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Very Technical question on R500 R520 core capacitors

Discussion in 'AMD / ATI' started by devilspy, Feb 20, 2007.

  1. devilspy New Member

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    I knwo this isnt exactly a video card but I feel if anyone would know it would be this forum.

    This right here is the back on an xbox 360 ATI r500 core motherboard
    (X02056-010 GPU - ATI Xenos, R-500-Based, 500MHz, w/10MBeDRAM Daughter Die Microsoft, XBOX360, GPU, X02056-010,A-A32/E-C00/B, 05395GHH, AA Taiwan, N26604.00/# BGA)
    [​IMG]

    Basically the 360 uses a r500 gpu core which is simular to r520... it suffers from a bad core connection. Since Xbox 360 is suitable for all ages/ a children's product, they were required to use led free solder which caused many 3 red light errors due to exsessive heatup solder would start to melt and disconnect..

    I tried to fix mine via recommended methods..1000f heatgun..and the capacitor circled in yellow is the one i melted/knocked off, don't have actual image sorry. Now the box wont boot.
    Not satisfied that I now have a $300 paperwieght I started researching ..

    After much research I found the data sheet for the 360
    Motherboard, Bottom CPU Passive Capacitor 256 Ceramic Multilayer - X5R/X7R Brown 0402 2
    Motherboard, Bottom GPU Passive Capacitor 3 Ceramic Multilayer - X5R/X7R Brown 1206 2
    Motherboard, Bottom GPU Passive Capacitor 12 Ceramic Multilayer - X5R/X7R Brown 0805 2
    Motherboard, Bottom GPU Passive Capacitor 3 Ceramic Multilayer - X5R/X7R Brown 0603 2
    Motherboard, Bottom GPU Passive Capacitor 121 Ceramic Multilayer - X5R/X7R Brown 0402 2
    Motherboard, Bottom Display Driver Passive Capacitor 4 Ceramic Multilayer - X5R/X7R Brown 1206 2
    Motherboard, Bottom Display Driver Passive Capacitor 3 Ceramic Multilayer - X5R/X7R Brown 0805 2
    Motherboard, Bottom Display Driver Passive Capacitor 2 Ceramic Multilayer - X5R/X7R Brown 0603 2
    Motherboard, Bottom Display Driver Passive Capacitor 29 Ceramic Multilayer - X5R/X7R Brown 0402 2
    more details here http://www.electronicproducts.com/whatsinside/viewteardown.asp?filename=Xbox_360_web.html

    Found the technical data on the capacitors here (please check) http://www.koaspeer.com/capacitors.asp?part=8 .
    [​IMG]
    But need to know which are the correct one that I'm missing exactly. It seems like they can be variable in a certain size.
    I have searched google for ati technical schematics and couldn't find any, giving part numbers /values of the cores..it should be the same as the core they use on the 360. For thsoe that have r500 /520.

    Any help would be appriciated.
     
  2. WarEagleAU

    WarEagleAU Bird of Prey

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    Basically any diode (which these are often referred too) or Capacitor in this case, most if not all have polarity. If you knocked one off, Im hoping you still have it. Its kind of hard to know which one is missing exactly and Im not sure of any places that sell them diodes/caps for the 360. You could probably search online for a place that sells them and get one that way. Make sure its high quality like Matsushita(sp?) or something like that. Then, make sure you research on how the polarity is supposed to be. (most diodes or caps have a thich colored line <gray, white, etc> at one end and nothing at the other. This is the positive + polarity. Make sure it lines up on the silkscreen white (basically the silkscreen is the white trace outline for the smt part). Hope this helps. You gave alot of information and such, good research; I just hope I helped you a little.

    As far as which one, it depends. based on the pics (or the piece you knocked off) sizes do vary, but most seem to be the same length, just different ohms, amps, voltage, etc. Not too sure which it would be though.
     
  3. W1zzard

    W1zzard Administrator Staff Member

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    re: war eagle's post:
    - a diode and a capacitor are two fundamentally different things
    - those types of capacitors do not have a polarity either

    the problem is that you don't know the capacity of the part you need. the part size should be 0402

    those capacitors on the back are usually for power stabilization and are installed in sizes of 10 nF, 100 nF, 10 uF.

    the box should boot up without one of them. what happens when you press the power button? do you have a short ciruit between the pads?

    did the box work before removing the capacitor? why exactly did you use the heatgun?
     
  4. PacAce New Member

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    Something for everyone?

