1. Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

TPU's WCG/BOINC Team

Discussion in 'World Community Grid (WCG)' started by Chicken Patty, Feb 20, 2009.

  1. Arjai

    Arjai

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    2,737 (2.37/day)
    Thanks Received:
    5,130
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    My conclusion, here on my 3317u i5 2c/2t, is a 25% increase in <ncpus>, will run as if nothing changed. any more and the boincmgr starts to enlarge it's footprint on CPU usage and begins the slowdown. it is up to your own math per CPU to figure if more <ncpus> is worth it. My Math per this CPU?

    25% increase. It has been not quite a 25% increase in PPD. Close, I need to have it run a bit longer for it to be a legitimate avg.
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  2. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    14,918 (6.15/day)
    Thanks Received:
    4,574
    Location:
    IA, USA
    So ncpu 5 on your CPU resulted in ~25% higher PPD?
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  3. xvi

    xvi

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2006
    Messages:
    2,928 (0.94/day)
    Thanks Received:
    2,564
    Location:
    Washington, US
    This is a very early report, but my Mobile C2D 1.8GHz laptop appears to be seeing a spike in PPD, although it's hard to tell if it's still on the rise from switching it over to MCM. If the recent increase is correct, it would appear that we're about 10-12% more performance by running 4 WUs on a 2c2t C2D.

    [​IMG]
     
    FordGT90Concept and manofthem say thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  4. TRWOV

    TRWOV

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    4,071 (2.92/day)
    Thanks Received:
    2,772
    Location:
    Mexico
    with so few days it's hard to tell, sudden spikes or falls aren't uncommon. I'd wait for the 28 day average before drawning a conclusion.
     
    xvi, Chevalr1c and Norton say thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  5. Norton

    Norton WCG-TPU Team Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2011
    Messages:
    9,892 (7.85/day)
    Thanks Received:
    24,824
    Agree 100%... there's too much other stuff going on to see what the net positive effect is or if there is any.
     
    Chevalr1c says thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  6. Arjai

    Arjai

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    2,737 (2.37/day)
    Thanks Received:
    5,130
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    Like I mentioned, I need to let it run a bit longer to get a true result but...

    [​IMG]

    This is points, not avg. The rise is from the 21st to today, the longest runtime since the switch.

    Here you can see the results from going 6 <ncpus> to 5<ncpus> with a few other short, 45 minute, tests watching "Performance Monitor".

    Daily Avg.:
    [​IMG]

    A 25% increase, or 5 <ncpus> on my 4 logical core i5 is running well. Much better than 6 was, not a little bit because of the BOINCMGR growing quite a bit, CPU-usage-wise, compared to 5, where the mgr barely budged from the stock usage.

    I suggest you watch the performance monitor at stock for a spell, switch up <ncpus>, watch it again for a spell. I think the key to a performance increase in PPD is keeping the BOINCmgr, below 10% usage.

    Just my observations, feel free to debunk them, as you wish!! :laugh:

    BTW, this is done at 100% CPU on BOINC settings.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2014
    FordGT90Concept says thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  7. Chevalr1c

    Chevalr1c

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,389 (1.95/day)
    Thanks Received:
    1,597
    Location:
    NL, Europe
    It either slows matters down or seems negligible in diff. So forget about it I suggest. Unless the others keep the spikes high even when looking at month-long avgs
     
    FordGT90Concept and ThE_MaD_ShOt say thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  8. ThE_MaD_ShOt

    ThE_MaD_ShOt

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    5,570 (4.35/day)
    Thanks Received:
    4,512
    Location:
    Hi! I'm from the Internet
    Well I can say I haven't seen a rise.
     
