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Who'll be the better president?

Discussion in 'TPU Frontpage Polls' started by W1zzard, Oct 1, 2008.

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Who'll be the better president?

Poll closed Oct 6, 2008.
  1. Barack Obama

    1,290 vote(s)
    57.9%
  2. John McCain

    333 vote(s)
    14.9%
  3. But I want George W. Bush

    177 vote(s)
    7.9%
  4. Don't care

    429 vote(s)
    19.2%
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  1. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

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    Bin Laden was as much as an ally as he ever was going to be back in the 1980's. What turned bin Laden towards American hatred is the Saudis going to the USA for aide in dealing with Kuwait rather than bin Laden's rogue army. That was around 1990. The train just started rolling in GHWB's Presidency and it came to full throttle throughout Clinton's Administration. GHWB had no way of knowing bin Laden wasn't just a loony speaking his mind though. The proof came in 1993 and repeated with embassy bombings. GHWB, therefore, had little opportunity to stop it and doing so would have been preemptive (there is nothing he could cite as a reason to strike). Clinton had many opportunities and plenty of evidence to back it up but failed to act. When the presidency changed to GWB, terrorism wasn't even mentioned. It was not until the Cole bombing that terrorism became a subject of concern--but only mildly. Bin Laden went into hiding before the Cole attacks and remains in hiding ever since. 9/11 obviously brought the issue front and center.

    So... if we look at the bin Laden-USA history, Clinton and GWB receive some blame. The crucial difference between them is the Clinton administration knew where bin Laden slept and GWB administration did not.

    But, theoreticals aren't really going to accomplish anything so... meh.



    I agree. Education systems are only there to establish a base line of facts. Education systems, thus far, have failed to incite research and exploration which is the makings of a "genius."

    It should also be noted that mostly states decide their curriculum. No Child Left Behind Act was an attempt to make sure all students are at least competent.
     
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  2. SK-1

    SK-1

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    Things must be different still, " over the pond". I "Mix" as you say with wealthy people about every day. I do 60 in a good year and the guy I most like to fish with is a multi-millionaire.(and a former boss)
    I game with 3, six-digit income producers and my wife takes care of 2 elderly VERY rich people. We mix-a-lot:)

    I do know snobbish rich ppl but they have never employed me and I would never socialize with them.:toast:
     
  3. TUngsten

    TUngsten

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    1. Failure - ask any teacher
    2. Subjugation of constitutional rights of all Americans? Failure
    3. ? mega failure
    4. pre-9/11 idea conceived because there was nothing else going on, now fail
    5. failure of epic proportions

    Excellence job pointing out the failures of 8 years of the Bush administration. There are certainly dozens more, most especially the War on Terror = epic failure.

    Most of the things you list came when the republicans controlled the house and senate as well.

    I agree with Thoughtdisorder. Register Independent.

    Listen to NPR too, for good measure :) The most independent, unbiased source of news in the country. paid for by the people. Voluntarily.
     
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  4. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

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    That is a "noteworthy" test. Not a "success" test. Whether you like Bush or not, his Presidency is going down in history with a lot of pages dedicated to him and his terms.
     
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  5. Tatty_One

    Tatty_One Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Really, thats kind of inward looking, internationally it's just the opposite, most countries in Europe for example think he is inept, has lacked any kind of foreign policy and can barely read and string coherant sentances together, he is very much seen as a joke sad to say ( I could go aforward with a lot more than that, for example, the fact that Blair held him up internationally for 5 years), now he certainly will go down in history for that......I doubt very much for little else, unless of course you really want to delve deeply into disaster management, the nightmare aside which was 9/11, think New Orleans, think of one of the biggest natural tradegies in your countries history, think blunder after blunder from your leadership......again, good history, we wont even go anywhere near wars and conflict!

    Having said all that, I dont see those improvements in your day to day life you may have had from his 8 years but from much of what I read, things have pretty much slid downhill since 2001? Is that not true?
     
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  6. DaedalusHelios

    DaedalusHelios

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    Got a source on that? Thats alot of accusations.

