1. Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Who'll be the better president?

Discussion in 'TPU Frontpage Polls' started by W1zzard, Oct 1, 2008.

?

Who'll be the better president?

Poll closed Oct 6, 2008.
  1. Barack Obama

    1,290 vote(s)
    57.9%
  2. John McCain

    333 vote(s)
    14.9%
  3. But I want George W. Bush

    177 vote(s)
    7.9%
  4. Don't care

    429 vote(s)
    19.2%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. TUngsten

    TUngsten

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,044 (0.36/day)
    Thanks Received:
    64
    Location:
    CT, USA
    This thread is so full of misinformation and ridiculous claims...

    Nobody here seems to care that McCain's so-called health policy will TAX everyone's employee-based health benefits.

    http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/health_taxes21.pdf

    For most taxpayers, McCain’s tax credit quickly becomes a tax increase. McCain’s new tax credit grows only at the rate of inflation (about 2 percent a year), while current tax subsidies keep up with health insurance premiums (about 7 percent a year). As a result, the value of the tax credit quickly falls behind rising health care costs, meaning
    most households with employer coverage today would soon see a tax increase.

    Many middle-class households under the McCain plan pay higher taxes immediately. Households with employer-sponsored coverage, higher incomes, and higher premiums are the most likely to see immediate tax increases. The largest tax increases fall on middle-class families, which pay the highest combined payroll and income tax rates.
     
    farlex85 says thanks.
  2. Tatty_One

    Tatty_One Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    16,840 (5.21/day)
    Thanks Received:
    2,616
    Location:
    Worcestershire, UK
    Fortunatly I'm not "everyone" ;).......you are right though, I have found that some of our Republican friends can be very good at overlooking anything negative about their candidate but I suppose thats not uncommon.....just take a look at the Intel/AMD and NVidia/ATI threads! :eek: (and my Avitar!)
     
    WarEagleAU says thanks.
  3. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    13,947 (6.25/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3,785
    Location:
    IA, USA
    In an effort get get employers out of the insurance business. People should be able buy "group" insurance from a national pool, as individuals or families--the way it should be in a capitalist economy.

    There's more to it than that. The campaign updated the site on the topic of healthcare:
    http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/19ba2f1c-c03f-4ac2-8cd5-5cf2edb527cf.htm

    I quote:
     
    WarEagleAU says thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  4. TUngsten

    TUngsten

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,044 (0.36/day)
    Thanks Received:
    64
    Location:
    CT, USA
    Providing a McCain website as evidence is as useless as me providing an Obama site to dispute the facts...

    You can make as long a list as you want of all sorts of things that the plan doesn't tax, but you're still missing the point.
     
  5. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    13,947 (6.25/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3,785
    Location:
    IA, USA
    The point is? You'll be saving money with McCain's health care plan and it won't be controlled by bureaucrats to boot.


    Let me site the first bullet from Obama's plan:
    Why does that sound so familiar? Hmm? Any ideas? That kind of mentality is what got us into this economic crisis. That is, the government requiring that lenders give loans to people that can't afford it because "every American should have a home" (or something like that).

    McCain's plan does not require covering pre-existing conditions. It mandates that people cannot be denied coverage (deny coverage of pre-existing conditions is discriminatory).


    How about we do the second bullet:
    Oooo, why does that sound familiar? It stresses the continuation of this employer coverage system that leaves the self-employed out in the rain.


    And the third:
    "Covering" with who's money? Taxpayer? Should it not be insurance payer?


    Need I continue?
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2008
    WarEagleAU says thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  6. DaMulta

    DaMulta My stars went supernova

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2006
    Messages:
    16,119 (5.31/day)
    Thanks Received:
    1,455
    Location:
    Oklahoma T-Town
    So we lock them in jail for 20 years and pay how much? When we could of had a healthcare center to treat them for their problems, and at least try to fix the real problem. Which would be cheaper in the end. Have you ever heard the amount of people that are in jail because they could not afford heathcare, and are simply nuts then comet a ton of crimes. That they would not of been committing if they have had treatment.


