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The big three bail out ... stay on topic please

Discussion in 'General Nonsense' started by DaedalusHelios, Dec 11, 2008.

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  1. DaedalusHelios

    DaedalusHelios

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    I want to know the general opinion of the members here about the "big three bailout". Remember: Both democrat politicians and republican politicians agree on supporting it but they have different ideas on regulations or requirements associated with it.

    I honestly don't know what is the best option dispite reading alot about it lately. Lets keep this away from partisan BS like "republicans eat babies" or "democrats are socialist pinko Commies".

    For humor:

    [​IMG]


    If this thread gets out of hand lets close it just as fast as it started please. ;)
     
  2. lamil

    lamil New Member

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    Give them time to figure out how they will fail I guess. At this point preserving some jobs for a few months is okay by me.
     
  3. Nitro-Max

    Nitro-Max New Member

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    can i just ask mate being british what sort of engine options you get on Ford makes as over here we get small ford cars with small engines cheap to run insure great MPG etc...Do you get this option as most american cars seem to have huge engines thrown in as a selling point.

    Speed shouldnt be a selling point as ive said before there are maximum speed limits building such powerfull cars is pointless and just tempting the public to break laws which in return pay the government with fines from speeding motorists.

    A good selling point now would be cheap reliable clean cars with the best MPG money can buy (especially with all the problems we have with the middle east). Even more so alternative fuels electric cars etc.. And i think alot of the world that hates the american car wastage and polution cos thats all it is really if were being honest about it we have cars that can do 60mpg compared to some big american cars that are lucky to get 20mpg would love for America to be the first country to take that big step in Transportation and technology.

    thanks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2008
  4. DaedalusHelios

    DaedalusHelios

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    I buy Mazda mainly but I used to own a 98' stage 3 cobra mustang, 02' Jeep liberty, and '03 Saturn SL2. Not all at the same time but my mazda has never had any mechanical problems and I have put the most mileage on it. Mazda is owned by Ford but made in japan. The big three doesn't need to make big engine cars as much but even old people in the USA are prone to buy V8's out of habit. An old lady really doesn't need 300hp.

    Remember American road systems are different in the USA than Britain. Many people commute to work long distances on highways that support 75MPH pretty well so 200hp is ok IMO but when it passes 200hp its pointless for a soccer mom.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2008
  5. Ahhzz

    Ahhzz

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    Personal opin: Take the 25bill, or even the 37bill, count the number of taxpayers, split it (http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html shows a 300 mill or so total pop), and make it vouchers for all of us, only usable for a purchase of a recent (last 3 years?) American made vehicle. Figure 150Mill actual working Americans (http://delawarelibertarian.blogspot.com/2008/06/how-many-americans-actually-work_27.html) or so, and give us each $250 towards a new domestic vehicle, to be used within 6 months. Make it something that can be signed over to someone else, with notary signature, and watch people sell their's for half face value (more money to spend), and let someone got put down 10-15 vouchers on a new car, and the car companies get their money, and it actually gets Americans buying their cars, which is what they say the real problem is. Not that they built bad cars, or they don't last, or get bad gas mileage, but really, Americans just don't want to buy their cars...riiiiight....
     
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  6. Nitro-Max

    Nitro-Max New Member

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    My car is a peugeot 106 1.1 1100cc and is 65bhp it will do 50mpg as it is a petrol version a diesil will do 60mpg it has a 0-60mph in 12 seconds and will do above the uk national speed limit of 70mph with no problems.

    ok peugeot isnt the most reliable make of car being french granted but the diesil versions can do 250,000 miles and more easy with good maintenance.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2008
  7. lamil

    lamil New Member

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    that would never fly in the usa.
     
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  8. DaedalusHelios

    DaedalusHelios

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    Those super tiny sub-compacts don't do very well at over 60mph due to the wheel base being so small. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't do the job of replacing other in-town commuter cars in the USA. Many people do just city driving in a Cadillac Escalade which is pretty useless.

    More small cars need to be marketed in the USA. Like the mazda2 instead of cars like the Prius which is not reasonably priced.
     
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  9. mdm-adph

    mdm-adph New Member

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    It's not even about huge engines being an options -- it's about there oftentimes being no option at all.

