Time travel

[TheLaughingMan]

yeah I know that gravity can bend space and time, but there is no way light doesn't have mass, if it doesn't have mass then it can't be affected by gravity.

Btw there are recently a debate between scientist that there are no gravity at all, I will try to research it again to be more clear

Those scientist were high as shit. They were really testing the effects of marijuana on their theories of quantum mechanics. The conclusion was there is no gravity and Grilled Stuffed Chicken Burritos rule.

 

[AphexDreamer]

yeah I know that gravity can bend space and time, but there is no way light doesn't have mass, if it doesn't have mass then it can't be affected by gravity.

Btw there are recently a debate between scientist that there are no gravity at all, I will try to research it again to be more clear

I don't think you are paying attention to what I am saying.

Photos (Particles that make light) are massless, google it and you will find not one place saying it has mass. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon

Photons follow geodesics, the shortest distance between two points, in other words a straight line. Gravity is caused by the warping of space due to the presence of mass. Therefore it is the path through space in which photons travel that is bent. The photons will travel this bent path making it appear as if light bends.


Say you are sitting on your bed. You know how your bed sinks? Well imagine the stars and planets as sitting on a large bed making it curve down. This effect is known as warping. Replace the bed with Spacetime and you have the warping of spacetime.

Now an objects travelling on the bed will go straight right? Lets say you have someone roll a marble from the flat end of the bed just next to where you are sitting, the marble will follow the path of the sinking part of the bed down to you, where you are sitting.

With really big stuff this can happen to light as well and the bigger the more of an effect (Bending).

 

[silkstone]

With really big stuff this can happen to light as well and the bigger the more of an effect (Bending).

I'm not sure if that is true, if space time is bent, shouldn't any object travelling thorough this bent space all take the same path? I'm pretty sure more massive objects wouldn't be effected any more or less.

I'm sorry i'm wrong. This is the geodetic effect. I'm just brushing up on it now

The 3 dimensional model doesn't work very well as it appears its both a bending and stretching effect, effectively acting in the 4th dimension. If 3d space time were just bent, everything passing through should be bent by equal amounts. However if the object is moving fast enough, it would "skip" over the bend, essentially (relatively speaking) moving slightly faster than before (although it would not be moving faster, just taking a shorter path).

To use the bed and blanket synonym, you'd need to think of a second, faster marble also going over the bed, instead of falling into the dip, it would skip over and continue more or less unaffected. In essence changing the 2d situation into a 3d one.

 

[AphexDreamer]

I'm not sure if that is true, if space time is bent, shouldn't any object travelling thorough this bent space all take the same path? I'm pretty sure more massive objects wouldn't be effected any more or less.

I'm sorry i'm wrong. This is the geodetic effect. I'm just brushing up on it now

Hmm I'm not sure I understand you. But every object in space follows the same rule as light, it just takes more to bend light.

The reason why the Earth, Mercury, Saturn, etc.. all rotate around the sun is because they are following the crurved path that our Sun has created via its mass and its warping of spacetime.

The Moon as well is the effect of the Earth's warping of space time, its following the curved path around the Earth.

Maybe this will help

Light doesn't orbit (Make circles) around stars and planets because it goes so fast, thats why it just gets bent instead.

Again Black Holes are so massive and dense they make a hole in the space-time rather then just warping it, although they still warp space time on the outer edges.

Maybe this pic will help you understand the black hole situation.

Notice the little diagram on the left. The Sun has some warping, the denser White Dwarf even more, the Nutron Star even more! And then the black hole just takes it all the way down.
This is why some say the Black Hole might be a Worm Hole (Shortcut so to speak) to other places, like parallel universes perhaps.

 

[silkstone]

i understand it but it's difficult to describe what's happening.
The diagrams show a 2-dimension to 3-dimensional change, when they need to be 3d to 4d to illustrate correctly.

i'm guessing that light doesn't follow the path of the planets as it's going fast enough to skip over that bend in space-time and is only slightly effected.

 

[AphexDreamer]

i understand it but it's difficult to describe what's happening.
The diagrams show a 2-dimension to 3-dimensional change, when they need to be 3d to 4d to illustrate correctly.

i'm guessing that light doesn't follow the path of the planets as it's going fast enough to skip over that bend in space-time and is only slightly effected.

You can't illustrate illustrate 4D lol thats why you see what you see.

Yeah light travels fast enough to not travel around the planet and to just become bent around the planets.

Ignore that other thing I posted I'm tired and didn't make sense. I edited this post with the correct information.

 

[silkstone]

You can't illustrate illustrate 4D lol thats why you see what you see.

Yeah light travels fast enough to just kind of bend around the planets versus just shooting straight past the warp in space-time they have created.

That's my point It possible to understand but not easy to visualize or describe.

 

[AphexDreamer]

That's my point It possible to understand but not easy to visualize or describe.

