early 30's 10 yrs. ago in fact).

It's how it works man... & WHY!

I was JUST LIKE YOU!

@ least, until I had been commanded "Issue product NOW, even though it has rare & intermittent bugs" that my colleagues & I (not just from NCR division example above, but others too in non-commercial environs) said "IT ONLY WOULD TAKE US A WEEK TOPS TO OVERCOME Q/A's FINDINGS!"

Then we understood 1 thing: It was OUR paychecks!!!

See - IT/IS/MIS even??? You are sort of a business INSIDE THE BUSINESS... & only as good as "What have YOU done for me, not lately or ever, but TODAY?" type environs.

* Sad, but true... issue, & patch later IS the way of life in this field, AND THERE IS NO UNION PROTECTING US... I wish to God (no disrespect intended lord, using your name in vain here, just truth) there was a programmer's union!

Many times, when a BIG job is done? You get the axe... then, it's gravy for the oem, not having to pay a fulltime development staff. Imo, a coder today, is probably better off contracting (for the monies @ least, NOT the benefits packages, lol!).

APK

P.S.=> Now, w/ OS? Especially this family (largest programming artifact in existence mind you)?? WAY HARDER... having to account for hardware changes alone would make me ill & probably quit it eventually...

Personally? About Windows & Win32 & even .NET??? I am surprised to heck it runs as well as it does period & on SO MUCH PERIPHERAL HARDWARE!!! Most versatile platform there is... but, on the reverse/flipside?

Folks like you complaining? Is HOW 'changes for the good' happen... apk

 

[Alec§taar]

LOL I love you guys

LOL! Go easy man... lol!



* You don't want to give the rest of the guys any ideas on ways to take 'shots' @ you based on that comment, lol... too easy, door's WIDE open for that!

APK

P.S.=> Personally? I love discussing this stuff w/ AshenSugar... if that is who you are speaking about (HE & I)...

See, I think I have my BEST discussions on this stuff w/ him imo, here @ this forums @ least...

Trust me - he does know his stuff to a large extent, & has quite a history on it (probably as long as my own, on Windows PC stuff & DOS @ least)...

He actually makes me have to CONCENTRATE & THINK... & he has shown me things I was not aware of too, I give him that (mainly, what is better softwares on certain levels, & I sort of consider myself an "amateur coinnoiseur" on softwares)... apk