    FordGT90Concept says thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  9. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    14,918 (6.15/day)
    Thanks Received:
    4,574
    Location:
    IA, USA
    I think I know what is going on here. If you have BOINC set to use less than 100%, ncpu may cause it go higher than your set limit. If you normally have BOINC set to 60% on a quad core with 5 ncpu, for example:

    CPU[0] = 60% + 40% = 100%
    CPU[1] = 60% = 60%
    CPU[2] = 60% = 60%
    CPU[3] = 60% = 60%

    5 ncpu = 280 / 400 = 70%
    4 ncpu = 240 / 400 = 60%

    difference = 17%

    ncpu can't make BOINC run better than simply setting it to 70% to match it.
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  10. Chevalr1c

    Chevalr1c

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,389 (1.95/day)
    Thanks Received:
    1,597
    Location:
    NL, Europe
    I believe that "17%" should be "10%". Apart from that, good explanation.
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  11. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    14,918 (6.15/day)
    Thanks Received:
    4,574
    Location:
    IA, USA
    70/60*100=16.66 ad infinitum

    70% is 16.67% more than 60%

    Comparing to each other rather than comparing both, individually, to 100%.
     
    Chevalr1c says thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  12. Chevalr1c

    Chevalr1c

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,389 (1.95/day)
    Thanks Received:
    1,597
    Location:
    NL, Europe
    I see the mistake I made: I compared those two (60 and 70) percentages directly which I should not have done.
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  13. ThE_MaD_ShOt

    ThE_MaD_ShOt

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    5,570 (4.35/day)
    Thanks Received:
    4,512
    Location:
    Hi! I'm from the Internet
    I agree. I haven't any positive results from setting a higher ncpu. Actually I have been dropping in points since I have been using it. But i already had my rigs set to 95%.
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  14. Arjai

    Arjai

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    2,737 (2.37/day)
    Thanks Received:
    5,130
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    It does not run "better." It slows each WU down, all this is while at 100%. The trade off is that now there are 5, or one more WU, being processed and if the slowdown is worth that extra WU.

    At 6 WU's, on this computer, the slowdown was not worth the extra WU's. The increase in process time was in hours for each WU. At 5 WU's the slowdown appears to be worth it, as the process time per WU has only risen a few minutes, less than 15min in nearly all cases.

    So, very basically, in an hour and 15 minutes, I have an extra done WU.

    I hope that makes sense. Said another way, I am paying a price that equates to under an hour and 15 mins. for an extra completed WU.

    It seems worth it, to me. Time will tell if it IS worth it.:)

    Sunday night into Monday, I will have a nice long run going, while not connect to WiFi. I will get a real nice snapshot of the process times. The above theory is more than a bit subjective and sometime Monday I will have the numbers worked out.

    Like I mentioned, it seems to be working and increasing my PPD. Considering I have a wholly unreliable schedule of runtime, basically 6-8 hours each night augmented for a few hours before, and/or after work.
    So, Monday should provide a little enlightenment, at least locally. :rolleyes:
    :lovetpu:
    Lab Rat, out! :laugh:
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2014
    Chevalr1c says thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  15. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    14,918 (6.15/day)
    Thanks Received:
    4,574
    Location:
    IA, USA
    So you have it set to use 100%? I can't explain that then. Operating System thread switching should be less efficient than not switching at all. I guess having two run on one core could result in simulating a high priority thread but that doesn't make much sense either. Yup, I don't know.


    Edit: Oh, its not a dedicated cruncher? Maybe it was crunching longer for the periods it was set to ncpu 5.
     
    Chevalr1c says thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  16. james888

    james888

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    5,162 (3.59/day)
    Thanks Received:
    2,486
    @BUCK NASTY, I have not been getting errors on my machine.

    My initial assumptions that this would in work nicely on highly overclocked machines might be wrong. I have actually seen a slight decrease overall the last day or two by only 100-300 ppd I believe. Bucks server going up in temp I think is a prime example this does increase load. So My next hypothesis would be that this would help increase load to the maximum and use every available cpu cycle. This seems true based on bucks increase in temps. In my experience, my 4820k usually never really sat at 100%, it would drop down to as low as 97%, and fluctuate between cores. Since I raised the ncpu number every core/thread has never dropped below 100%. I have boinc set to use 100% of cpu too.

    Ncpu option could maximum ppd, but only add less than 5%. Probably even less than 2%.

    If anyone still feels like testing I believe 50% is much too high still. I think I would say one extra wu for every 3-4 for fast cpus, and probably less for slower cpus. So bucks has a 48 cpu machine but slow cores, so he might 2-5 more wu's.

