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Who'll be the better president?

Discussion in 'TPU Frontpage Polls' started by W1zzard, Oct 1, 2008.

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Who'll be the better president?

Poll closed Oct 6, 2008.
  1. Barack Obama

    1,290 vote(s)
    57.9%
  2. John McCain

    333 vote(s)
    14.9%
  3. But I want George W. Bush

    177 vote(s)
    7.9%
  4. Don't care

    429 vote(s)
    19.2%
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  1. Palit_Guy

    Palit_Guy Palit Representative

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    @DaMulta

    Please stop saying stupid things like blowing up towns because there was a bomb in the vicinity. Seriously. Are you drunk?

    How about this? Some mailboxes in your area get M80s tossed in them and blown up. So the police react by coming along and arresting everyone in the area including you. They do this because there's a 90% probability that the culprits live in the area where the explosions took place.

    How would you like to explain to your boss that you were arrested for something you didn't do and had nothing to do with whatsoever? You wouldn't because the police don't operate like that. It doesn't make any sense.

    The only thing it would cause is people to go vigilante and take out whoever they thought did it. You can only hope the vigilantes get it right though.
     
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  2. DaMulta

    DaMulta My stars went supernova

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    Just to add Tatty.

    One of my good friends that is now back. Did a tour in Afghanistan(He believed we should not of respected the boarders at all)that affected him all the time. They could not do anything about it.
    He does say that the people in Afghanistan will work with you, but the people in Iraq do not work with you. Because of that he said it is a total different war.

    He also did two tours in Iraq, one time living thru a IED blast(can not hear out of one ear now)He has seen some crazy things such as someone going into a school gym and blowing themselves up and killing all the kids that were there. He seen that, and I know that will always be there with him.
    He believes that we should of never of backed down, and just pushed harder till they understood to completely stop what they are doing.

    patrol the streets on foot is something he clearly says does not work on them.

    He came back around the start of this year.
     
  3. DaMulta

    DaMulta My stars went supernova

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    My war talk is now over.

    It is a very touchy subject, even more than politics because it deals with real people and real lifes.
     
  4. newconroer

    newconroer

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    It depends on what you cut. Eight hundred and some bases around the world? One trillion dollars a year? Necessary? Absolutley not.

    That kind of cutting would not weaken the military, it would make stronger, because some of the money could go into a stronger national defense, instead of an over-zealous and costly offense.


    The view the world has of America, is noone but America's fault. Sure, the Middle East is full of twisted nut-jobs, and the Asians are plenty bizzare... but they've always been like that. The WORLD has changed itself, and America has a large part in that unfortunatley.

    Regardless, having military bases in other countries who clearly don't want them there, isn't helping anything, and all the while it's costing the u.S. lives and money.


    WWII and Japan was entirely different. A WAR! was going on, a WORLD WAR, and it was a military/strategic plan (though not a good one) by Japan, during a WORLD WAR. America did the right thing and ended that portion of it quickly, with an atomic bomb, but military campaigns in the far east did not end on that note, because it was a WAR.

    Iraq is not a WAR; it's just a bloodier version of Desert Storm, which was not a war, but rather a political wag-the-dog.


    It's pretty simple to me. Get the troops out, cut the spending and decide whether to bomb the whole place, or just leave it be.


    Your friend apparently, despite all his first hand 'expertise,' in the Middle East, knows nothing of Middle Eastern zeal and politics.
    Pushing harder will only make them push back harder. They have only ideals to live for, not mortality, or families, or shiny precious automobiles in their four car garages on some Malibu lane parkway.

    I remember this picture several years ago, of these badass Abrams tanks rolling down a dusty road in the Middle East, and some little kid, probably less than ten years old, was dressed in rebel garb, whilst holding a sling-shot with a rock in it, aimed at the tank. Now...this is a bit of an exaggeration, but not by too much. If little kids are willing to run out and pull a David vs. Goliath, against a military that's supposedly trying to 'help' by spreading Democracy, than you know something's not right.
     
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  5. Palit_Guy

    Palit_Guy Palit Representative

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    Newconroer- These are some very valid points about the religious nature of this war on the Iraq side. Definitely a nasty business when you combine religion, politics and gun powder.
     