    Lets just say

    What if you had a daughter in college. She working lets say at a book store for 7 dollars an hour. You(just for saying) have saved up for her to go to school her entire life. But she ends up getting pregnant, and you yourself don't have a high paying job to afford for her to have that child, and neither does she. You would rather force an abortion on her, then to lean a helping hand out(with all the money you have paid in over the years)and have your grandchild?


    Don't let one rotten apple, ruin the whole pile of apples.
     
    WarEagleAU says thanks.
  7. TUngsten

    TUngsten

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,044 (0.36/day)
    Thanks Received:
    64
    Location:
    CT, USA
    Actually, no. If you have health care through your employer, your taxes will increase. There's no disputing that fact of his plan.

    How does that save money?
     
  8. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    13,947 (6.25/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3,785
    Location:
    IA, USA
    Read the site. It addresses that topic.


    All McCain is going to do is change health benefits to be included as employee compensation, therefore taxable.

    So if you make $60,000 a year and get $6000 on top of that in employer health insurance, instead of reporting income of $60,000 for the year, they have to report $66000. Considering healthcare coverage is sometimes worth more than what you actual receive in cash from a job, I believe it is only fair for it to be reported. They put a chart up showing which tax brackets would get how much they would get taxed on that $6000 with the tax credit on top of it adds up to $100s or $1000s in extra healthcare coverage. Any of that money not spent goes into a healthcare savings plan dedicated to you for future needs (not back into the government). In the end, you pay less for better coverage.

    Half the problem with the current insurance system is people don't know how much their coverage is worth--making it taxable would mandate that companies put a value on the care they offer.


    Again, the healthcare crisis is very similar to the current economic crisis. Banks are holding securities they can't effectively value so the price is inflated and the system shuts down. Health insurance is heading in the same direction because everything works on theoreticals.


    According the tables using the figures above (for a family):

    Health Tax Credit: $5,000
    Tax from Health Insurance: $1,500 (25% * $6,000)
    Amount of money going to savings account: $3,500
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2008
    WarEagleAU says thanks.
    Crunching for Team TPU
  9. mdm-adph

    mdm-adph New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,478 (0.89/day)
    Thanks Received:
    340
    Location:
    Your house.
    Oh, haven't you heard? It's the one area where conservatives like BigJohn think it's okay to be socialist -- throwing people in jail and spending piles of public money each year to maintain these jails, and taxing the hell out of people to do so.

    But -- socialism for everything else is bad, of course. However, spend as many billions of dollars worth of tax money buidling bigger and more jails, and do it as much as you want.

    Shouldn't surprise anyone in the slightest -- like I've said before, BigJohn either doesn't know what the word "hypocrisy" means, or simply doesn't care.

    Ick -- I feel disgusting, but I agree more with BigJohn here. :banghead:

    This father should have spent some of that money that he was saving up for his daughter's school, and put her on some birth control. :shadedshu

    Birth control is incredibly cheap and plentiful, and using it avoids the whole question of "who pays for an unwanted child" entirely. However, getting it for your kids requires a parent to face the facts and realize that kids are going to have sex, and I've seen that this is almost impossible for a lot of parents to do.
     
    WarEagleAU says thanks.
  10. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    13,947 (6.25/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3,785
    Location:
    IA, USA
    Socialism, capitalism, and communism have little to do with the criminal justice/correctional system. :S



    It's a subject that most people aren't comfortable talking about. :X
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  11. mdm-adph

    mdm-adph New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,478 (0.89/day)
    Thanks Received:
    340
    Location:
    Your house.
    Why not? It's government control of something that could arguably be run by private industry. Is that not socialism? :laugh:

    And that's a damn shame, because "the problem of teenage pregnancies" has got such a simple solution.
     
  12. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    13,947 (6.25/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3,785
    Location:
    IA, USA
    How could private industry make a profit imprisoning people? If they found a way, people would be imprisoned just so they could make more money. If there were a good way to privatize it, it would have been done a long time ago. I can't recall one time throughout history that correctional facitiles have been a for-profit industry.