With that quote you quoted me in I meant to say this.

Yeah light travels fast enough to not travel around the planet and to just become bent around the planets.

Just saying. I think I should get some sleep now.

 

[BazookaJoe]

in the documentaries i have seen, they have theorized that the ability they have
to communicate instantaneously across space, could maybe be used to transmit
information and eventually, maybe - people.

I have not heard time travel theorized, but once you are talking about instantaneous travel
across the universe.... throwing in a bit of time travel doesn't sound SO far off

Well if you look at the "twin Paradox" you have an environment where in travel over radical distances at extraordinary speed results in an effective form of time travel, or at least time displacement as experienced from the viewpoint of one or the other party.

Or indeed the time displacement / travel being experienced by BOTH parties to a factorized degree.

- Now assuming the theory behind the twin paradox IS ABSOLUTELY sound, one needs to stop and think what happens when Quantum tech IS used to "transport" you over incredible distances at virtually (but obviously not totally) instant speeds? (or at least instant by our own perspective of time) would you also be displaced in time? or does the nature of the quantum "data link" somehow evade the "time drag coefficient" by existing outside of traditional space time all together?

Yes, you would no longer be traditional matter as you where transported - but it's still curious to think about...

Could you possibly use quantum teleportation to rapidly bypass the need for extensive physical travel , and thus exploit, to some or other degree, the time drag coefficient discussed in the twin paradox theory, as to effectively affect time travel?

 

[wahdangun]

I don't think you are paying attention to what I am saying.

Photos (Particles that make light) are massless, google it and you will find not one place saying it has mass. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon

Photons follow geodesics, the shortest distance between two points, in other words a straight line. Gravity is caused by the warping of space due to the presence of mass. Therefore it is the path through space in which photons travel that is bent. The photons will travel this bent path making it appear as if light bends.


Say you are sitting on your bed. You know how your bed sinks? Well imagine the stars and planets as sitting on a large bed making it curve down. This effect is known as warping. Replace the bed with Spacetime and you have the warping of spacetime.

Now an objects travelling on the bed will go straight right? Lets say you have someone roll a marble from the flat end of the bed just next to where you are sitting, the marble will follow the path of the sinking part of the bed down to you, where you are sitting.

With really big stuff this can happen to light as well and the bigger the more of an effect (Bending).

if you mean rest-mass then you are correct because they can't exist in stationary state. But the photon indeed have mass limit that is 10^-51 gram. Because photon is some form of energy then its must obey E=M*C^2

i understand it but it's difficult to describe what's happening.
The diagrams show a 2-dimension to 3-dimensional change, when they need to be 3d to 4d to illustrate correctly.

i'm guessing that light doesn't follow the path of the planets as it's going fast enough to skip over that bend in space-time and is only slightly effected.

actually photon didn't travell in 4th dimension. Because the time is stop @ speed of light.

 

[silkstone]

actually photon didn't travell in 4th dimension. Because the time is stop @ speed of light.

I mean a 4th spacial dimension rather than the 4th dimension meaning time.

 

[wahdangun]

Well if you look at the "twin Paradox" you have an environment where in travel over radical distances at extraordinary speed results in an effective form of time travel, or at least time displacement as experienced from the viewpoint of one or the other party.

Or indeed the time displacement / travel being experienced by BOTH parties to a factorized degree.

- Now assuming the theory behind the twin paradox IS ABSOLUTELY sound, one needs to stop and think what happens when Quantum tech IS used to "transport" you over incredible distances at virtually (but obviously not totally) instant speeds? (or at least instant by our own perspective of time) would you also be displaced in time? or does the nature of the quantum "data link" somehow evade the "time drag coefficient" by existing outside of traditional space time all together?

Yes, you would no longer be traditional matter as you where transported - but it's still curious to think about...

Could you possibly use quantum teleportation to rapidly bypass the need for extensive physical travel , and thus exploit, to some or other degree, the time drag coefficient discussed in the twin paradox theory, as to effectively affect time travel?

my theory that quantum "data link" use 5th dimension to travel. Or maybe they use micro wormhole that exist in the fabric of space and time

 

[digibucc]

my theory that quantum "data link" use 5th dimension to travel. Or maybe they use micro wormhole that exist in the fabric of space and time

i'm sorry, but that's not a theory. gravity is a theory, evolution is a theory. no offense, but that's just an idea. a hypothesis if anything. with all the flak "theory" gets, i think it's important to use the term properly.

 

[silkstone]

i'm sorry, but that's not a theory. gravity is a theory, evolution is a theory. no offense, but that's just an idea. a hypothesis if anything. with all the flak "theory" gets, i think it's important to use the term properly.

Mah, it's everyday usage, there's no point really picking apart peoples vocabulary mistakes, you understand what he means.