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  6. pepsi71ocean New Member

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    No it wouldn't not cut out on offense, or defense, but it would KILL the ECONOMY of that COUNTRY, and then when we pull out of these countries that have built and catered to the needs of these bases, their economies will tank and go to hell, then they will blame us for that.

    Plus i don't think that the Germans o0r the Turks, or the Saudis hate American Military Bases in their countries, or most if not all the rest. What about South Korea, or Taiwan? Those countries are grateful for having screaming gun-ho Marines in there.


    What countries are these? And don't you dare say Iraq and Afghanistan, because they do not count since these countries are currently at war against terrorism.


    Yes, WW2 was different, because it was a "real war" not some made up political crap. This is where we as the world have lost it. We fight these political wars(or police actions), which by their nature are un-winnable. War must be fought, and i will tell you this, i have friends over there, and some of them admit that we go "over the fence" to kill some of these terrorist, because regular line troops can't, because they are over the line in the sand. Hell the terrorist can shoot and kill American troops on the border, and we can't fire back because the terrorist are on the wrong side. This is the political crap is what separates police actions from wars.

    You are Right!, Iraq and Afghanistan are not wars, they are police actions. Because if they were wars we would have kicked the shit out of every country in the middle east.

    Massive force will leave to victory, yes you might kill some terrroist, and that creates new terrorist, but then again do you really think that these countries in the middle east don't have control of the terrorism. Iran and Lebanon fund Terrorist orginazation called Hesbolla, and that terrorist organization has been at war against Israel for over 30 years. Israel went into Lebanon and kicked the shit out of them, and they were winning until the U.N. got involved and said "Bad Israel". Hell i rounded up 40+ friends of mine who are hard core, and we formed "The America Brigade". All of us are knowledgeable in Tae Kwundo, Judo, and Akido, and we all are marksmen and hunters by nature. We were going to go over there, and go into the parts of Lebanon where Israel couldn't. Hired mercenaries we wanted to be, but unfortunately by the time that we got things set up the war was over. wire and do the dirty work, because we felt that the U.N. had no place to get involved with this.

    And the U.N. is doing the same stunt now, I really think that the U.N. Back terrorism, because if the U.S. doesn't get this treaty signed our troops will be stuck in their barracks after December 31, and what good does dead weight have in an unstable country, all this does is reinforce the worlds view of how we ruined Iraq.

    Agreed .
     
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  7. DaMulta

    DaMulta My stars went supernova

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    O know I said I would stop with the war talk....

    I myself just don't see that being the right thing to do personally.



    U did have some interesting points that you did make.


    It is really bad that I and everyone else that is talking about this, is that it's about real people. People are not numbers, we like to think that sometimes, but that's untrue.

    For that I do feel bad about talking about war, how it should be done, how we should kill people and all the rest of it.

    It is never a nice thing to talk about, it's a very hard subject, and a very evil subject. It's very horrible that we human beings do these things to one another instead of finding common ground to share.

    More so today, because never in the history of man could we talk, travel, and learn things about each other like we have been able to do for the last 100 years. We should be able to learn from our past, and understand that evil is evil and evil is never the way to act to another person.
     
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  8. pepsi71ocean New Member

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    I agree, and it truly is a shame no doubt, however mankind is belligerent by nature. And while world peace will most likely never exist, the horrors of genocide and war have not disappeared either.

    I feel that it is necessary to point out a good quote form the late Josef Stalin; "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic."

    Unfortunately, we as a world have become more weary of things, and we are hypersensitive to how the world views us, or how one country views another actions. In an era where we would be one united empire, and we should be pulling our resources to colonies other planets, not other countries. We should be expanding to other planets, extending the Human race to Mars, and the moon, and we should be developing hyper transport to beam ourselves between distant stars, instead of nuclear bombs the size of a briefcase.

    But, i guess that this will never be true, so as long as one caveman beat up the other caveman for his extended living space for his growing family. However, despite me looking like a warmonger, i feel that the next great move to colonize and attack should be under the banner and flag of the world, and not on some small country.
     
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  9. newconroer

    newconroer

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    And the alternative is to what?; stay there under the premise that they might get upset that American retreat resulted in a fluxuation in their economy? Come on, how long must it go on. The forefathers WARNED emphatically about entangling alliances, and TODAY is the proof in the pudding. Your example is the proof in the pudding...