    Yeah, a dialogue is the place to start. Spell out your expectations, listen to their concerns, and try to reach an agreement in the middle somewhere. Seriously, I think the problem is that parents expect the schools to deal with it. About the time females are capable of reproduction, they also enter that anti-authoritative phase so, the schools could talke about it for a month and the kids won't give a damn. The key with parents is that, even if they act like they aren't listening/don't care, they do but resent showing it. A little can go a long way between parent and child.

    I think it is the parents that need to go to sex ed, not the children. Parents are obviously experts but schools need to make clear that children expect their parents to set the boundaries.
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  13. WhiteLotus

    WhiteLotus

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Messages:
    6,553 (2.45/day)
    Thanks Received:
    857
    I will agree with you here, why does it always have to be the state?

    The parents should be parenting.
     
    WarEagleAU says thanks.
  14. DaMulta

    DaMulta My stars went supernova

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2006
    Messages:
    16,119 (5.31/day)
    Thanks Received:
    1,455
    Location:
    Oklahoma T-Town
    Private prisons in the United States today

    Private companies in the United States operate 264 correctional facilities, housing almost 99,000 adult offenders.[1] Companies operating such facilities include the Corrections Corporation of America, the GEO Group, Inc, Cornell Companies, and Community Education Centers. The GEO Group was formerly known as Wackenhut Securities.

    The Corrections Corporation of America (CCA) website lists a capacity of approximately 72,500 beds in 65 correctional facilities.[2] The GEO Group operates 61 facilities with a capacity of 49,000 offender beds,[3] while Cornell Companies has 79 facilities to service 19,226 adult and juvenile offenders in secure containment and community-based corrections.[4]

    Most privately run facilities are located in the southern and western portions of the United States and include both state and federal offenders.[1]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prisons#Private_prisons_in_the_United_States_today


    They are making money locking people up......
     
  15. farlex85

    farlex85 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,829 (1.73/day)
    Thanks Received:
    638
    I thought you like capitalism. :confused: Isn't leveling the playing fields rather socialist thinking......:D After all, I'm sure McCain and Obama simply worked harder......:shadedshu
     
  16. Tatty_One

    Tatty_One Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    16,840 (5.21/day)
    Thanks Received:
    2,616
    Location:
    Worcestershire, UK
    But birth control like anything else is a choice, some kids make mistakes, it's part of growing up (some just make bigger ones than others :eek:), and guess what, we all make them and we will continue to do so, I am even surprised from your wording that you have to pay ANYTHING for birth control, it's completely free here and we still get loads of teenage pregnancies.

    Not wishing to make a point personal but my oldest daughter is a single parent, OK she was not a teenager when she fell pregnant (she was 21), she is now 23 and I have the most amazing grandaughter that I couldnt live without, whether she had gone back to work or not after 6 months my feelings would not have changed..........damn some people here are like 1 step away from suggesting forced abortions, tolerance in society is what is needed not the opposite, that is exactly what causes those prisons to fill up that DaMulta mentioned, if you got to that point, you may as well use the becnhmarks for all mistakes in life, you speed in your car = life ban from driving etc etc, where does it all end?
     
    WarEagleAU, DaMulta and farlex85 say thanks.
  17. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    13,947 (6.25/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3,785
    Location:
    IA, USA
    Oh the irony! XD


    I doubt they're "making" money. Almost all of their funding comes from state/federal government. Still, I didn't know there was such a private presence in the corrections industry.


    There's nothing socialist about regulating spending. Socialism is where government plays a major role in individual wealth--like taxing the rich for the sake of giving it to the less fortunate (Robin Hood Economics).
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  18. farlex85

    farlex85 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,829 (1.73/day)
    Thanks Received:
    638
    I'm giving you a hard time. Although regulating spending is technically perhaps not a socialist ideal, the effect it would produce in this case is the goal of many socialist ideals. A level playing field, regardless of wealth. And regulating spending probably wouldn't even really work, there are always ways to get around things of that nature, politicians know best.
     