 

[qubit]

i'm sorry, but that's not a theory. gravity is a theory, evolution is a theory. no offense, but that's just an idea. a hypothesis if anything. with all the flak "theory" gets, i think it's important to use the term properly.

+1 there digibucc

One always gets religious types trying to debunk evolution as "just a theory" and don't want to understand what the word theory means. In scientific language, the meaning is quite different to the ignoramus common man understanding of theory as "just an idea". A scientific theory has lots of hard evidence to justify its existence, such as the theory of Relativity by Einstein, so theories are pretty damn solid.

 

[silkstone]

+1 there digibucc

One always gets religious types trying to debunk evolution as "just a theory" and don't want to understand what the word theory means. In scientific language, the meaning is quite different to the ignoramus common man understanding of theory as "just an idea". A scientific theory has lots of hard evidence to justify its existence, such as the theory of Relativity by Einstein, so theories are pretty damn solid.

His English usage is not wrong... There is more than 1 meaning to the word.. just like the word "fire"
Those religious wackos are just defining "Theory" as #2 for their own good.

Definition

–noun, plural -ries.
1.
a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.
2.
a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
3.
Mathematics . a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory.

 

[digibucc]

it may not be super-important, but i think it matters. hopefully he didn't
take it as me being rude, as that was not my intention.

point taken, let's carry on with friendly scientific discussion

 

[wahdangun]

no offence taken, btw where is the discussion? Are every body tired ?

btw recently I read a couple of paper about spatial 4th dimension, its really interesting concept, so its basically a Wormhole, but why they not named it, 5th dimension?

EDIT: haha I didn't realize it. Since wormhole bypassing time, each other can't co-exist together, so when you enter it time is not valid anymore. So thats why in theory you can go back in time with sligh interference.

 

[silkstone]

no offence taken, btw where is the discussion? Are every body tired ?

btw recently I read a couple of paper about spatial 4th dimension, its really interesting concept, so its basically a Wormhole, but why they not named it, 5th dimension?

Because time is not a spacial dimension, they usually like to put time at the end of the other dimensions as it is different. I imagine that time was labelled the 4th dimension prior to Einstein or string theory. At the moment i believe the word dimension is more synonymous with direction, as time is not a direction is has to be grouped otherwise.

 

[streetfighter 2]

Time travel is cake. I'm doing it right now and it sucks.

Someone call me when the Alcubierre Drive is working.

 

[wahdangun]

Because time is not a spacial dimension, they usually like to put time at the end of the other dimensions as it is different. I imagine that time was labelled the 4th dimension prior to Einstein or string theory. At the moment i believe the word dimension is more synonymous with direction, as time is not a direction is has to be grouped otherwise.

it is a direction just like other dimension tough its just know one direction not like other dimension .
If time is not the 4th dimension then how it can affect each matter differently and that effect based on each matter gravity and speed? The result is Each matter will be treated equally, so even if you have reach speed of light the time will be not slowing down.

btw i hope you see my edited post in my previous post

 

[AphexDreamer]

if you mean rest-mass then you are correct because they can't exist in stationary state. But the photon indeed have mass limit that is 10^-51 gram. Because photon is some form of energy then its must obey E=M*C^2



actually photon didn't travell in 4th dimension. Because the time is stop @ speed of light.

E=mC^2 applies only to ojbects at rest. The equation actually changes when applying it to light.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110103203526AAqn0DC

 

[silkstone]

it is a direction just like other dimension tough its just know one direction not like other dimension .
If time is not the 4th dimension then how it can affect each matter differently and that effect based on each matter gravity and speed? The result is Each matter will be treated equally, so even if you have reach speed of light the time will be not slowing down.

btw i hope you see my edited post in my previous post

Yea, strictly speaking time is the 4th dimension, but it all gets a little confusing when trying to explain an extra spacial dimension over 4. I think we refer to the dimensions in space and in time separately.

Somne guys blog about the 4th dimension, it contains a little explanation but i'm not sure how scientifically accurate it is.
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/melwood/368/time3.html

 

[wahdangun]

E=mC^2 applies only to ojbects at rest. The equation actually changes when applying it to light.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110103203526AAqn0DC

I think its not make sense to measure M-rest of photon. because photon is never existed stationary, so if it zero it could ruin several equation. And since photon behave like wave. Then I can come out with this :

mc^2 = hf => m=hf/c^ 2

 

[wolf]

Yea, strictly speaking time is the 4th dimension, but it all gets a little confusing when trying to explain an extra spacial dimension over 4. I think we refer to the dimensions in space and in time separately.

Somne guys blog about the 4th dimension, it contains a little explanation but i'm not sure how scientifically accurate it is.
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/melwood/368/time3.html

I've always tended to think of time as the 1st dimension, with the others taking respective positions after that. after all (imo) there wouldnt be much to see or do with absolutely no passage of time whatsoever...

could just be me being an absolute retard to, I should help myself to some science books