    I know this isn't the crazy picture thread but I thought this was a funny picture:

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Bigjohn

    Bigjohn

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    In what part of your imagination?
    This is GOVERNMENT DATA... trust your government.... they're here to (take all your money and try to help themselves stay in power by giving it to others...) help.

    Code:
    Table 2
    Congressional Budget Office data, 2005
    			Share of federal 		Share of Total
    			Income taxes 			Pre-tax Income
    Top 1% 				39% 			18%
    Top 5% 				61% 			31%
    Top 10% 			73% 			41%
    Top 20% 			86.3% 			55%
    Second Highest 20% 		13.1% 			20%
    [COLOR="Blue"]Middle 20% 			4.4% 			13%[/COLOR]
    [COLOR="Red"]Second Lowest 20%	 	-0.9% 			8.5%
    Bottom 20% 			-2.9% 			4.0%[/COLOR]
    
    CBO data also shows that the middle 20% of income earners, the true middle
    class, paid only 4.4% of federal income taxes. [COLOR="Red"]The bottom 40% of income earners actually paid a
    negative 3.8% of federal income taxes. That means they got money back on net from the federal
    income tax system, rather than paying money.[/COLOR]
    
     
  8. Bigjohn

    Bigjohn

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    In who's figment of imagination? Oh, that's right... Karl Marx...

    A long way to showing how little you UNDERSTAND.

    Regarless of what you "try to spread around", there will always be a "bottom 20%"...:ohwell:
     
  9. Bigjohn

    Bigjohn

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    dude... Robin Hood is a myth... a STORY.
    And, there was Government... you might have heard that England was, for quite some time, A KINGDOM... and without government, how on earth was there a Sheriff?
     
  10. Bigjohn

    Bigjohn

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    Those who fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.

    Communism failed last time someone tried, but Obama will be so much better at it? :roll:
     
  11. Polaris573

    Polaris573 Senior Moderator

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    Osama was an ally the United States used to fight the Soviets when they invaded Afghanistan. We provided weapons (stinger missiles to shoot down Mi-24 Helicopters), and training from U.S. special forces to him and his insurgents fighting the Soviets. Afghanistan rebels were able to eventually repel the Soviet invaders and their invasion of Afghanistan is believed by many to have contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union. This is well known information, if you want more facts I suggest you research that part of history yourself. We can't always be finding links for you.
     
  12. SK-1

    SK-1

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    WOW. Its called common knowledge in these parts:wtf:
     
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  13. phanbuey

    phanbuey

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    "Soviet invaders and their invasion of Afghanistan is believed by many to have contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union" Not really, it was the rotting economic core within the union. The Soviet Union collapsed economically, not militarily. But it's definitely true that Osama was US trained and armed as were his mujhadeen; the soviets had so few economic resources that they ended up sending disgruntled, undertrained, and under-equipt 18 year old kids to fight.


    Obama is not a communist. Communist ideals spread and thrive in environments where there is a huge gap between the ritch and the average (ahem). By balancing the wealth, Obama is preserving capitalism rather than promoting an environment where the majority poor are getting progressively more pissed off at the system. Wait till 80% of the American population has no healthcare and live in poverty, AND HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE. THEN you will see some communist ideals.
     
  14. Polaris573

    Polaris573 Senior Moderator

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    I never said it was the one and only reason. Still you do realize that wars cost money do you not? Can you not make the connection between spending large amounts of money on an unnecessary and futile war and its damage to an already unstable economy? All Soviet forces were finally withdrawn in 1989 with over 14,00 soldiers dead and only a handful of years before the collapse of the Soviet Union. Yet you're telling me that it did not contribute in any significant way to the collapse?
     
  15. phanbuey

    phanbuey

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    Yeah I am. We were bleeding money since the 50's. The union would have collapsed with or without the war. I was one of the kids that waited in the breadlines. The problems ran much deeper than some wag the dog war that was designed to attract attention away from the misery of every day life. The loss of the Afghan war was a symptom of the collapse, not the other way around.