  19. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    13,947 (6.25/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3,785
    Location:
    IA, USA
    Then we will forever remain a dual-party system. :X
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  20. magibeg

    magibeg

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,000 (0.64/day)
    Thanks Received:
    203
    I find it interesting why american's want to privitize everything. Privitized health care for example is more expensive than a government system. Not to mention its easier to control and regulate that way. Remember, if its privitized they're TRYING to MAKE money off you.

    http://cad.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/45/3/358

    Even as time goes on private prisons are proving to be more expensive and are subject to less regulation than a federally run prison. I never understood the idea behind becoming a straight capitolist country when things go downhill whenever regulation is removed.

    Having a free market with regulation is not socialism, its protection from greed.
     
    WarEagleAU and farlex85 say thanks.
  21. farlex85

    farlex85 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,829 (1.73/day)
    Thanks Received:
    638
    Well at least a party system. Spending isn't all there is to that though. Black/white views of ideals, such as taxation, environment, role of government, ect. leads to stagnation in growth of those ideas, b/c it's the same stuff again and again. Democrats argue one way republicans argue another on those issues w/o reaching common ground, and the people follow the same tendencies (majority). Anyone who allows that middle ground will quickly lose the people and a chance at the election.

    That's just the thing the conservative rhetoric doesn't want government to step in in any business. It actually seems to come from the notion that greed is a good thing, as it drives progress, which of course, is in part true. If healthcare continues down the road it's on now though, it won't just be the poor that suffer, there could be disastrous effects of cooperations controlling our health.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2008
  22. mdm-adph

    mdm-adph New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,478 (0.89/day)
    Thanks Received:
    340
    Location:
    Your house.
    So, knowing that even though there actually is a pretty sizable private industry for the prison system, you still think it's better being socialized than allowing the free market to allow those better performing prisons to make the profits that they deserve? :rolleyes:

    Aye -- you didn't need to make the point personal.

    Seriously, though, that's what how you think of it? "Some kids make mistakes, it's part of growing up?"

    I'm sorry, but having an unwanted child should <i>not</i> be part of growing up.
     
  23. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    13,947 (6.25/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3,785
    Location:
    IA, USA
    It is also inferior. When industries are private, they are in competition with other businesses that offer the same service. As such, they're always trying to out do each other. That worked great up until a few years ago when all this health insurance and lawsuit BS inflated all the healthcare costs. Eliminate the sources of price inflation and we go back to being #1.
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  24. FordGT90Concept

    FordGT90Concept "I go fast!1!11!1!"

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    13,947 (6.25/day)
    Thanks Received:
    3,785
    Location:
    IA, USA
    Again, there is nothing socialized about it. If the prison system were socialist then that would make the way the entire military and government is ran socialist. The best way to put it is a brick wall where the bricks are the businesses and the mortar is the government and functions of the government. Businesses do great at most things but there's a few things they just can't do (e.g. defense and highway systems). The GDP, through taxes, pay for the services that can't be privatized because directly, they don't make money. Government is to fill in the gaps businesses cannot or will not.

    The only profit a prison makes is through labor (chain gangs and manufacturing) and they do not make much (not enough to pay for their shelter, food, medical, lawsuits, etc.). Even though they might be privately owned and operated, they're still getting 90% of their money from some form of government. That is in no way, shape, or how, socialist. It is merely filling a gap that can't be filled without outside capital.
     
    Crunching for Team TPU
  25. Bigjohn

    Bigjohn

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Messages:
    400 (0.18/day)
    Thanks Received:
    99
    Location:
    Woodstock, GA USA
    FAIL.
    You're quoting a progressive (psudo-socialist) website for that info? well, here are the facts from the horse's mouth:
    http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/19ba2f1c-c03f-4ac2-8cd5-5cf2edb527cf.htm
     

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guest)

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page