    From what I've seen, Fords in Europe typically have a lots of engine options, including diesels and whatnot -- for instance, last time I checked, the European Ford Focus had a choice of like 10 different engines, all the way from 1000cc up to 2000cc (and everything in between), with half of those being diesels.

    In America, I think the Ford Focus has... one engine option. No, seriously. A 2000cc, I'm pretty sure, that gets in the low to mid 30's in MPG.

    I have a long commute every day, and I drive a car that has 85hp, and it'll do 90mph on a highway like it's nothing. :p I drive on freeways, country roads, and everything in between on that trip, so I don't think it's the roads. ;)

    Anyway -- I used to really, really be against Americans bailing out their auto companies -- if they're bad companies, let them fail, right? However, when I learned that US auto companies have to compete in a market with Japanese cars, Korean cars, Europeans cars -- all companies that are largely funded by those countries' governments -- I changed my tune.

    You can't "let the free market work," if the cards are already stacked against US car companies. You have to either put heavy tariffs on foreign cars, or you have to let your government take a share in controlling them.

    It flew for many, many years. :p Read about it -- only recently have regular, run-of-the-mills cars in America become so ridiculously fast. Look at some average speeds for "sports" cars in the 80's and early 90's.
     
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  10. hat

    hat Enthusiast

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    Fuck the bailout. Why should we bail out the big corporations that give themselves millions of dollars in BONUS checks (not counting regular pay)? Why do we, THE TAXPAYERS, not the government, THE TAXPAYERS, have to bail out those greedy SOBs up in high positions when they pay themselves 8-figure gross payment in a year?

    What happens if we DO bail them out (which we will, just watch)? They will still continue to outsource, and they will continue to try to sell cars to people who can't afford to buy them in the first place. Again, more greed. They can have thier phat 8-figure loot but they can't seem to be able to pay the AMERICAN worker thier proper wages, so we manufacture goods in shit places like China. I bought some blank DVDs at kmart recently and when I was trying to the the plastic covering off of each individual DVD case I broke 2 of the cases. I wasn't even being rough, the case was THAT cheaply made that the case hinge just broke rendering the case uselsss.

    They argue that outsourcing allows EVERYONE to afford good things. They said that, because of outsourcing, EVERYONE can afford a 3 grand hi-def TV. The only person I know with such a TV is one of my uncles, and the only reason he has it is because he got a $23k worker's comp settlement. Everyone can afford a new car? My ass.

    Greed is all it is. I don't understand what they do with 8-figure pay, for fucks sake my uncle gets under 10k a YEAR in social security checks and he manages to get by (barely). I wonder what one of those top-paid execs would do in a situation like the every day average joe, worrying about how are they gonna afford this or that, how are they gonna pay this bill and that bill that have been piling up for months.
     
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  11. DaMulta

    DaMulta My stars went supernova

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    no ball out= another great depression and we are all living on the streets.

    If you have not really read into it then you don't know. U like having a pay check? U like the bank loaning your companay you work for overhead cash to pay you?

    Yea stuff like that. We are borderlined from that happening.


    It is greed. That's what caused the whole mess. It sucks that we have to print money to put in the system.

    It's funny we made so much money YET we still borrow a ton from China every year, and over half our states are more or less bankrupt.
     
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  12. Nitro-Max

    Nitro-Max New Member

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    Maybe it wont but to run big engine cars costs alot more money and more fuel and is also a bigger cost to the enviroment.

    I love some of the american cars i love alot of the mustangs and even though they are affordable to buy or import the fuel costs would just be amazingly stupid in the uk. we pay per litre not gallon and its very expensive as we have a 70% tax on fuel.

    Its time to see cars in a better light they arent street racing machines they are transport from one place to another the only way you get anywhere faster than anyone else is by breaking speed limits ok some might be quicker off the mark to get up to the speed limit but if you calcucate the diffence in seconds between 2 cars on a journey its not really much at all in time saving you really dont need big gas guzzling engines these should be left for big trucks etc that pulls heavy goods loads and need the horse power.

    The truth is its just become a way of life and some people are really stubborn for change even for the greater good because we didnt know how bad global warming was and we had good fuel prices and a good economy.

    How much longer do you want to rely on the middle east for oil?? all we do is make them richer and the terrorist organisations richer everytime theres a problem there gas prices go up it happend in the gulf war and it happend in the iraq war.