    "The command-administrative model of war-communism hobbled economic development..." <read that. I'm not being a dick, im just disagreeing with your assesment. The war was insignificant to the ultimate collapse. It acted as a minor catalyst at most - and its loss was a symptom of the collapse not a cause of it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2008
  16. Polaris573

    Polaris573 Senior Moderator

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    Over 100,000 soldiers deployed to a foreign nation for 10 years, with 14,000 dead, the loss of 147 tanks, 1315 APCs, 114 Airplanes, 333 Helicopters, and returning disillusioned veterans did in no way hasten the collapse of the Soviet Union?
     
  17. Bigjohn

    Bigjohn

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    I'm sure it did, but the "government managed economy" had a lot more to do with it...
     
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  18. Polaris573

    Polaris573 Senior Moderator

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    Please read my posts, it feels futile to discuss this if you guys don't. Never once did I say or imply that it was "the biggest reason" or "the only reason", only that it was a contributing factor.
     
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  19. SK-1

    SK-1

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    Plus, I believe the US had influenced this managed economy to a GREAT degree by doing what we did back then...
     
  20. phanbuey

    phanbuey

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    I think you fail to understand that this is not "the straw that broke the camel's back." It was a camel who showed everyone that it had a broken back by not being able to even carry a straw.

    First 25,000 died. but also:

    1. 100000 soldiers is nothing. Literally, less than a fraction of the forces that could have been deployed - think for one second... The Red Army. US has more than that in Iraq and the Russians had a conscription based force and were next door to Afghanistan.

    2. The Soviets occupied afghanistan just as Bush occupied Iraq, but the economy was long out of money. 100000 soldiers is nothing for an occupation. They had won initially, but could not unite/oppress the country, and Gorbachev grew impatient with the results.

    Saying that it hastened the collapse is a cause-effect fallacy. Did it hasten it? Yes, but not for the reasons you argue. Only in the sense that it made it more aparant what a shitty situation the Union was in, rather than contributing to the shittiness of that situation. Glastnost and Perestroika's effects, as well as the percieved leniency of Gorby greatly overshadowed any effects of the afghan war.

    The "contributing factor" is an argument in shades of gray. Each one of us can argue from our perspective and be completely correct. ITs just that from my point of view, the Afghan war did not contribute in a significant way to the collapse.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2008
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  21. Polaris573

    Polaris573 Senior Moderator

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    Okay, I think it's silly to think it had no effect and you think it's a silly idea that it did. I don't think we're going to get anywhere here. So I think it would be best just to get this thread back on topic. Good discussion though.
     
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  22. WhiteLotus

    WhiteLotus

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    aye, i agree :toast:

    So this is the Second time McCain has ran for President? I did not know that at all, learn something new every day. As much as i do favour Obamas "reality" thinking, i can't but think that a guy with much more experience would do a better job.

    That's fair enough, i guess a better question i should have put was "how do you know such a person?"

    I d apologise for any rudeness

    Actually read the graph, if equal distribution is successful, then there will be no bottom or top 25%, every one will have the same. This is very "communist" like though which we all know on paper works well, but in real life on a grand scale seems to fail.

    Oh and btw, I sit on the fence. There are both great points in Keynesian and neo-classical economics. The best for the economy is to use the best bits of both.

    oh and also I have studied both micro and macro economics, so yea i do understand quite a bit about economics.

    I do know for sure that whoever becomes President is going to have the worst time trying to reduce the tidal wave of crapness that the US economics has become - we haven't seen the worst of it yet. And this will be down to the mistakes that the Bush administration has made, whoever wins will inevitably get shafted.
     
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  23. Bigjohn

    Bigjohn

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    Yeah... FAIR... that's what we need... FAIRness... LOL
    Trickle down is the only thing that does work.
    Here is a "story" to help all understand.

    Bob has a good deal of money.... makes MORE than the 250k that obama want's to use as his rape limit... Bob has a nice house, bob has 3 cars and a boat. Let's say that Bob makes, for ease of calculating... 300,000. Under the current tax plan (Bush), Bob's after tax $ is (for round numbers), about 200,000. This is good for bob. Bob hires a gardning service to keep up his lawn. Bob has a detail service come to his house every week and clean his cars, and docks his boat in a slip at the lake. Bob likes to replace his car every 3 years too, and he's investing.