    Yes, America is ass deep in a lot of things they shouldn't be, but while all that's going on, Americans are dying, and the AMERICAN ECONOMY is going to shit. We don't want to see anyone suffer, but America does not have a responsibility to anyone but thesmelves.
    It's time to pull the plug.

    No, obviously some countries rather enjoy the presences and 'protection,' but why should they get it? Again, not America's responsibility. Maybe in a future world where everything is a 'hands-across-the-world' utopia, and there's only a small amount of 'baddies,' left, then America can 'help' out others; but for now, they need to turn their attention to themselves.

    You got babies found in garbage cans, teenage mothers with four kids on welfare and no future, disabled vets dying in the gutters, kids taking guns to school, continous poverty, a rising inflation, a rising unemployment, a massive immigration issue, an overbearing income tax, a dwindling housing market...shall I go on? And you're supposed to care about some people across the ocean?





    Agreed.



    Well I hope your aim is better than your martial arts, because Tae and Judo are not going to hurt anyone. No offense, but martial 'arts' result in this > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BLQjntCXz3Q
    Hehe.

    Though, you know, the mercenary idea isn't bad, but given the political climate today, wouldn't you just be causing more problems?


    @DaMulta

    In my heart of hearts, no, I wouldn't want to see them bombed. A lot of people would say that because America left, they'd rally together for an attack, but if America focuses her defense, you really think the Middle East, or anyone for that matter, can mass an attack against the u.S.???

    I don't.

    So I'm fine with just letting them be, let them blow themselves all to hell.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2008
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  10. pepsi71ocean New Member

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    Agreed, but then again we started this mess in iraq, and we should see it through till its done.

    I would support the Government taking orphans and kids off the street, and then putting them into a government run military school system with housing, and when they turn 18 have them enter the military, as a form of back pay. Thus we kill many birds with one stone, Fix the unadaptive of kids, kids in the garbage, crack parents with kids on welfare.

    In either case a draft will help straightening out the kids of today. Not to mention cut down on health care costs because the draft would reduce obesity in children.


    All tae and Judo have more to do with disarming, and throwing then actual H2H. Akido is H2H. I learned Judo and Akido because they go hand in hand. Judo teaches you to flow with the enemies movementum, and in the case of self defense it works, i can throw off a knife attack and then use Akido to disarm the person and use the knife against him if needed.

    Well, we were all gun ho about it at the time, because we felt that Israel was doing the right thing, and that the UN was shutting them down because Israel was being to "forceful".

    Personally, it doesn't matter, the Middle east was full of savages like the terrorist 100 years ago, and 100 years from now that's all that will exist, and they an all destroy themselves for all i care. The only reason the middle east is so important is because of oil, and 100 years from now when we drive on electric and not gas, those head chopping savages will be left in the dust.
     
  11. farlex85

    farlex85 New Member

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    I'm curious as to what exactly is the condition that will validate the Iraq war as "won." I keep seeing people arguing we should finish the war and such, but no one seems to know what that really means. And the draft would not at all work w/ a war like this. You can't simply have a draft when half of the country (or more than half) disagrees w/ the war. It may have worked immediately after 9/11, but I think you've played too many video games. :D You can't simply force millions into battle for your ideals, at least it's harder to get away w/ these days.
     
  12. pepsi71ocean New Member

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    Well, i agree, at this point a draft won't fix this issue, nor would it work at thus point.

    Winning the war is seeing a stable country and then pulling out. A stable country where the Iraqi people can govern, and protect themselves from Terrorist and terror bombings. That is what i call a successful Police Action, IMO.
     
  13. SK-1

    SK-1

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    :(no more orbiting space stations with big-ol nuke-missiles :(
     
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  14. farlex85

    farlex85 New Member

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    Yeah I mean stability is the goal, I fear it's a bit abstract though, b/c as you said they have been fighting for hundreds of years and will continue fighting for 100 more. It could take decades for Iraq to recuperate the damage caused from the war, and even then, terrorist attacks will still happen. Rebuild for sure, but simply stationing troops and and fighting an endless battle won't likely do much good. Diplomacy and economics are needed here, not just armed forces.
     