    Independance is the way to go we wont get dictated to that way at the moment we are like beggers with our hands out pleading for cheaper prices on everything granted its dropped now but only through the current global economic crysis.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2008
  13. magibeg

    magibeg

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    There's tons of low-end cars that do 0-60 in the 12's. A sunfire for example is around that mark (unless you get the gt). A Sebring also takes about 10s, for a couple quick examples.

    (realizing of course I'm going to get a lot of American car enthusiasts that are going to tell me every low end model does it in less)

    Chrysler is actually owned by a rich investment company and they can easily pay themselves out of it with no issues. The other 2 are in trouble due to bad management. If you're a capitalist you should let them suffer.
     
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  14. KieranD

    KieranD

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    GM and Chrysler are American pure and through, Fords do well in the UK and Europe.

    GM and Chrysler fail in the US that them f'kd, at least saving Ford is a decent idea because they have more international market share.

    In America its all about power in Japan and Europe its about handling adn other stuff, why do we have rally and street racing when you just have drag racing which is straight line and nascar which is round in a circle even look at your roads they are straight you have blocks we dont we have roundabouts and lots of corners and stuff.


    Fords are family cars GM and Chrysler are just big cars that milfs like to buy, the only nation to buy SUVs is America Europe likes a hatchback or a good old saloon version. Instead of SUVs in the UK you just have people who buy a plain old jeep like a range rover or summit.

    SUVs are not good cars neither are jeeps and range rovers, SUVs are notorious for accidents and the crap mileage. Jeeps and Range Rovers are built for work and i dunno why but they seem to be everywhere in London of all places which is has cramped and narrow roads.

    EDIT: my first car will have a good mileage, reliable, holds a value and looks decent, volkswagens are okay for that im not even bothered about tuning ect.
     
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  15. mdm-adph

    mdm-adph New Member

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    Well, you can't have it both ways -- if you don't bail them out, you've basically caused them to fail, because you won't put extensive tariffs on foreign cars. The US automakers never really had a chance.

    And you know what taxpayers get out of it? Profits, if your government takes a controlling share. :D It'll make you money in the end, just like it did for the government in the early 80's when it loaned a 1.5 billion or so to Chrysler. They got that loan money back, with like 30% interest.
     
  16. lemonadesoda

    lemonadesoda

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    If a small business goes bust, the owner get's into big trouble, goes personally bust/insolvent, is often prosecuted (for unpaid tax liabilities etc.) and is barred from earning more than a certain amount of money otherwise the excess must be paid to the courts to pay back creditors, and then he is also BANNED from setting up another company (in some European countries, not in others).

    Well, I'm OK for some state intervention if it will genuinely save thousands of jobs and other consequential knock-on effects to the supply industry BUT any action must NOT be to the personal benefit of the people that got the company into such a mess AND it must be done on a minimal basis and not be in any way anticompetitive to other businesses that have managed themselves better.

    #1./ The board must go and be banned from directorships. If they EVER want to work again in the future, they need to get salaried/waged jobs AND pay back ill gotten bonuses in the last 3 years
    #2./ The State/Gvt needs to prosectute them for (whatever) to return those ill gotton bonuses and salaries that were essentially theft (from the future) for their mismanagement.
    #3./ I like Ahhzz's idea (comment #5) about ration coupons. The proviso is that peeps can choose ANY "signicifantly made in America" vehicle not necessarily a car from the big 3. Note that these coupons need to be issues to private people AND to companies AND to any taxpayer in the world that pays US taxes. Perhaps the credit is based on total tax paid in the last 5 years or something.
    #4./ All the small business that are owed money by the big three and their associated companies GET PAID FIRST. Our company is owed money by a subsidiary of a big three and I suspect it is one of the companies they are going to "let go". And I'm very worried the big three gets bailed, but their suppliers dont get paid. And that is seriously unfair.
    #5./ Any state intervention MUST require triage, restructuring, and REDUCTION. If it aint working, it must be CHANGED not just BAILED OUT. They must be made to reduce output by 33% minimum. They can save the company, but they must reduce the size of the dinosaur. No exceptions. Across the board.
    #6./ Any monies made must be provided as a long term loan ABOVE the interest rate/zero curve. No free/cheap funding. Expensive funding.
    #7./ No incompetant "group of companies" may be allowed to own banks or finance vehicles. If they cant run themselves, they certainly cant run a financial services organisation OF ANY KIND *
    #8./ Any executive, and I mean ANY executive, discovered to be tunneling money out of the holding groups through "consultants" and "supply chain" etc. need to be hung drawn and quartered.
    #9./ There needs to be a full investigation and corporate governance audit of these companies and discovery of any possible vested interests over the last 3 years. Anyone found guilty needs to receive a smackdown.