    Along comes herr presidente obama...

    Bob's income is still 300,000, but herr presidente obama allows the bush tax cuts to expire, remove the cap on social security taxes, and now BOB is taking home about 150,000.

    Well, Now, Bob's a calculating man. Bob still wants to save and invest for his future, so he starts looking for ways to save that 50k that the government is now taking from him... so, he stops having his gardener come every week, now only every other week. And he decides to keep his cars for 4 years... and they don't need to be washed but every other week... and that expensive boat slip? Nope. Put the boat on the trailer and haul it back and forth - or just sell it outright... and so on.

    How does that HURT the economy? Well, by raping BOB, he can no longer afford to pay Juan the gardener.. Juan just had his income from BOB cut in half. The car dealer will now sell fewer cars to guys like BOB... and the boat slip guy just lost a customer too. Perhaps bob won't remodel the cabinets in his kitchen either... and the carpets can last 'just a while longer'....

    But of course, the government know better what to do with Bob's money.... <NOT> After all, Bob was only 'spending it extravagantly' on selfish things... now, the government can use it to give food stamps... to Bob's gardener!


    So you know this then:
    Among the more prominent elements of his tax proposal, Senator Obama would end the Bush tax cuts and allow the top two tax rates to return to 36 and 39.6 percent. He also would allow personal exemptions and deductions to be phased out for those with income over $250,000. The real kicker, though, is that Senator Obama would end the Social Security payroll tax cap for those over $250,000 in earnings. (The cap is currently set at $102,000.) These individuals will then face a tax rate of 15.65 percent from payroll taxes and the top income tax rate of 39.6 percent for a combined top rate of over 56 percent on each additional dollar earned. (Source:http://www.heritage.org/research/Taxes/wm1973.cfm)


    Umm -
    This shit storm mess was created by jimmy Carter, the democrats, and persisted under clinton, and the fantastic leadership of the Democrat controlled congress....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiEWCnpNnBQ&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3no2A4&feature=related
     
  24. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

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    Again, I didn't say he had a good Presidency (I'd argue that no President ever has as there is always opposition). I am saying he has authored a great deal of history for the better or for the worst.


    Personally, it is not true and I won't delve into details. Bush was alright. There was better (GHWB) and there was worse (Herbert Hoover).


    You can find your own sources. I'm not going to waste time proving something I know to be factual.


    I wouldn't call them undertrained nor underequiped. A lot of military's around the world have a lot of 18 year olds enlisted. The reason they withdrew was mostly because of the guerilla tactics used by Afghans and the harsh terrain of the country. Had we not given them the weapons to take down helicopters and destroy tanks, they would have been crushed but, with those weapons, they could pick them off as fast as the Soviet Union could bring them in.

    Edit: They also refuse to surrender...


    Who said he was a communist? He's a socialist running on a progressivism agenda...

    Communism <- Socialism <- [Progressivism] <- [Liberalism] <- Capitalism

    The Democratic party of the USA was Liberalist until about 1999 when they shifted towards progressivism (Source: Paul Begala, Democratic Strategist). Obama, being about the most left-leaning Senator in the US Senate coupled with his "spread the wealth" statements puts smack-dab on socialist. Even McCain is using the word "socialist" to attack Obama on the issue of taxes now. I don't remember the last time that happened in an election. It's scary...
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2008
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  25. Tatty_One

    Tatty_One Super Moderator Staff Member

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    The Sherrif was appointed by the King himself....thats King as in KINGdom, this country had no parliment until the 12th century......ohhhh and by the way, he was a REAL person and did exisit, at least in the form of Loxley, he was also actually part on the nobility himself.

    http://www.parliament.uk/about/history/institution.cfm

    Edit: I should have added that Robin Hood "the myth" is not necessarily the same as "Robin of Loxley", there is no absolute evidence they were the same person as in real person related to mythical person if you get my meaning.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2008

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