    :toast: I cant answer as what to do because you should have done more research before actually adjusting the product. But I will say that products that are rated E are problematic and I avoid them. I would never get an E rated anything and I will tell you why. First off there is no real consumer niche known as everyone. This is hard to explain because it has to do with experience in life as well as other stuff. One day I saw a war game with an enticing title (cant remember what it was) but since it was rated E I knew that it had to have weird game characteristics because little kids cant relate to death correctly. They would never actually understand a grenade especially if they're 4 years old. Some concepts should be kept seperate and this would improve the product for adults and mature players. I really dont feel like I've communicated well, but I just steer clear of the big E and think others should also. I didn't know that the XBOX 360 was an E product and I now assume that it has all sorts of quirks and catches. Kids deserve their own stuff too but it just cant have the impact of educated material.
     
  5. devilspy New Member

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    LOL at PacAce. Man whatever your smoking must be some good shit. I do appreciate you taking the time to write the most off topic reply I've read in a while. Kind of reminds me of the drunk uncle at a friend's wedding..who went on to make a totally off topic toast only to try and save it with a joke.."How do you know when your wife is dead?......The sex is great but the dishes are piling up"

    There are quite a few rated E products, among them are water, food, sex, and drugs (whether they be food derived nutrients or extracted chemically in altered pilll form). Alcohol is rated E, as you were probably a product of it, and got plenty of nourishment in the womb.


    And now we return to your regularly scheduled broadcast. 5..4..3..2..1

    WarEagleAU & W1zzard: No unfortunately I didn't realize it was missing till yesterday. The box did work partially but would freeze once you put in a graphically intensive game like Gears Of War. 5-15 min of gameplay is the most you could hope for.

    I'll explain why I heatgunned. The proper way would have been to use a reflow oven, but they cost close if not more than $1000(usd), a $10-$25 heatgun is a cheaper alternative while not exactly proffesional.

    Credit for the photographs goes to megamania2004 of jogos forum http://forum.jogos.uol.com.br/viewtopic.php?t=1048000 and xbox-scene forums

    [​IMG]

    That is the xbox R500 GPU with solder BGA pads.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    "Some dots really BLACK shows the oxidations caused by short-circuits generated on the dots in the GPU."

    [​IMG]


    So basically after a while thats what happens to the solder and the chip stops making 100%contact...you will start getting freezes/graphical glitches etc, hot components crammed inside a mini box with a 3xeon core cpu etc.... and Microsoft only warranties for 12months, after that you have to pay $140 out of pocket, and even then ppl are experiencing the same issues because there is no design change as of yet. Ms is switching to smaller sized cores in the next couple months or so, that might fix the issue .

    I wish I had the skills to do as shown in above photos(maybe someday), but instead the heatgun is the method I settled for, sorry there were better videos but it's all I could find [​IMG] (original method goes to Team ModFreakz)

    More info http://www.ibl-loettechnik.de/english/BGA_Soldering/bga_soldering.html
    [​IMG]
    Dunno how much this costs, but seems simple enough the company is located in germany , they hold a patent on the device.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Too much information, anyway...
    All I need is the exact value of the capacitors to do away with the guessing game. I am good at research but when it comes time to execute... I obviously make mistakes..,then come the fixing troubles. As long as it provides a learning expereince it's worth it though.
    Oh here is a photograph of how the back of my board looks like,
    it is also missing the capacitor to the left of it..
    [​IMG]
    people that have simular issues say that they box does still boot up, but is glitchy. Mine doesn't boot at all but they are only missing one not two.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2007
  6. lemonadesoda

    lemonadesoda

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    You've taken this repair project pretty seriously and done a lot of research. (I've enjoyed learning quite a bit from your links). Good luck getting your system operational.

    If as Wizz says, these are capacitors for the purpose of line stabilisation, then it is usually OK to have the same or larger capacitor as a replacement. You may be able to recycle a "near match" from an old GPU card.

    However, if your problem was only a stabilisation issue, I'm surprised you are not even getting a boot. I suspect there are other damage/issues.

    Look carefully at the board... are there other components that, although not knocked off, are now making bad contacts? Could you have used excessive heating and damaged components internally (can't been seen).

    If using a heatgun... you really need to do it with a digitally controlled temperature... not one of those $10 items. You want to be operating at 220C but the cheap guns can go up to 500C. This would be sufficient to nuke your board. (Delamination of PCB, components, and silicon)
     
  7. Autarkic New Member

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    Um...i know i am new to this forum and all, but would it not be much simpler to buy a dead board off ebay and cannibalize the capacitors from the that? I mean...there would be no issue of capability or if you are using the right one...right?
     

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