    * Did you know that some of the big three have applied to become banks! WTF. Get it? They want to TAKE YOUR MONEY as savings deposits and use it as cheap funding for their shitty companies, and then you will still deposit because they will offer high interest rates AND BE PROTECTED DUE TO DEPOSIT INSURANCE. That's right... they want to game the system. Take tax payers money (your money) once, then take it again through bank deposits (your money), then take it again through depositor protection when they fail (your money again).

    The board executives that came up with that scam need to be prosecuted big time. Then hung drawn and quartered on public television.
     
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  17. mdm-adph

    mdm-adph New Member

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    What would you do about the trade imbalance, though? You can restructure all you want to, but if the "Big 3" still have to compete against government-funded companies, they're going to be in trouble again and again.
     
  18. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

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    I hate to break it to you guys but Ford was predicting profit by 2011. They didn't even need the bail out. They just wanted the money or "boost".

    Anyway you guys really haven't said what hurt the American auto makers to begin with. One word. Unions. They raised everyones salary so damn high through renegotiating contracts and such it ran all three in to the ground. Did you know the guy that runs the machine that applies the lugs on a truck in GM makes 75 dollars an hour?

    Now they have machines that will do this but that would mean a loss of a job. If any position is closed it has to be approved by the Union. If they don't like it they threaten a strike. This forces the "Big three" to keep paying them whatever they want just to keep the doors open.

    FYI the same position in Toyota U.S. is 45 dollars an hour. Don't blame the CEOs or CFOs. Blame the damn Unions for this mess.

    Also SUVs and Trucks are FAR more profitable to manufacture than cars. Their margin of profit is much bigger on them believe it or not. Cars take a LOT more engineering to get right than a truck. Plus its what they are known for and THATS why they pushed it on us so much. You can cry all you want about the environment too. People say American cars suck. So they build trucks. Then they complain they are killing the environment. So make up your damn mind. Buy an American car and "save" the enviroment or buy a truck and save the economy. Ether way shut the hell up. :banghead::banghead:
     
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  19. chris89 New Member

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    This just really confuses me, You'd rather have Mega companies go out of business and Thousards of people lossing their jobs?

    Time goverments of the world Stop Bailing out Banks and helped companies, Yes the only Profitable part of Chrysler is Jeep. But many of these companies are losing out to the Cheap Asian cars.

    E.g. Woolworths over here, has pretty much gone now as they are having a closing down sell (which is a rip off as it's only 10% off) their 30,000 are going to lose jobs, a Very small amount compared to the Big Three.
     
  20. mdm-adph

    mdm-adph New Member

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    Though I agree with you, be careful about saying "shut the hell up." You could get reported and receive an infraction. Should I be shocked if you don't, however? :D
     
  21. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

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    Well I didnt say it to anyone directly now did I? :toast:
     
  22. mdm-adph

    mdm-adph New Member

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    You're not speaking to the members of this forum when you mean "you?" ;)
     
  23. TheMailMan78

    TheMailMan78 Big Member

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    Of course not. It's a Metaphorical "you". Not anyone in particular. I would take the infraction if I had to say that to someone directly. However it wasn't intended that way. Its not even how it reads.
     
  24. mdm-adph

    mdm-adph New Member

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    Ah, you meant the metaphorical you. Of course -- my apologies. :laugh:

    Either way, I agree with what you're saying about trucks and SUV's. US car companies had to make these things, because, since they're not government funded like other car companies, they had to make cars that got them the most profits (SUV's -- the profit margins are huge on those since they're so cheap to make but can be sold for so much).

    It's not really their fault at all they're in the mess they're in.
     
  25. flashstar New Member

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    A lot of times, Americans like to buy cars because they are pleasurable. That's the whole idea of economics- to increase the pleasure that you get from stuff. Americans don't want small utilitarian cars when they can get huge luxurious cars or sporty fast cars without paying that much more. Plus, really small cars get destroyed on the freeway here.
     

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