    I will personally be using this to get that extra 2% or less, because every % matters to me. If you add it, it would see use but not much. You can judge whether or not you see it worth adding. Another use might be running lots of wu's, which will cause them to take longer, so you get badges faster for those into that.




    Next I will try the x64 only option and see what happens! I really don't expect anything, expect possibly having less work to run.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2014
    Chevalr1c says thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  17. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    14,918 (6.15/day)
    Thanks Received:
    4,574
    Location:
    IA, USA
    If you really want to squeeze every cycle out of a computer, I would recommend turning the priority up over using ncpus. By default, WUs run low priority so they don't interfere with other software running. If you use no_priority_change 1, they will run at the same as boincmgr which is most likely normal priority. This will make the computer noticeably less responsive but it should yield a nice PPD gain.

    Wouldn't 2% be inside the margin of error?
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2014
    Chevalr1c, xvi and james888 say thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  18. james888

    james888

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    5,162 (3.59/day)
    Thanks Received:
    2,486
    Practically yes.
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  19. Norton

    Norton WCG-TPU Team Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2011
    Messages:
    9,892 (7.85/day)
    Thanks Received:
    24,824
    Went back to 8 cpu's on the 8350 and the ppd increased so I'll hold off for awhile before trying again.

    *wondering if changing to only one project would improve anything on the next attempt?
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  20. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    14,918 (6.15/day)
    Thanks Received:
    4,574
    Location:
    IA, USA
    I'm just thinking that, if I were to add it, I can see people putting 50 in there on a quad core which would translate to a lot of productivity lost. ncpu is something for people that know what they're doing where BOINC Config Utility is aimed at the every-man: useful configuration options most people aren't aware of. In about 3/4 cases so far, "useful" isn't really applicable. I'm strongly leaning towards leaving it out.
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  21. james888

    james888

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    5,162 (3.59/day)
    Thanks Received:
    2,486
    Sounds good.


    I also had an idea, that I just mentioned to Norton a bit ago.

    Free-dc goes down often. Its a good tool too. What if we TPU WCG team had our own specific free-dc. It only had information about TPU WCG. It hopefully would have more up time, we could have some specific settings that we wanted such as deciding when updates happen. Daily pie and all that could be customized.
    There is a lot of possibility here. I have only thought of the ends, but what about the means? How would we check and use data available from WCG? How would we access, read, or use the data?
    We would need some sort of database, and a front end website. I was thinking maybe we could run it off of a free amazon ec2 instance.
    I am at the limits of my knowledge and ability here. Could someone with more experience maybe provide some insight on the means?

    This might be useful information: https://grid.worldcommunitygrid.org/help/viewTopic.do?shortName=overview#329
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2014
    Crunching for Team TPU
  22. xvi

    xvi

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2006
    Messages:
    2,928 (0.94/day)
    Thanks Received:
    2,564
    Location:
    Washington, US
    So, what you're saying is we should have made a bunch of new accounts on RIT and started talking about how <ncpus>200</ncpus> has increased our PPD by, like, 1000%.
     
    james888, Arjai, manofthem and 2 others say thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  23. Chevalr1c

    Chevalr1c

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,389 (1.95/day)
    Thanks Received:
    1,597
    Location:
    NL, Europe
    I think RIT people are too smart or that.
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  24. manofthem

    manofthem WCG-TPU Team All-Star!

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    7,439 (4.63/day)
    Thanks Received:
    12,271
    Now that the Challenge is over, i'm going to wind down a bit. My "borrowed" pcs will die off, and I'll now finally be giving F@H a shot on my rig(s), likely tomorrow. But since the folding team has helped us quite a bit, I feel like I need to give back to them a little bit.
     
    thebluebumblebee, Chevalr1c and Norton say thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  25. TRWOV

    TRWOV

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    4,071 (2.92/day)
    Thanks Received:
    2,772
    Location:
    Mexico
    I think that donating to Free-DC would be better, that way everybody wins. Otherwise we would need to setup and maintain a server, something that Bok already does.

    Boincstats is a good replacement but I really prefer FDCs layout.
     
    Crunching for Team TPU

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (1 member and 3 guests)

thebluebumblebee

Share This Page