  15. pepsi71ocean New Member

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    Oh, i must have not clarified that right. I meant 100 years ago the west never even knew the Middle East was anything, all that it was it was was a Colony of Britain. Oil had nothing to do with the middle east, until the 1930's. And what I'm saying is 100 years from now, the middle east will be nothing but sand and bones. The world will move on from Oil, and then the middle east will not longer be important. And so economic instability will rock the middle east, and they then can turn back to savages and fight for what ever.

    EDIT:The three factions of Islam have been fighting since the death of the first prophet. And that has been about 1,500 years. This will continue on until the end of time, part of the reason that this is going on is because no two factions can agree with anything from ruling government, to promoting laws. And so only Dictatorships flourish in the middle east, because one faction is in control.

    Diplomacy and economics will help promote growth, while armed force will promote stability, which indirectly helps promote growth. Its a hand in hand process basically.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
  16. farlex85

    farlex85 New Member

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    I could have just misunderstood. My point is to attempt nation building in an area as unstable as the middle east, where terrorism is a given, and to pour as much resources as we have into a sledgehammer for an indeterminate period of time is just not going to work imo. A scalpel (less expensive, diplomacy) properly used perhaps could, if not then we should leave the damn rock alone. Staying until it's "over" (although in a way it may not be for a long, long time) could significantly cripple our nation, in more ways than one.
     
  17. btarunr

    btarunr Editor & Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I think we're through with this war talk. By the way, when do results come out?
     
  18. pepsi71ocean New Member

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    Results?
     
  19. farlex85

    farlex85 New Member

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    Why are we through w/ the war talk? We aren't through w/ the war. :D If all goes as planned late Tuesday (late in the US, early Wed over there) should have pretty much wrapped up.
     
  20. Triprift

    Triprift

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    Thats one thing ive never understood with humanity pretty much all the conflicts in the world happen because its always been like that. The Middle East, Northern Ireland, America with other countries and many other conflicts. No one seems to say hey this is pointless why dont we stop its just insane to me. Then again i do live in Oz were all we can do is turn on our tellies and wach the insanity unfold on tv during the new reports and be so thankful i live where i am.
     
  21. pepsi71ocean New Member

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    I know what you mean, its the same with me and the Presidential Elections.

    But you can't always blame America, you must blame Britain, France, Germany, Russia, Prussia, ROME, CHINA, Japan, almost every country has gone through an aggressive stage in the history of its lineage. Its just that now is Americas turn, so there is nothing that can be done about that.
     
  22. DaMulta

    DaMulta My stars went supernova

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    They want PALiT Guy as President now, and me as VP

    My plan could not see the light of day now:shadedshu

    :toast:


    ----
    Ok everyone knows that I'm against the war in Iraq(or should know that), but I do go along with it. There are some of reasons why I do go along with it.

    Pulling up what I posted so I don't look like a total ass about not caring about those people.......I do, but they are not us and are very different than us.




    OK Palin


    The only time I have really looked into her was her debate she had with Biden. This is how I feel about her.

    And then there is this
    I should/could look into her more. If she does become VP I will do so.




    This thread is so good to just look back and read. There is so much information here to learn, and change your views on certain issues if you take the time and read this whole thread....
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
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  23. btarunr

    btarunr Editor & Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    You're not through with the elections either, so spend this time talking about last-minute turnarounds, how the polls are shaping out, convince eachother to vote on either sides...basically make better use of your time on this thread before it has served its purpose...that's when results come out. After that, this won't be around to become a "Who [would've] been the better president?" thread.
     
  24. farlex85

    farlex85 New Member

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    It's another one of humanity's complex contradictions. Nobody wants war, yet everyone fights. :confused: I think more than anything it's nature become force of habit. People truly believe there is no other way for some reason. It will take a long, long, long time for that to change, or something terribly and drastically uncomfortable to make it change.

    Well, I don't think anybody's mind is changing at this point. Democrats will vote democrat, republicans will vote republican, dead, animated, and other forms of voter fraud will take place, ect. Obama will probably win barring the republicans out-frauding the democrats this time. And, technically, by arguing against the war, I am supporting Obama's stance on the issue.
     
  25. pepsi71ocean New Member

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    I don't think this would become a who would be a better pres thread, simply put it, no matter who gets into office were screwed, regardless weather its McCain or Obama.

    Its what man does best. Unfortunately it will be around for ever.
     

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